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Posted By: splash Clutch cable travel - 12/19/20 7:14 am
How far should this lever travel? Something just ain’t right. This is the bottom of travel in picture for mine and it doesn’t travel much further up from here. The pull on the clutch handle seems much shorter than I can remember. If I go too tight with the adjustment it goes about half way and makes this click/pop sound again as it suddenly losses tension but does not come loose at the bottom end by gear box as it feels like it did at the top of the clutch handle. I been fighting this issue for some time now off and on. I just don’t understand. Is a part worn out in the mechanism assembly in picture causing this lever not to go down all the way? If I loose cable enough I can easily pull it down with a screwdriver blade in the inspection hole, sloppy. I seem to remember at one time this lever in picture was about half way of the inspection hole. See picture below.

https://ibb.co/7jgCxdq
Posted By: dave jones Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/19/20 9:04 am
My bike did the popping thing and it is cured by a full clutch pushrod adjustment. This is the procedure where you slacken the handlebar adjustment right off and then do the clutch pressure plate adjustment.

My 1967 bike also suffered from a lack of clutch cable travel. The clutch dragged really badly. In my case it was the cable nipple at the gearbox end getting caught on the abutment that screws into the top of the outer gearbox cover. I think that the cable nipple position is lower down on your bike so this might not be able to happen.

Dave
Posted By: Stein Roger Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/19/20 9:04 am
Yes the mechanism may well be worn. Replacement is the cure.
BUT, have you followed the correct installation procedure? You need to slacken off the cable completely, then go to the primary side and remove the inspection cover. Release the 9/16" locknut and back it out a bit. Now screw the adjuster in until you feel it touching the pushrod. Back the screw out half a turn and set the locknut. Take up the slack in the cable and all should be well.
That's a strange looking cable though. I use Venhill Featherlight cables, they work great.

If that doesn't work, ask Bill "Hawaiian Tiger" if you can contact him. He's a good guy and I miss him.

SR
Posted By: L.A.B. Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/19/20 11:12 am
Originally Posted by splash
If I go too tight with the adjustment it goes about half way and makes this click/pop sound again as it suddenly losses tension but does not come loose at the bottom end by gear box as it feels like it did at the top of the clutch handle.

The click at the end of the lever travel is typical of an incorrectly adjusted pushrod as dave jones says.



The cable 'nipple' in your photo is a bodge-up (crimped wire cable ferrule).
[Linked Image from i.ebayimg.com]
Posted By: Hugh Jörgen Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/19/20 12:58 pm
Thanks for the Tech Tips link L.A.B..

The fix is straightforward (especially if you have that cool socket).
Out of curiosity, I take it the clicking sound is the lifter skipping back a dimple?
Posted By: L.A.B. Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/19/20 2:21 pm
Originally Posted by Hugh Jörgen
Out of curiosity, I take it the clicking sound is the lifter skipping back a dimple?

If the pushrod is under adjusted then the cable has to be over adjusted to compensate which advances the 'at rest' position of the lifter arm (and looks as if it is in the photo) the balls, therefore, are already partially climbing the ramps before the lifter mechanism begins to operate so the balls reach the ends of the ramps probably causing them to jump back or skid before the lifter arm stops rotating and I believe that is what causes the clicking sound.
Posted By: Hugh Jörgen Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/19/20 4:29 pm
Fits with the comment "probably got some new plates in it".
Posted By: kevin Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/19/20 4:54 pm
Originally Posted by Hugh Jörgen
The fix is straightforward (especially if you have that cool socket).

hugh, sears used to sell those in a set-- hollow head socket wrenches. i foolishly never bought them when craftsman was still around in quality. they are hard to locate these days and generally expensive, but i found a set of five for US$72

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

https://www.misterworker.com/en-us/usag/set-of-5-hollow-offset-socket-wrenches-291-n-se5/9590.html

i've always used a socket held in a pair of vise grips for the same purpose, but its a clumsy bodge.
Posted By: Hugh Jörgen Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/19/20 5:11 pm
Cool. Thanks Kevin.
Hey. Clumsy bodge = SOP in my garage.
Posted By: Stein Roger Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/19/20 5:31 pm
Originally Posted by kevin
Originally Posted by Hugh Jörgen
The fix is straightforward (especially if you have that cool socket).

hugh, sears used to sell those in a set-- hollow head socket wrenches. i foolishly never bought them when craftsman was still around in quality. they are hard to locate these days and generally expensive, but i found a set of five for US$72

i've always used a socket held in a pair of vise grips for the same purpose, but its a clumsy bodge.
Nice tool I suppose but I never used anything but a 9/16" socket and a screwdriver. Or a spanner if the primary cover is off.
Once I have the adjustment I spin the socket and nut in with my fingers while holding the screwdriver. Then I install the T-handle and simply nip it up.

SR
Posted By: L.A.B. Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/19/20 5:34 pm
Originally Posted by kevin
hugh, sears used to sell those in a set-- hollow head socket wrenches. i foolishly never bought them when craftsman was still around in quality. they are hard to locate these days and generally expensive, but i found a set of five for US$72

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

https://www.misterworker.com/en-us/usag/set-of-5-hollow-offset-socket-wrenches-291-n-se5/9590.html

That's a metric set, none of which are close to 9/16".

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Facom-75...3828232?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10
Posted By: splash Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/19/20 7:15 pm
Wish I could get a hold of Hawaiian tiger. Here was the only way I had contact with him. I had his return address on a box he sent me with Wit sockets inside but tossed it thinking if I needed to send him something I could just ask for it. He is an over the top nice guy like that. Someone must have really got under his skin.

Fellas, thanks for all the helpful tips and a much better understanding now. I’ll have to use the socket in vice grip method. Last time I took the primary cover off.
Posted By: kevin Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/19/20 7:25 pm
here's the american set. stanley, 10-piece. US$145, set of 10

https://www.amazon.com/Stanley-Prot...et+wrench&qid=1608405746&sr=8-11

i don't know why these things are so expensive.
Posted By: splash Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/19/20 7:38 pm
Oh, and about the different look at bottom end cable... ball popped off on me one ride months ago. I order new cable. Waited a week to come in. Lasted a month or two and wham, same f’n thing. I was hot about it! A friend had a wonderful suggestion to go buy a stainless steel cable from one of these deep sea fishing supply stores down by the harbor and they have crimps that hold some pretty heavy f’ing fish. I was SOLD! Under $10 investment working awesome. Same thing at the top of the handle as well.
Posted By: splash Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/19/20 7:40 pm
Thanks Kevin but I’ll save the money... that is ridiculous in my humble opinion.
Posted By: kevin Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/19/20 7:51 pm
well, that's the reason i still use the socket and the vise grips.
Posted By: L.A.B. Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/19/20 8:17 pm
A less expensive 9/16" deep offset ring* spanner fits my T140 and would be the same for a 650 I'd have thought.
*(US = 'box-end' wrench)

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
Posted By: TR7RVMan Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/19/20 9:53 pm
Hi Splash, A few thoughts. I have great interest in clutch cables & durability.

First, exactly what brand of clutch cable were you using prior?

The strength of the cable wire is seldom a problem, but the end attachments can vary greatly on how easily they pull off.

Your home made cable may look odd, but could prove durable. Time will tell. In every case the cable will need lube. I'd use motor oil. It tends to work well * allows free return of cable & the lever which is important.

It looks like your lever did not have enough free play during clutch adjustment. That always leads to the click. Click happens when balls run onto the flat part of the cam, out of the dimple. That never happens with proper adjustment. But if it does, few things can happen. First you run out of effective clutch release, depending on how far out the rod adjustment was. Next, the ball can set on top of flat & not allow the lever to return. In this case you have to use a screwdriver or the like & push the lever down through the trans fill hole. The cam has a washer & cotter pin that retains the 2 halves together. This can be bent or compromised. In many cases the cam runs out of proper travel & doesn't want to rotate further. This puts great strain on cable.

Cam wear generally consists of wear in the center hole where retainer & return spring are. The lost motion allows sideways movement of lever rather than forcing lever to rotate cam. I've only seen this a few times. If all adjustments & lever fulcrum distance, cable etc are all perfect, then worn cam is suspect. I doubt your cam is worn. I've covered 36k miles on my bike & cam still works perfectly. But keep that in mind if all else is good.

Also the rod length & adjuster screw length are very important. If adjuster screw sticks out too far it will hit the plug in primary cover. You can see wear mark on inside of plug & this can be tested with grease as well. Put grease on end of adjuster screw head. Screw in plug. Pull lever. Check for grease transfer. You want a good .020" or more wiggle room to allow for expansion etc. This is very common with aftermarket rods. Shorten slotted end of screw as needed & re slot.

Adjust rod as explained in Rabers video. Check the end of screw clearance as above.

Regarding the special tool Rabers uses, I've adjusted hundreds of clutches without it. I own the tool now & it works good, but it's a luxury tool for sure. The point is to get the rod clearance right no matter what tool you use.

On an aside is the crimp on your stainless cable steel? Should cable break can you fish end out with magnet? It falls into cover where the old speedo drive was. Some leave it there. I don't. I fish it out.

Again, please respond on your prior cable brand. Thank you!
Don
Posted By: Dibnah Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/20/20 8:18 am
I use a cranked ring spanner as per LAB, but the offset isn't as deep, so the process is awkward. I've also used a box spanner. Would be useful to be able to check the clearance after tightening.

Can't be that difficult to find a Brit bike mechanic on a particular Hawaiian Island. I'm sure Bill mentioned his home island on here.

Edit: Maui, it's in his posting profile.
Posted By: Stuart Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/20/20 11:02 am
Hi,
Originally Posted by splash
I’ll have to use the socket in vice grip method.
Even that isn't necessary.

If you go for a "box end wrench", be aware different makes have different o.d. around the ring and different angles between ring and handle, some of the latter scrape the chaincase plug thread. Amhikt. eek Or here's the method I used for a long time ...:-

When turning adjuster screw clockwise to find end of pushrod, hold the screwdriver only between thumb and forefinger. Then, once the adjuster screw's up against the pushrod you won't be able to turn it any further. thumbsup

The recommended 1/2-turn anti-clockwise to leave some clearance between screw and pushrod isn't precision engineering, approximate will do ...

Fit the screw locknut up to the pressure plate, check 1/2-turn clearance is still present; absent box end wrench or similar, note adjuster screw slot position then tighten nut with socket and standard ratchet, T-handle, whatever.

Withdraw socket and observe adjuster screw slot position; did it move when you tightened the locknut? If it did, loosen the locknut again, turn the adjuster screw anti-clockwise a little more than before and tighten the locknut again. Observe adjuster screw slot position; is it now in about the right position to give about the 1/2-turn clearance? If yes, thumbsup move on to adjusting cable.

Btw, assuming your bike has the standard '70 chromed clutch lever clamped around the left handlebar, be aware the distance between the centre of the pivot and the centre of the cable nipple should be 7/8". There are some pattern levers with greater than 1" centres, these over-rotate the "Clutch lever" and balls in the gearbox case, by pulling too much cable, potentially leading to the balls dropping out of the clutch withdrawal mechanism. frown

Hth.

Regards,
Posted By: DMadigan Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/20/20 5:13 pm
After you have positioned the adjuster screw, if you pull the clutch lever to load the screw you can tighten the nut without the screw turning.
Posted By: splash Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/21/20 3:11 pm
Hey Don, I don’t recall the brand name of the cable. I unwrapped it and threw the wrapper away. Sorry man.
Posted By: TR7RVMan Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/21/20 10:51 pm
Hi Splash, Thanks for reply. No problem.

How does your clutch work after going over rod & lever adjustments?
Don
Posted By: 2ndchildhood Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/22/20 4:24 am
Quote
hugh, sears used to sell those in a set-- hollow head socket wrenches. i foolishly never bought them when craftsman was still around in quality. they are hard to locate these days and generally expensive, but i found a set of five for US$72

McMaster-Carr sells them in both inch and metric:
https://www.mcmaster.com/wrenches/socket-wrenches/?SrchEntryWebPart_InpBox=wrench
Posted By: splash Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/22/20 5:53 am
Originally Posted by TR7RVMan
Hi Splash,
How does your clutch work after going over rod & lever adjustments?
Don

I think I over corrected. Clutch is way up too high on the lever. In other words, as soon as I pull on the lever it opens the basket almost as if the basket is not closing all the way when I really goose it. The first small amount of lever travel does it all and if I pull all the way to handle bar grip there is no difference. Clutch engage and disengage is way too far at the beginning of the lever. Should I adjust and second guess myself on the pushrod nut or should I adjust at the top cable tension by lever?

I also noticed the more the nut is adjusted (out?) the more the kick start slips. Maybe it is (in?) which seems to make more sense as it is forcing the basket open.

I'm trying to find the happy medium smile
Posted By: TR7RVMan Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/22/20 9:50 am
Hi Splash, There is no happy medium. Proper operation friction point, lever feel is a product of correct assembly & correct parts.

Going back to basics.

Not too much wear in spider, cush hub & retlated parts.

The 1.400 nominal thickness determines spring nut position.

Correct 650 springs set to depth by the calculation.

Correct push rod adjustment. 1/2-5/8 turn. With free play in cable.

Free play in cable. If you have wrong lever extra cable free play can compensate.

Suppose lever is correct. If all the other items are correct, the lever will feel right. The friction point will feel right. It will not slip & it will release properly as expected.

You cannot cheat physics. The more from correct any of the above is, the worse clutch will work.

Did you follow Raber’s video exactly?

If you followed Rabers video exactly & friction point is too far out, the spring nuts need to be deeper. Or springs are too weak. The 1.400” calculation is not a myth. It really works. Correct springs are imperative. Old springs are way better than incorrect new springs.

I know you had wear in spider. I’d consider using the calculation then 1 turn deeper to compensate.

If spring coil #s , wire diameter & overall length are correct the springs will be correct.

If springs are too strong or nuts adjusted too deep friction point will be too close to grip. Again... this is with all good parts & perfect rod & cable adjustment.

If your adjustments are not perfect the lever feel & friction point will reflect that.

If rod has clearance, lever has free play & clutch slips, the problem is in clutch. Spring tension is too light and/or wear in other parts.

So, following Raber exactly what does clutch do? We’ll go from there.
Don

1973 Tiger 750
Posted By: Stuart Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/22/20 10:01 am
Hi,
Originally Posted by splash
[quote=TR7RVMan]I think I over corrected. Clutch is way up too high on the lever.
as soon as I pull on the lever it opens the basket almost as if the basket is not closing all the way when I really goose it.
confused What do you mean by, "really goose it"?

The procedure is detailed in the 1970 650 Owner's Handbook, page 18, "To adjust the clutch operating mechanism".

Did you follow my suggestion to adjust the clutch screw holding the screwdriver only between a thumb and forefinger? If the driver is held with more fingers, ime it isn't always easy to detect when the screw starts to lift the pressure plate; if the screw has started to lift the pressure plate, the1/2-turn anti-clockwise won't be accurate.

When adjusting the cable at the handlebar lever, how are you measuring the "approximately 1/8 in. free movement in the cable" detailed in the handbook? Fwiw, I measure by pressing on the lever with the end of one finger then measuring the gap between the lever and the pivot casting - one finger pressing on the lever will detect when the cable "free movement" is taken up as much greater pressure is required to actually lift the clutch pressure plate ("open the basket").

Hth.

Regards,
Posted By: desco Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/22/20 3:41 pm
It's hard to figure how well that home made clutch cable is doing it's job. You will save yourself a lot of grief and frustration by fitting a correct cable. It will not be cheap but at least you will know that is not part of the problem. There are what, 4 or 5 adjustment on the clutch. Each has to be pretty much perfect. Until you have all the correct parts and know they are all working correctly you are just beating your head against the wall.
Good luck.
Posted By: splash Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/22/20 5:30 pm
Originally Posted by desco
It's hard to figure how well that home made clutch cable is doing it's job. You will save yourself a lot of grief and frustration by fitting a correct cable. It will not be cheap but at least you will know that is not part of the problem. There are what, 4 or 5 adjustment on the clutch. Each has to be pretty much perfect. Until you have all the correct parts and know they are all working correctly you are just beating your head against the wall.
Good luck.

Some of these parts shops are way too proud IMHO. I'd rather buy stainless steel solder and mold my own ball at the end of this cable than buy some marked up 900% profit cable that's just might leave me on the side of the road somewhere again. Can't and won't talk me into it bud.
Posted By: Mark Z Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/22/20 11:17 pm
Originally Posted by kevin
here's the american set. stanley, 10-piece. US$145, set of 10

https://www.amazon.com/Stanley-Prot...et+wrench&qid=1608405746&sr=8-11

i don't know why these things are so expensive.

I don't get how this sort of wrench helps - it doesn't look like you can put a screwdriver through the socket.
Originally Posted by L.A.B.
A less expensive 9/16" deep offset ring* spanner fits my T140 and would be the same for a 650 I'd have thought.
*(US = 'box-end' wrench)

This I get! Also, a socket with an external hex shape at the back end. Then you don't mar the outside of the socket with a Vise-Grip.
Posted By: Hugh Jörgen Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/22/20 11:57 pm
I guess a pass-through ratchet would work as well.
pass thru
Posted By: Mark Z Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/23/20 12:04 am
Originally Posted by Hugh Jörgen
I guess a pass-through ratchet would work as well.
pass thru

Hmm, that's a new one on me!

Leafing back through, I just noticed Dmadigan's reply, where he suggested pulling in the clutch lever to load the screw so it doesn't turn as you tighten the lock nut - kind of makes all the "special tool" talk superfluous!
Posted By: Stuart Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/23/20 5:58 pm
Hi Mark,
Originally Posted by Mark Z
I don't get how this sort of wrench helps - it doesn't look like you can put a screwdriver through the socket.
That's exactly how it works - not visible in the solitary Amazon image is the outside of the curve is a hole - wrench on the locknut hex., screwdriver through the hole in the wrench curve to the adjuster screw, hold screw with screwdriver, tighten (or loosen) locknut with wrench. thumbsup

From the linked Amazon webpage:-
Quote
Angle and through-hole design helps accommodate threaded rods or a bar for extra leverage,
Just an aside but, when I started touring abroad in the early 1980's, these hollow hex. wrenches were then common particularly in French workshops.

Hth.

Regards,
Posted By: DavidP Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/24/20 7:59 am
I always have trouble feeling the point at which the screw makes contact with the push rod. What I do is reach across to feel the lever in the gearbox case to see when it won't move. Back the screw off until I can feel movement at the lever. Then I put the screwdriver in through a socket and hold while I finger tighten the lock nut. Back off the screw a bit and tighten the nut. Check for free play at the lever in the gearbox cover.
Great tip about tightening the nut with the clutch deployed, thanks Dave!
Posted By: Tigernuts Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/24/20 11:46 am
Turning the screwdriver with thumb & fingertip is ideal when that's possible, but often the threads are much too stiff to allow this. It ought to be easy enough to just watch the pressure plate for signs of lifting, though this may be difficult to see with the chaincase on. It's a job better done with the chaincase off, if that's the case. Once the pushrod is set up properly it shouldn't need thinking about for many thousands of miles, so worth putting a bit of effort into getting it right.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/24/20 1:59 pm
Don't you guys have feeling your fingers? ,LOL......Geez,you all sound like government workers. grin
Posted By: TR7RVMan Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/24/20 9:44 pm
Hi All, The rod adjustment changes rapidly as plates wear or bed in if new.

I’ve observed a large factor in premature clutch wear is lack of rod clearance. I recommend checking at every oil change. That’s shout every 1500 miles. Now that we have the hang of it, takes 3 minutes in real life.

The #1 problem during adjustment is lack of cable free play!!! This cannot be overstated. With the screw ran in tight, reach up & verify the lever still has plenty of play.

The lack play with screw ran in is why owners get the clicking.

Also if cable is gummy or stiff, not sliding freely it’s hard to accurately feel the free play.

At the same time, zero rod clearance causes clutch wear, it can cause rod to spin against pressure pad in cam, causing great heat. This ruins the rod bushing in main shaft as well as rod + pressure pad & tip of adjuster screws. We’ve seen this happen on this group a few times already.

So this is not set & forget. It’s routine maintenance.
Don
Posted By: Tigernuts Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/25/20 1:03 pm
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Don't you guys have feeling your fingers? ,LOL......Geez,you all sound like government workers. grin

Like I said, with some pressure plates (those fancy looking alloy ones are often like this), the threads are too tight to give any 'feel' for when the screw contacts the rod. Only way to do it in that case is by sight.

Don is right of course - new friction plates can wear down fairly quickly. But once initial bedding-in is out of the way, and if you can find neutral whenever you want and don;t make a habit of keeping the bike in gear with the clutch pulled in, there should be very little wear, certainly between oil changes.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: Clutch cable travel - 12/25/20 3:05 pm
Originally Posted by Tigernuts
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Don't you guys have feeling your fingers? ,LOL......Geez,you all sound like government workers. grin

Like I said, with some pressure plates (those fancy looking alloy ones are often like this), the threads are too tight to give any 'feel' for when the screw contacts the rod. Only way to do it in that case is by sight.

Don is right of course - new friction plates can wear down fairly quickly. But once initial bedding-in is out of the way, and if you can find neutral whenever you want and don;t make a habit of keeping the bike in gear with the clutch pulled in, there should be very little wear, certainly between oil changes.
Since you work on bikes as a hobbyst, your eye sight should be able to detect the slightest lift...Or a slim screwdriver placed in the inspection hole while you adjust the screw...You can feel the lift...
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