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Posted By: Hermit Part Books Errors Database Project - 01/30/21 8:45 pm
Greetings!

A project has been launched to create a searchable online database of errors in Triumph parts books, service bulletins, and WS Manuals.

For more information and to view the the most current database, point your browser at:

http://www.hermit.cc/tmc/parts/errors/index.htm

After reading the introduction there, please consider taking a little time to contribute to the project. Submissions should include as much specific information as possible and you may submit them in a reply to this thread.

Also needed are persons with expertise in specific models and/or areas of mechanics to peer review entries.

Comments and suggestions welcome.

To Err is Human, To Correct is Divine!

Cheers!
Posted By: Morrisey Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 01/31/21 5:23 am
One of the big problems with the parts, which unfortunately your worthy project won't address, is that Triumph often changed parts partway though a model year run. The parts book often only reflects the first number, not the change. A good example is the change from BS to UN threadform which started in 68. It seems they used up all the old stocks before changing, so some early 68 bikes have different threads to those on later ones.
Posted By: BigBars Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 01/31/21 7:43 am
Good work Bruce. I'm sure folks on here might have manuals full of annotations. Maybe they could send through photos?

I'm happy to help, if you need just shout.

I've got some for the trident I'll pass on.
Posted By: Hermit Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/01/21 1:45 am
Morrisey,

True, the database will never know what day Frank the fender guy on line 2 ran out of BS bolts and changed over to UN.

But, in our database each manual will have it's own "boot notes" which could include information like such-and-such changes happened... this year, in such a month, with such a VIN, etc.

That information is available with one click wherever the name of the Replacement Parts Catalogue (RPC) appears anywhere - in the index, on the page with it's errors, etc.

And meanwhile and most importantly the database will tell you what part is SUPPOSED to be used there! And perhaps also that the drawing is wrong, or what's missing, etc.
Posted By: Hermit Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/01/21 1:53 am
BigBars,

You bet I want help! Do you know what I know about Tridents? I'll put it all down here, in parenthesis: ().

In fact, I know next to nothing about any models apart from the one I ride (and frankly, damn little about that one compared with what others here know). That's why I'm depending on the expertise and knowledge of other people in the classic Triumph community like yourself.

To the extent the project succeeds or fails will be up to the community.

So, if you know of Trident parts book/ws manual/sb errors, by all means, start your list. Right now I'm hard at work creating the software to do the job and I'm confident that all the technical obstacles can be overcome, but the information about the errors will have to come from somewhere.

When you're writing down errors, please try to include as much as possible of the following

All the info on the book's title page(including that tiny little Triumph part no at the bottom of the page if it's there).
Document part#
Page, reference, fig where the error occurs
Part# (if applicable to the error)
Dscription of the problem

This project can definitely be done. Rome wasn't built in a day. It will take a little time, but it can be done if enough people chip in.
Posted By: DavidP Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/02/21 5:45 am
Y'know what would be very valuable, if it even exists. How about a cross reference for casting numbers to actual part numbers?
I admit that they are often only one number different, but we've all tried to find a correct center stand at a swap meet. There is a casting number on each leg, and neither has anything to do with the part number for the complete assembly.
Posted By: DavidP Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/02/21 5:46 am
And a cross reference between BSA and Triumph for the SAME PART.
Posted By: Hermit Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/02/21 1:30 pm
Hi David,

Good suggestion - and the database model could certainly accommodate that kind of info. Please post any such info that you have. Just remember that I will need Triumph parts book part# in which each part is listed as well as the page, reference#, figure, and Triumph part number as well as its casting number and/or BSA equiv.

Cheers!
Posted By: DavidP Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/07/21 5:17 am
I do have a couple of Triumph revisions to the 72 T150 and T150V parts catalog, dated July 19, 1972. If these are of interest I can scan and post copies.
Posted By: John Healy Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/07/21 5:02 pm
The first thing you need to do is recognize that there were 3 parts books for a given production year: Domestic, General Export and USA. For the USA parts books there were two importers: Johnson Motors (west coast models) and The Triumph Corporation (east coac models). Each had their own specificaions for some models. For some years there were supplements specifiying east and west coast iterations. On top of this The Triumph Coprporation issued a multi-page document for each model and model year correcting mistakes made in the parts books. Some of them are 6, or more pages, single spaced. Most of the parts books were prepared long before final descsions on production specifications were made. In some cases this led to chaos.

Then there is a group of years where parts books were printed that contained so many mistakes that they were reprinted. In some manner, or way, the dicarder books found thier way into local salvage houses (MCE comes to mind) that specialized in buying production scrap. Has anyone that is reading this been in MCE's celler? Selling rejected parts, and scrap to local motorcycle trade was a small side occupation for a few factory workers. A lot of these parts that failed inspection, and the odd rejected parts books found their way in to the market only to make the whole what-fits-what, and what is new-old-stock a whole different problem.

Then there are hundreds of parts that share the same part number with different specifications. The classic one is W1332 (37-1332) which has 3 iterations. The other is the tach and speedo bracket 97-1946 of which there are 3 iterations. This is an exercise in itself.

I'am getting a headache, but I have had the same headache for 50 odd years dealing with the way Triumph handled their parts. Where is Jack Shortland, Triumph Export parts manager, when you need him? Passed some years ago. That's why any Triumph dealer "worth his salt" has parts books full of notes and changes.
Posted By: Irish Swede Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/07/21 10:23 pm
John, in other words, it's a hopeless situation?
Posted By: John Healy Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/07/21 10:57 pm
I am impressed with Bruce's work so far. It should be book-marked on any Triumph owner's computer.

I have compiled parts books from 1963 until 1982 into one book. I have been working on it, off-and-on, for 35 years. There must be at least 1,000 hours in the project. That only includes the unit 650-750 models. This leaves the 200, 250, 350-500 (both unit and non-unit models), 650 non-unit and triples left to do.

To further confuse things changes were made on the production floor that were not documented on drawings. Also changes were made on drawings that were never implemented on the production floor. This was especially a problem around the years where engineer was were made at Umberslade Hall that never made it to the Triumph production.
Posted By: desco Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/07/21 11:39 pm
Sounds like a Sisyphean task.
Posted By: Hermit Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/08/21 2:13 pm
Sorry to be grumpy, but what I find pointless and useless is folks sitting around complaining about parts book errors and not doing anything about it.

Do people think this is rocket science? Well, if using words and making lists of stuff is rocket science then we're all rocket scientists.

I've written over fifty full-blown database application programs for businesses, schools and universities, and hospitals. Nearly all of them were way more complicated than TED. Many of them require over a dozen tables to represent the data. TED uses a simple many-to-many model - one book can have many errors, and one error can be in many books. Three tables, that's it that's all. Piece of cake for a database programmer.

So instead of us all sitting around nay saying, why don't we pick up pencil and paper and get to work? If you know something, say something.

Just two things - 1) look in TED to see if the info you have is already there before going to the trouble, 2) be sure you include specific info, such as full title, part#, and date of the publication as well as page, ref, and figure and a description of the problem. Don't assume that I know anything about the problem because I assuredly don't. I will do my best to verify your info and then add it to TED.

Replacement Parts Catalogues (RPCs), service bulletins (SBs), and WS Manuals are all fair game. Esoteric is fine, but let's make sure to get all the low-hanging fruit. This project is as much for the next generation of Triumph lovers as it is for us.

If the project fails don't look at me - look in the mirror. I really care, don't you?


Latest TED update published last night: www.hermit.cc/tmc/parts/errors/index.htm
Posted By: Hermit Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/08/21 2:16 pm
Originally Posted by DavidP
I do have a couple of Triumph revisions to the 72 T150 and T150V parts catalog, dated July 19, 1972. If these are of interest I can scan and post copies.

David, of great interest Have no info as of yet on those models. Beam it up! And thanks in advance.
Posted By: John Healy Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/08/21 4:41 pm
Bruce the basis for this already exists in the form of the addendum sheets supplied by TriCor for the East Coast parts books. These are errors know by the distributor at the time they launched the model. They cover most of the popular east coast models, and years. Get yourself a set of these and you will be far ahead of the game.

If I was to set out to do this I would forget the data base and make PDF (you can edit PDF's) copies of each year, and model, parts books with the changes made in the book. These would include, where appropriate (basically the east coast models), the changes listed on the addendum sheets. This way someone working on that year, and model, had instant reference to the part in question. This is what a working set of dealers parts books would look like. This is how they survived all these years. Then you would need a set from the West Coast books, the General Export books and the domestic books.

I have learned that the simple placement of a washer can ruin freindships.
Posted By: Hermit Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/08/21 11:00 pm
Hello John,
The addendum sheets sound quite interesting - I will definitely look into that.

As to PDFs, what you propose would be ideal in many ways, but making corrections to PDFs is tedious, requires expensive software, and only works with unlocked PDFs, which are pretty rare. Then of course there's always the copyright considerations and how to distribute.

A good database program makes it easy to add and edit information and updates to online web pages can be made as frequently as necessary.

I hope people will be satisfied to mark up their own paper copies at home. If PDFs can be parlayed into a satisfactory solution I will leave that to someone else in the community.

Thanks for the addendum suggestion. I do hope people will respond with their own error experiences because they would tend to be the most important and commonly-encountered ones.
Posted By: BigBars Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/09/21 7:28 am
FYI, for unlocking PDF files, google is your friend figuratively and literally. You can open a PDF (even a protected one) in Chrome and then print it to a new PDF, now without any protection....
Posted By: Hermit Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/09/21 1:42 pm
Hey BigBars, thanks for that very useful piece of information.

The fact remains, though, that making corrections to pdf's would be a cumbersome approach for all the other reasons which I mentioned.

I should mention also that TED's error lists are searchable, copy & paste-able, and eventually downloadable as .csv (retrievable with any spreadsheet program) as well as html - all without any concerns over copyright violation.

I've started looking around for the addendums that Mr. Healy mentioned. So far I've found just two and neither seems to relate to any parts books that I've been able to find for the years they cover.

http://www.tioc.org/partsbookstriumph/tsb-tri-1964-catalog-update-sheetsNo2.pdf

https://partsbooks.britishonly.com/...TriumphPartsToolsAccessoriesCombined.pdf (pajge 3)

Anyone have an idea where the mother lode of these documents might be?
Posted By: Nick H Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/09/21 1:57 pm
"I have learned that the simple placement of a washer can ruin freindships."
John Healy
Hysterical!
Posted By: John Healy Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/11/21 11:34 pm
Quote
"I have learned that the simple placement of a washer can ruin freindships."
John Healy
Hysterical!

There are two washers on a 1963-70 650 twin that gets UK, and some US, "experts" in-a-twist. Now I have found when it comes to some real type-A UK Triumph "experts" when told by an American (what the Hxll do we know about Triumph's, now really) that his washers are wrong, they loose it. You know the reaction where the veins start bulging out of their necks. Been there, done that!

Quote
I've started looking around for the addendums that Mr. Healy mentioned. So far I've found just two and neither seems to relate to any parts books that I've been able to find for the years they cover.

http://www.tioc.org/partsbookstriumph/tsb-tri-1964-catalog-update-sheetsNo2.pdf

The above update sheet refers to Triumph 650 1964 #2 in the series:

http://www.tioc.org/partsbookstriumph/pb-tri-650-1964-no2%2099-0821.pdf

So if you found the mother load there would be in the range of 50 of them for the Triumph models. But the job doesn't start there. You still have to gather the ones for the US West Coast, General Export and Domestic.

You also have to consider all of the individual bulletins published over the years to correct the corrections and updated part numbers, part numbers with several iteration of the parts, etc. I still think paper is the way to go with this. There would be no problem with copyrights updating the addendum sheets. That way if someone was restoring a 1964 650 he would have all the information in one place.

David Gaylin used to sell parts books that included the addendum sheets for the East Coast models. I think he called himself Motorcycle Days.

He was able to get a huge collection of paper from the dumpster when Baltimore closed. Several years back he sold the collection off piece by piece on e-bay and private sales. I don't know where all of the paper went. I wanted to buy it to add to my collection but he wanted too much money so I passed.
Posted By: Irish Swede Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/12/21 1:06 am
So...Gaylin made his money on Triumph's history with his books, then SOLD the data sheets for even MORE money, for the loss of FUTURE Triumph historians?
Posted By: koan58 Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/12/21 1:54 am
Please forgive me John, if I’m wrong, but I suspect that you’re getting at the fact that not only were errors in parts books through simple silly mistakes, but major errors exist due to differences between manufacturing practice and design.

I’m thinking particularly of the rocker spindle/washer arrangement, that you have mentioned before.
As the changes weren’t done properly by Triumph in the first place, how would original part numbers help?

I think it needs to be much more than a simple database, it needs hotlinks to deal with specific issues.
Not every issue is absolutely resolvable, say different valid opinions exist, so such links would enable folk to make a judgement.
Posted By: John Healy Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/12/21 3:29 pm
Quote
Please forgive me John, if I’m wrong, but I suspect that you’re getting at the fact that not only were errors in parts books through simple silly mistakes, but major errors exist due to differences between manufacturing practice and design.


You have no need for forgiveness. There are many layers to a onion and we cannot see, or understand, the whole story until all layers are peeled back.

I have little interest in whether a washer was used, or not, but with the builder's workmanship. I am more impressed with a bike builder like Dave Perewitz who's creations can be ridden daily, than a trailered "perfect" restoration.

With the current use of electronic ignitions and electric start kits I spend more time trying to make people understand that you need a good battery, not a new one.
I have always got a chuckle regarding the specification in GENERAL DATA of 21-13/16" of the Main bearing (drive side) in the 63-70 650 WSM. Timing side says 2-13/16".
Posted By: John Healy Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/12/21 6:42 pm
I had privelage to have personal contact with Brian Jones chief engineer at Triumph Meriden, the worker's cooperative and LF Harris. For 5 odd years Coventry Spares Ltd traded as LF Harris International here in the States. I used a lot of that time asking him questions. One that still stands out was the answer he gave when I asked him about the valve stem clearances listed in the workshop manual, "I have never looked a Workshop manual." I told them what they were and he answered, "That's not right."
Posted By: Hermit Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/13/21 2:18 pm
I am constantly amazed by how much you guys know about mechanics and Triumphs - two subjects about which I obviously know very, little.

However, it's pretty obvious that you guys know little about database design or computer programming, a couple of the skills which I have managed to pick up on along the way.

Koan58 - if you actually take a few minutes to look at TED you'll see that I included demonstrations of my program's ability to publish unlimited additional information via hyperlinks. In fact, TED can link every document (RPC, SB, WS Man or any other) in its database to a unique webpage for that document. And that webpage can include text, images, internal links (links to other documents and/or parts in the TED database), and external links - links to anything accessible out there on the internet: a post on a forum, a YouTube video, a web page, an image, or even a sound file. Get it? TED talks. Oh, never mind.

Likewise, TED can link each individual error in the database directly to an image and/or to it's own webpage, which can include text and as many images and as many links to anything else on the Internet as it takes to explain the particulars of an error.

Can a piece of paper in your hand do that? I think not.

Please, look at the demo! I'll walk you through it...

1) Bring up the TED index page (www.hermit.cc/tmc/parts/errors/index.htm)

2) Scroll down to 1969 and the SPC7 parts book entry. Notice TED can keep notes on every document - take the "Document Notes" link

3) Notice that the document notes page can include links to, well, anything.

4) Go back to TED's index and click on the link "6 issues" beneath the TED entry for SPC7..

5) You're now looking at the list of document errors for SPC7.

6) Click on the "Error Notes" link for the last error in the list (Error #100204)

7) Now you're looking at the demo notes on error 100204.

8) I've included links on this page to Koan58's first post in this thread, as well as a direct link to an image on the Baxter server, a direct link to Baxter's product page for the part, and a link to a YouTube video on how to position the inner quadrant on a Triumph 5-speed.

(Yes, I know - wrong model, wrong part. It's a DEMO!)

So let's just lay to rest the notion that there's anything so complicated about parts book errors
that they can't be represented by a "simple database" like TED. There is NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING about a parts book error that TED cannot convey.

Furthermore, TED can travel to anywhere on the planet at the speed of light and then be converted to a piece of paper using a ubiquitous device known as a printer. Why, even reverb could snag a copy of an error list without having to make a two-day (one-way) ride on a flat tire on his 1949 Triumph (hi reverb! smile good-natured kidding).

Now, speaking of error lists, I see no one has posted a link to the "mother lode" of those ephemeral parts list addendum. The operative phrase regarding those seems to be "if you can get your hands on them".

But it does make me wonder why, since Mr. Healy himself was a Triumph dealer and has been involved with Triumph since the late 1950's, and since he obviously has at least some of these documents
in his possession, and since he has said that copyright is not an issue, why he hasn't simply published them on his website?

And you Trident owners - have you seen what Mr. Healy said about YOUR parts book errors? Perhaps even the unobtainium addendum won't be of much help for your bikes. What're you going to do when Mr. Klemph is no longer willing or able to convert all your erroneous parts numbers? Are they still making good Trident parts men? What does it say about the future of Tridents, or Triumphs in general? Plexiglas, that's what.

And have you guys thought about what the likelihood is of one of these Triumph error correction addendum to be error-free? Personally I'd have more faith in a list of parts errors crowd-sourced from you guys.

They say you can't teach old dogs new tricks. I say (in my 74th year), it all depends on the dog.

You guys have fun swapping Triumph parts error horror stories. Actions speak louder than words, and being a man of action I have lots of other projects to move on to.

Tail light.
Posted By: TinkererToo Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/13/21 2:30 pm
Don't worry Bruce,
You do right! All of us afflicted by anno domini will take some useful information to the underside of soil, obviously some more so than others, but trying to get as much as possible in an accessible form has got to be a good thing. There will be errors in the errors, of course, but those who know should be able to minimise this (in a similar way to what is done in Wikipedia?).
My twopenn'orth,
Mick.
Posted By: desco Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/13/21 4:48 pm
What's TED?
Posted By: John Healy Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/14/21 7:11 pm
Hermit, so the first TED RDC I scrolled down to was
RDC (99-2251) 1974 750 #100174 page 35
ref. # 13. 57-4550 listed the correct part number is 57-4791

Good luck trying to do that! 57-4791 is wider and has the groove
for the locating circlip used in the later iteration of the layshaft.

57-4791 is used with the 57-4900 5 speed layshaft. Please note that the related parts for the early layshaft are also listed improperly.

All of my references have been written in my parts books, and cover more than was given to us in the addendum sheets. If you want to come down and copy them your more than welcome.

I live by Henry Fords words: "Never complain never explain. But I make exceptions. "At 82 my work load still includes working 7 days a week (one quarter of a day Sunday). Now that I am semi-retired I typically work half a day monday thru saturday: That's 8am to 8pm. This includes servicing over 300 dealers for Triumph, Norton and BSA parts and over 1,000 Vincent customers. Writing software for our business system and maintaining 2 Linux servers. We also publish quarterly magazine: Vintage Bike for the TIOC.

With the Covid we are short staffed and the staff we have have been working 60 plus hours a week. What was a stressful business has become even more so. We are constantly chasing shipments. Customs has become a nightmare. Having to arrange for shipments be trucked from Europe to the UK because freight rates from Europe have become punitive and now with Brexit freight is not getting out of the EU into England.

We have had more shipments lost in the last year than we have had in 50 plus years of business. Collecting insurance monies for thousands of dollars can take 3 to 4 months and then only if you stay on their case. Meanwhile you are out of product.

And then the phone rings and someone want us to explain how to time his magneto on a Vincent, or diagnosis his electronic ignition, that has never changed a light bulb...
Posted By: TinkererToo Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/15/21 9:43 am
Hello John,
The 1974 T140 manual lists the layshaft as being 57-4900, the late one, so the gears listed for reference would be the wrong ones too. AFAIK the late layshaft came in referenced by service bulletin #439 at engine number EH33674, May 1973, is this wrong?
Mick.
Originally Posted by John Healy
Then there is a group of years where parts books were printed that contained so many mistakes that they were reprinted. In some manner, or way, the dicarder books found thier way into local salvage houses (MCE comes to mind) that specialized in buying production scrap. Has anyone that is reading this been in MCE's celler? Selling rejected parts, and scrap to local motorcycle trade was a small side occupation for a few factory workers. A lot of these parts that failed inspection, and the odd rejected parts books found their way in to the market only to make the whole what-fits-what, and what is new-old-stock a whole different problem.

This is one good thread.. Yes I have been a few times in MCE's celler or basement in the 1980's. it was good experience to haggle with Sid and I still have some parts NOS BSA parts that I bought from him. I must have been lucky cause they fit.
Posted By: BigBars Re: Part Books Errors Database Project - 02/15/21 7:38 pm
Originally Posted by Hermit
You guys have fun swapping Triumph parts error horror stories. Actions speak louder than words, and being a man of action I have lots of other projects to move on to.

Tail light.

Keep up the good work Hermit, the project will be fantastic, even if those with deep experience can find some difficult to capture edge cases, its going to be fantastic in 99% of the problems found. If we try to throw out data simply into the forums most will be lost exact to the few who search long and hard. your project can make this knowledge last....
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