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Born To Run
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Well here it is almost the end of April and the bike is still in bits...(I guess this is what happens when you have more than one bike. A recent development for me.)

The spindle is stuck. I mean S-T-U-C-K stuck. Stuck as in not removed in 43-44 years. The past few days I’ve been hitting it with a generic version of Liquid Wrench, but no love.

The timing side nut is loose. Removed grease fittings and dust covers to get penetrant in as much as I can. The drive side nut (and spindle) is frozen. Can’t get it to budge either way. Of course this is with the rear wheel and rear disc brake removed, so I can only apply so much force before I risk toppling the bike on the center stand. I have backed the timing side nut on the spindle to be flush with the end of the spindle allowing me to use a 4lb hammer to shock it loose. Still no love.

BTW - I’m doing this to try and fit some shims ( or perhaps new bushes as well, depends on what I find) There’s a decent amount of play in the swingarm at the spindle end. Translates to much more on the wheel end. Rear end was getting squirrely and not inspiring a lot of confidence in turns....

What’s the next step? Bigger hammer? Cheater bar/pipe on the socket wrench for drive side? Heat on drive side? Bigger hammer or cheater bar is going to require me to figure out a way to secure the bike on the center stand and front wheel. Yes I know, should have gotten spindle free first before disassembling rear end. Had to remove brake arm to get enough room for hammer on spindle. Brake arm frozen on brake arm spindle, so disassemble entire rear brake to get THAT off (brake arm now pressed off it’s spindle :rolleyes )


Thanks in advance!

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

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Steve, can you "draw" it with a combination of a length of 1/2" "all thread", sockets and an impact gun? This is a picture I stole from Jonnie Green's Ton-Up Classic's page since I don't have one of my own. Though I have done it this way and also used a hydraulic press.
[Linked Image from pic20.picturetrail.com]

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Hi Steve,
I had a similarly stuck SA spindle years ago, first buy a new spindle , nut, bushes, you are going to mess up the old one.
What worked for me was heat and a bigger hammer. Even protecting the end of the spindle it will end up a little mushroomed, once it starts to move grind the end clean so it will pass through.
My SA bushes were so seized they had corroded to the steel dollies and the spindle was worn where the dollies had been rubbing it, after beating out the spindle I got the SA free, when I pressed out the dollies they took the bushes with them, it looked like it had never been lubed, indeed the grease fittings were missing.
After installing new bushes, dollies and spindle its been good ever since,I lube it with fanaticism now.
The new bushes needed a light ream after installation, the book says this is not necessary, that didnt work for me.
It was about 30 years ago, doing this now with hindsight I would have arranges some sort of Acetone ATF penetrating fluid poultice and left the whole mess to soak for a week before getting medieval.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 04/27/20 10:23 am.

71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
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Born To Run
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When I got the bike from my dad back in 2001, I neglected to grease the DS of the SA for the first couple of years (raising a family and simultaneously performing proper bike maintenance was not my forte), so I suspect this is why everything on that side is frozen.

Someone messaged me offline with the pipe and bottle jack solution. This assumes I can find two immoveable surfaces to butt the pipe and jack against after I put the rear wheel back on to move the bike....

Either that or a bigger hammer.

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

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An impact hammer or rivet gun (2x or 3x) will work many times when even the largest hammer won't, the multiple small impacts in rapid succession with a flush set in the gun against an appropriate sacrificial piece (brass, steel or even aluminum) may even save the spindle. The air hammer won't require you to reassemble the bike or support it by any supernatural means. The rapid, successive hits even seem to allow a frequently applied penetrant to work it's way in.

This has worked for me many times over the last 40 yrs. in aviation, auto and motorcycle maintenance...I'll give a hammer and drift the test first but before I damage anything I switch to an air hammer. Sometimes it takes a bit of diligence and maybe an application of heat but it usually proves out. For heat, I'll use an electric heat gun for paint stripping (like super hair drier) before an open flame so that I have better control of what I may damage.

For a drift, I keep brass and aluminum rod/bar stock around so as not to damage the end of what I'm attempting to drift out. Aluminum absorbs some of the impact so is less efficient than brass but it works in many situations. Good luck, Mark

Last edited by MarksterTT; 04/27/20 6:50 pm.
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Born To Run
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Thanks Mark -

I have compressor access, so it's time to buy an air hammer.

Cheers,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
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I think all of the OIF's that I've rescued have had frozen bushings and needed heat and persuasion with a bfh. It won't hurt to have new parts on hand.
It seems almost impossible for grease to flow from the fitting to the bush/ bobbin area. I have in the past dremel'd out the bush grease channels to allow a better flow of grease. Haven't had any back apart to check if it was successful, tho.

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When I took my swing arm apart I think it was the first time it was apart since it was built at the factory. It came apart easily. I was shocked to see there was about 1 CC of hardened grease in there. After 8,000 miles run dry, bushes and spindle were in surprisingly good shape. SA is solid with no wobble. Despite the good condition I filled it up with grease anyway.

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After 30 years I stripped my SA for a paint refresh, grease does get in there, you can see grease ooze out round the rubber seals when lubing, zero appreciable wear, some corrosion damage from condensation, the problem is out of sight out of mind ,. Once a year is enough to keep wear at bay unless you are doing loads of miles per annum.
In case you didnt know, the SA grease seal rubbers are slices from a push bike inner tube, ie , almost free if you have any dead bikes lying around.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 04/28/20 10:08 am.

71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
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It’s off!

Rapped it two times a bit harder with the 4lb persuader and she moved....no damage to spindle or nut.

Hour spent cleaning 40+ years of oil, grease and grime off of swingarm and frame bottom. Bushes are in good shape, slight bit of play between bush and steel sleeve (~ .003” - .005”) I did not measure - inserted sleeve in bush and felt for radial play.

Timing side distance piece has wear on it... ~ 3/64” step in it near inside diameter. Drive side very slight wear but can’t feel with finger nail. Bolt/spindle is a “loose” fit in the sleeves. Ends of swingarm are OK no sign of wear, guess the distance pieces get sacrificed.

Parts appear to be ok except for the timing side distance piece- thinking about reversing it when I reinstall so the swingarm has a flat surface to ride against.

My measurements are crude at best, but does this seem to be within specs?

According to the Manual, the swingarm should just fall under its own weight (I’m assuming this is greased/lubricated).

Anyone know what the acceptable spec/tolerances are for axial play at the wheel end of the swingarm?

Thanks in advance,

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
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The bushes are a nominal inch ID, the dollies/ bobbins/ should be 0.998"- 0.999" diameter.
When its all tightened the bobbins are pinched and should not rotate, the axial end play is set by the distance piece TS spacer, depending on how this is worn you will have excess axial end play or insufficient ( mine was so badly seized the bobbins were rotating against the spindle). With a dry test assemble no grease but nipped up you should not be able to twist the SA ends, absent measuring for wear with mics this test is good enough to say if the bobbins are out of spec, try this across the arc of motion, the bushes to bobbins only wear in one sector, if the bobbins are rotated 90 degrees from original findings then then any wear can be slightly offset. I hesitate to recommend new bits ( from rhymes with fossils), I fitted pattern replacements that turned out to be oversize , took ages to polish them down to size.
There has to be a tiny bit of axial play or the whole plot would be locked up.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
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Thanks Gavin. My bobbins/sleeves are nominal, but on the lower end of the specs in the Manual. Will reassemble dry and see what kind of play I have.

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...

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