Britbike forum
Posted By: Nick H Boyer hater - 07/08/21 5:00 pm
Some years ago when I first got interested in bikes again I struggled for a loooong time with a no start custom Triumph T120.
I was getting spark from the Boyer MKIII so I thought it was fine. I did suspect it though so I bought a new MKIV and still had trouble.
Eventually I sent them both to John Healy who confirmed the MKIII was not advancing correctly but the new MKIV was fine.
In the interim I had switched to points and stayed with them on the custom. The bike ran great.

Now I'm putting together another custom T120 and thought give the new MKIV a try.
I get sparks when I touch the leads together but not when I kick over the bike.
This would indicate a problem with the timing plate or magnetic rotor I would think. They have never been used and it doesn't look
like a problem with the leads to the little coils. Impedence there is 141 ohms, close enough to what should be 137 ohms I would think.
The rotor magnets can support their weight.
The battery is new and seems good. The 6 ohm Lucas coils are old but seem good also.

Any ideas before I shelf this again for points and start bad mouthing Boyer?
Posted By: triton thrasher Re: Boyer hater - 07/08/21 5:34 pm
Two 6 ohm coils in series?

That sounds bad.

Do you mean 6 volt coils?
Posted By: John Healy Re: Boyer hater - 07/08/21 6:53 pm
Nick: the offer to test the unit for free has not changed.

The ohm reading from your volt/ohmmeter will vary with the condition of its battery. 141 ohms would be within the range you would expect to see.

At which end of the two connections are you scratching. The ones at the box or the ones that attach the wire to the plate with the two small coils??????

While it's probably not the battery, you must remember that "New" does not mean good. You need a Good battery for any electronic ignition to work properly!!!!!!!
Posted By: Nick H Re: Boyer hater - 07/08/21 9:07 pm
Sorry, 6 volt coils.

John, thanks again for the offer to test. It may come to that.
Actually, I scratched the wires together successfully at both ends.
Posted By: DavidP Re: Boyer hater - 07/09/21 4:34 am
I forget whether it was Boyer or Pazon, or both, but some kits were supplied with a bolt which is a bit too long to properly fix the rotor into the taper on the cam shaft. You might try using a small lock washer under the head of this bolt.
You also need to be sure that the rotor magnets are not contacting the poles of the stator plate.
Posted By: Nick H Re: Boyer hater - 07/09/21 6:05 pm
Be a shame to go to points after my nifty toolbox installation.
That's the ignition switch on top.
but maybe not the best idea anyway for cooling.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com][Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
My points plate
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Allan G Re: Boyer hater - 07/09/21 8:04 pm
It’s also not a good idea to run alternator and ignition wires close/alongside or across each other.
Posted By: John Healy Re: Boyer hater - 07/09/21 8:34 pm
"but maybe not the best idea anyway for cooling." Unfortunately Nick, it is not if, but when!

Diodes in both the Boyer box and the regulator/regulator ability to work is a function of temperature.

When they are working they generate heat. If the heat is not removed they can/will fail.

When they fail, voltage from the regulator can spike putting further stress on the diodes in the Boyer box. This leads to a total failure of the system.

Add to this the higher ambient air temperatures we have been experiencing makes this worse.
Posted By: DavidP Re: Boyer hater - 07/10/21 4:03 am
Originally Posted by Allan G
It’s also not a good idea to run alternator and ignition wires close/alongside or across each other.
Even more important on triples, which have the alternator on the same side of the engine as the points.

John, maybe Boyer, et al could learn from Lucas, who mounted the Rita on a bracket which could be located in good air flow? Tough to find a good mounting place when all they give you is industrial strength Velcro and the amplifier box is plastic.
Posted By: triton thrasher Re: Boyer hater - 07/10/21 9:11 am
Boyer outsold RITA because it was cheaper. Its being a little plastic box rather than a metal case was probably one reason it was cheaper.
Posted By: Nick H Re: Boyer hater - 07/14/21 5:28 pm
Well, I don't get why I don't get spark when I kick over the bike but do get spark when I scratch the leads together.

I tried putting a meter on the timing plate while installed to see if the 141 ohms reading changes while kicking but did not see anything conclusive
and I suppose if this was a valid test we would have heard of it.

I'm just going to have to install points.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Boyer hater - 07/14/21 7:54 pm
Sorry if you have mentioned this. Have you checked the magnetism of each of the magnets on the rotor? A weak magnet won’t work. It should be able to support its own weight or the weight of a small spanner.
Posted By: RF Whatley Re: Boyer hater - 07/15/21 1:24 pm
Originally Posted by Nick H
Well, I don't get why I don't get spark when I kick over the bike but do get spark when I scratch the leads together.
IME, the owner keeps testing the Boyer, but it's not the Boyer's fault at all.

The difference is this: A points system (from the age of electron tubes) will work fine with voltages as low as 9V. (That's voltage arriving at the coil, not at the battery). But when a EI (electronic ignition) is installed, the ignition system immediately takes the bike from the age of telegraph to the age of cell phone technology. However, the installers are sometimes not able to make that same mental leap. Therein lies the root problem.

When you install an EI, the quality of the connections, available voltage, wiring, "grounding", et al MUST also be upgraded to the level of what you find inside your COMPUTER. The transistorized electronics demand something more.

Think of it this way... If you took your cell phone through a "time portal" back to 1955, would you expect your cell phone to work ? Of course not !! But by installing the EI, you have instantly transported your bike from ~1970 to the age of micro-electronics. And transistorized ignitions require (i.e. must have, won't work without) slightly more than stuffing the black box into a safe corner.

To be fair, Boyer does a very BAD job of explaining this in their install sheet. The info is there, but they don't come right out and say "do this". To that end... this article may help.... http://gabma.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/boyer_install.pdf

Your photos SEEM to display a conversion to Negative electrical "ground". This can be done, but my article is written from the point of view of Positive ground, and so not all suggestions can be followed verbatim.

All the best.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Boyer hater - 07/15/21 5:30 pm
This reminds me of a post on Farcebook recently. The owner with a triumph had wired his boyer mk3? Into the existing system but after several miles the box died and that was all.

The same poster didn’t get the answer he wanted and on each occasion I had screen shot his wiring images and circled the problem or questionable wires.

There was a red going back to the battery between the two linked coils. The red from the box was connecting to a brown? Wire going to the coil, the previous end of that brown wire was going to another red wire which I could only Assume went to the frame. Again I repeatedly asked what these wires were and where they went to and that was ignored.

The poster then bought a mk4 and wired it in the same way. Despite me advising that he needs to follow the wiring diagram to the letter and any wires not showing on that diagram but on his system should be removed. Ie if it wasn’t on the diagram, it shouldn’t be on there.

3-4 posts about this and I eventually gave up. The problem most of the time is not the box, but the person trying to install it. It’s ok not to be an electrical genius, but when people are investing their time into trying to help, have the good grace to answer the questions they are asking you. It doesn’t help when you get dumb answers like “yeah it looks fine mate”. When it obviously isn’t and the owners got a serious issue.
Posted By: Nick H Re: Boyer hater - 07/15/21 11:59 pm
Well Allen, I haven't ignored any of the helpful posters here. (Yes, as stated earlier the rotor magnets support their weight)

The battery measures 12.3 volts at the coil which I would hope would be enough for a MKIV.

It will actually go higher after a charge with the same no spark result. I suppose I could try "jumping" it with my car.

I'm rather fastidious with my wiring connections and use both solder and crimp.

Thanks
Posted By: quinten Re: Boyer hater - 07/16/21 2:06 am
Quote
The battery measures 12.3 volts at the coil which I would hope would be enough for a MKIV.

voltage does not indicate voltage under load .
the box needs to see a minimum voltage under load
to latch the boyer boxes circuitry .

how are you measuring voltage at the coils ?
if the boyer is wired correctly you can not read voltage at the coils .
( coils are normally off and only flashed for a few milliseconds at a time , which initiates each firing sequence )

you need to bypass the transistor box and jump power to the first coil , is the series string , to
read voltage at the coils . ... is this what you are doing ?

If you are reading voltage at the coils with the ignition on with the transistor box wired .
... the wiring is incorrect .

the transistor Box acts as a switch ... and it is wired upstream of the coils .

Points act like switches too ... but they are wired Downstream of the coils .
Posted By: DavidP Re: Boyer hater - 07/16/21 4:28 am
Originally Posted by Nick H
Well, I don't get why I don't get spark when I kick over the bike but do get spark when I scratch the leads together.

I tried putting a meter on the timing plate while installed to see if the 141 ohms reading changes while kicking but did not see anything conclusive
and I suppose if this was a valid test we would have heard of it.
I don't see why the impedance of the coils would change. But, if you use an analog voltmeter on it's lowest setting you should see a small needle deflection when cranking. Then you will understand how small the trigger signal is, and the need for perfect connections.
One of my main concerns with the Boyer is those stupid bullet connectors right at the pickup, in a connection which must be perfect to work. You can get spark by striking the two wires on one side together, but still not have a good enough circuit with the bullets plugged in. Unless they're gold, those female bullets will oxidize just sitting on the shelf. Deoxit is your friend!
Posted By: Allan G Re: Boyer hater - 07/16/21 8:38 am
Originally Posted by Nick H
Well Allen, I haven't ignored any of the helpful posters here. (Yes, as stated earlier the rotor magnets support their weight)

I didn’t mean to say you had, but a lot of installers are their own worst enemy, whether they intend to be or not.
Posted By: Stuart Re: Boyer hater - 07/16/21 8:46 am
Hi Nick,
Originally Posted by Nick H
just going to have to install points.
Hmmm ... if the headlamp didn't work, you'd replace it with acetylene lighting?

Originally Posted by Nick H
don't get why I don't get spark when I kick over the bike but do get spark when I scratch the leads together.
Assuming "scratch the leads together" means you are touching together the terminal ends of the Black/White and Black/White wires out the B-B Transistor Box, the Box is powered from the battery, charges the coil(s) and cuts the LT supply to the coil(s) which generates HT sparks.

Touching those terminal ends together roughly mimics what the B-B Stator and Rotor do with more sophistication. So, if you "do get spark when I scratch the leads together" but "don't get spark when I kick over the bike":-

. the Rotor isn't;

. the Stator isn't generating any signals to the Box;

. the wires between Stator and Box aren't conducting the Stator signals to the Box.

Mk.1 eyeball will tell you whether the Rotor is, Ohm-meter or Ohms function of a multi-meter will tell you whether the wires are conducting. Stator usually has to be substituted to tell if it's faulty.

Electrical fault-finding simply requires logical step-by-step testing. E.g. when a headlamp bulb doesn't work, one of the first tests I try is another headlamp bulb ...

Hth.

Regards,
Posted By: RF Whatley Re: Boyer hater - 07/16/21 1:24 pm
Originally Posted by Nick H
Well Allen, I haven't ignored any of the helpful posters here. (Yes, as stated earlier the rotor magnets support their weight)

The battery measures 12.3 volts at the coil which I would hope would be enough for a MKIV.

1. Good. And while you're not ignoring input, tell us did you measure the battery voltage with a Load Tester or a personal VOM ??

2. My experience is that chopper builders like to use an ultra-small battery, something around 6AH. Since the charging system has no way to reduce the charge when the battery reaches full-charge, the battery continues to the point of severe over-charge. This is due to the low mass of the physical battery. A small battery can't physically absorb the heat of a continued charge, like the mass of a larger (say) 8 or 9AH battery which has twice the mass. Can you fully describe your battery for us ?

So chopper batteries are always suspect, and as previously stated... having a known good battery is Necessary Item #1.
Posted By: Nick H Re: Boyer hater - 07/16/21 8:47 pm
Remember, my wiring is negative ground so I believe I can measure volts at the coil.
In any event it can be done the way shown in a Vintage Bike article.

(interesting to compare the negative/positive wiring diagrams. I can't say I fully understand it
but one can't just flip the battery around to go from one to the other)

My battery is a 4 AH. Not great but i wouldn't think my single phase charging system would damage it.

I don't own an actual battery load tester so the best I can do is put a load on it such as a headlight and note the effect on the battery..
The volts drop a bit and stay there.

I would think the new battery is "good enough". Some other reason I'm getting no spark.
Posted By: Nick H Re: Boyer hater - 07/16/21 9:41 pm
Ok, now it's sparking.
I was resting the plugs on the finned exhaust clamps because they seemed to hold them snugly
but now I'm resting on the head and I guess getting a better connection.

Thanks.
Posted By: triton thrasher Re: Boyer hater - 07/16/21 10:06 pm
Originally Posted by Nick H
Ok, now it's sparking.
I was resting the plugs on the finned exhaust clamps because they seemed to hold them snugly
but now I'm resting on the head and I guess getting a better connection.

Thanks.


I can’t see that making a difference.
Posted By: quinten Re: Boyer hater - 07/17/21 5:57 am
Quote
interesting to compare the negative/positive wiring diagrams. I can't say I fully understand it
but one can't just flip the battery around to go from one to the other)

no you cant flip the battery because the boyer box contains polartized components .

and because of these polarize components ,
the boyer wiring is the same for neg and pos ....
the only difference is the location of the on/off switch

ignition switch on negitive side ... is positive ground
ignition switch on positive.side ... is negitive ground

(the fuse may move too , but may not )
Posted By: quinten Re: Boyer hater - 07/17/21 6:56 am
Quote
Remember, my wiring is negative ground so I believe I can measure volts at the coil.
In any event it can be done the way shown in a Vintage Bike article.

you shouldn't be able to read voltage at the coils
wirh negitive ground ( if the boyer is correctly wired and ready to fire )
the test requires a simple wiring change .

you can voltage-drop load-test using coils as the load
if black wire between B-box and coil is pulled from box and grounded
the coils are the load ... and this will also test the conductivity of the ignition wiring .
... all its various crimps and connections
Posted By: L.A.B. Re: Boyer hater - 07/17/21 9:07 am
Originally Posted by quinten
Quote
Remember, my wiring is negative ground so I believe I can measure volts at the coil.
In any event it can be done the way shown in a Vintage Bike article.

you shouldn't be able to read voltage at the coils
wirh negitive ground ( if the boyer is correctly wired and ready to fire )
the test requires a simple wiring change .

If, "correctly wired" then the ignition switch connects to coil(+).
http://www.boyerbransden.com/pdf/KIT00052.pdf
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
Posted By: Stuart Re: Boyer hater - 07/17/21 10:56 am
Hi Nick,
Originally Posted by Nick H
my wiring is negative ground so I believe I can measure volts at the coil.
"ground" doesn't have anything to with "measur[ing] volts".

Volts are simply the units of difference between two points in an electrical circuit - e.g. between a battery's negative and positive terminals.

By-and-large, you cannot measure Volts in any circuit containing a B-B e.i. or one of the clones, because they all incorporate the 'feature' pioneered by Bransden - having powered-up the e.i. and coil(s) by turning on the ignition switch, if the Box doesn't 'detect engine movement' (signals from the Stator being generated by the Rotor turning), the Box powers-down.

If it happens, this power-down is a varying number of seconds after power-up. If it happens, the ignition circuit is not complete; any circuit nor complete, any "measur[ing] volts" is pointless, tells you the proverbial ten per cent of bugger all.

Originally Posted by Nick H
In any event it can be done the way shown in a Vintage Bike article.
You have not understood all the VB article ...

Originally Posted by Nick H
(interesting to compare the negative/positive wiring diagrams. I can't say I fully understand it but one can't just flip the battery around to go from one to the other)
By-and-large, a battery is the power in any Direct Current electrical circuit. There is no such thing as a "negative ground" battery or a "positive ground" battery, they all work exactly the same. The current must always pass through an e.i. (any electronics) in the same direction.

Originally Posted by Nick H
My battery is a 4 AH. Not great but i wouldn't think my single phase charging system would damage it.
Proper DC regulation, high-output 3-phase alternator doesn't damage a 7 Ah burglar alarm battery ...

Originally Posted by Nick H
Some other reason I'm getting no spark.
Originally Posted by Nick H
Ok, now it's sparking.
thumbsup

Two more things with e.i., particularly B-B and clones:-

. I advise against connecting it to "FRAME EARTH" - "negative ground", connect Box White wire directly to battery -ve, through a low-Amps fuse (start with 5A, depending on the coil(s), you might need 7.5A).

. There should be a specific Black (assuming standard Lucas wire colours) wire between battery -ve and an engine component - head bolt(?). You should not rely on the engine's connection to the frame nor random wire connections to frame components.

Hth.

Regards,
Posted By: BSA_WM20 Re: Boyer hater - 07/17/21 1:10 pm
Quote
Proper DC regulation, high-output 3-phase alternator doesn't damage a 7 Ah burglar alarm battery ...
And when do most BSA's end up with proper DC regulation ?
Most require a load from the battery to smooth out the pulsed voltage
Also a lot of gel cells have a maximum rate of discharge & recharge otherwise the electrolyte breaks down or gasses.
And the cheaper the battery the lower the surface area of the plates so the fewer amps needed to cause damage.
Posted By: Mark Z Re: Boyer hater - 07/17/21 4:10 pm
Originally Posted by Stuart
There should be a specific Black (assuming standard Lucas wire colours) wire between battery -ve and an engine component - head bolt. You should not rely on the engine's connection to the frame nor random wire connections to frame components.
Stuart, where specifically do you attach a wire to the (BSA) engine? Obviously not head BOLT, since those are inside the rocker chamber, perhaps head STUD, although a wire there would require a second nut on the stud, it would be ugly, and it would be subject to heat. On an OIF model, you could use one of the head steady bolts in the rocker cover, but a dry frame model does not have those. I use the front end of the head steady, but my head steady is chromed; if the head steady is painted, it would require removing the paint at the mount points. Perhaps you meant one of the rocker cover studs or bolts? Anyway, not a big deal, but I'm curious because the subject has come up many times.
Posted By: Stuart Re: Boyer hater - 07/17/21 5:33 pm
Hi Mark,
Originally Posted by Mark Z
Originally Posted by Stuart
There should be a specific Black (assuming standard Lucas wire colours) wire between battery -ve and an engine component - head bolt. You should not rely on the engine's connection to the frame nor random wire connections to frame components.
where specifically do you attach a wire to the (BSA) engine? Obviously not head BOLT, since ...
Firstly, apologies, the end of the sentence was not punctuated correctly. I have corrected it in my original post, it now reads, "There should be a specific Black ... wire between battery -ve and an engine component - head bolt(?)"; i.e. head bolt is a suggestion for Nick H The O.P., who is working with a Triumph engine, with exposed head bolts.

On a BSA (or any engine without exposed head bolts), the important parts of the sentences are, "There should be a specific ... wire between battery ... and an engine component ... You should not rely on the engine's connection to the frame nor random wire connections to frame components."

Nevertheless, as this is more generalised advice than specifically for Nick H The O.P.:-

. Standard Britbike harness, the wire might already be present.

. The intention of the existing/advised wire is the engine has good electrical contact with whichever is the battery 'ground' terminal. As you know, electrical components screwed on to the engine tend to 'ground' through their mounting on the engine, an electrical circuit isn't complete without good contact with both battery terminals; regrettably, the electrical path from engine to battery is frequently neglected.

Hth.

Regards,
Posted By: quinten Re: Boyer hater - 07/17/21 5:37 pm
Quote
where specifically do you attach a wire to the (BSA) engine? 

red wire , center rear , rocker cover stud
http://www.rcycle.com/Lightning_135__1024x768_.JPG
for a more discreet look
it could be done as a bare copper wire , ( its a ground wire and does not need insulation )
Posted By: Stuart Re: Boyer hater - 07/17/21 5:43 pm
Hi Trevor,
Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
Originally Posted by Stuart
Proper DC regulation, high-output 3-phase alternator doesn't damage a 7 Ah burglar alarm battery ...
And when do most BSA's end up with proper DC regulation ?
The sentence you've quoted was my agreement with part of one of Nick H The O.P.'s posts:-
Originally Posted by Nick H
My battery is a 4 AH. Not great but i wouldn't think my single phase charging system would damage it.
As for your rhetorical question, educated guess says you're dissatisfied with the regulation by the standard Zeners fitted to BSA's with 12V electrics? If so, fit a modern reg./rec.?

Hth.

Regards,
Posted By: Nick H Re: Boyer hater - 07/17/21 7:57 pm
Well this is all very educational which is why I'm here after all. I don't mind being wrong and don't care to defend what I do.

However

Quinten and Stuart are telling me I can't measure voltage at the coil in my negative "ground" (I've learned to always put it in quotes) installation
or I've done something wrong. . This is the VB article I was using.

http://vintagebikemagazine.com/technical-articles/boyer-trouble-shooting/

(Unfortunately the author switched the battery labelling on two diagrams which confused me for a bit)

I made a jumper from the black wire coil to "ground" and measured at the red wire coil. It measured battery voltage less any loss from the switch, etc.

Even without the jumper I still measure battery voltage at the coil.

You both have a lot more electrical knowledge than I do
So what am I doing wrong?
Posted By: quinten Re: Boyer hater - 07/17/21 11:52 pm
not sure whats hooked up and not hooked up
when you get your voltage readings and where youre putting the meter probes .

With the jumper in place for neg. ground ... jumper between black wire and coil ... jumper to gound
... ignition on ...the voltage reading should be zero at the jumper .
you can trace the voltage drop around the circuit as it meets resistance .
the voltage before the first coil may be lower than voltage across battery terminals ... indicating wire and switch loss .
and the voltage will be half remaining voltage between the coils
and zero voltage after the second coil .

and battery circuit voltage will be somewhat lower than resting voltage , indicating the coil load ... but still above 10volts
... 10 volts being the safe low voltage at which the B-box will still latch and time correctly without Jitter .

the battery voltage under coil load is also testing the battery strength .
a bigger drop indicates of a weaker battery ... and or a smaller battery with less reserve .
..........
dont know if your negitive wiring is correct ?
look at fig 3 and fig 4 below
the wiring for the boyer is the same for pos. and neg . ground ... only the switch location moves ( the fuse moves to ,
if you follow the convention of fusing the switch slde )
[Linked Image from triumphbonneville120.co.uk]
https://triumphbonneville120.co.uk/resources/Boyer%2000052%20Electronic%20Ignition%203.jpg.opt888x1256o0%2C0s888x1256.jpg
Posted By: Mark Z Re: Boyer hater - 07/18/21 4:39 am
Originally Posted by Stuart
Hi Mark,
Originally Posted by Mark Z
Originally Posted by Stuart
There should be a specific Black (assuming standard Lucas wire colours) wire between battery -ve and an engine component - head bolt. You should not rely on the engine's connection to the frame nor random wire connections to frame components.
where specifically do you attach a wire to the (BSA) engine? Obviously not head BOLT, since ...
Firstly, apologies, the end of the sentence was not punctuated correctly. I have corrected it in my original post, it now reads, "There should be a specific Black ... wire between battery -ve and an engine component - head bolt(?)"; i.e. head bolt is a suggestion for Nick H The O.P., who is working with a Triumph engine, with exposed head bolts.

On a BSA (or any engine without exposed head bolts), the important parts of the sentences are, "There should be a specific ... wire between battery ... and an engine component ... You should not rely on the engine's connection to the frame nor random wire connections to frame components."

Nevertheless, as this is more generalised advice than specifically for Nick H The O.P.:-

. Standard Britbike harness, the wire might already be present.

. The intention of the existing/advised wire is the engine has good electrical contact with whichever is the battery 'ground' terminal. As you know, electrical components screwed on to the engine tend to 'ground' through their mounting on the engine, an electrical circuit isn't complete without good contact with both battery terminals; regrettably, the electrical path from engine to battery is frequently neglected.

Hth.

Regards,
That's ok Stuart, I understand the principle; I just know you have BSAs and I was looking for a suggested wire location. Trevor replied with "rear center rocker cover stud", which is a good subtle location. The front end of the head steady works for me since my head steady is chromed, and my "ground wire" from the headlamp shell is also attached there.
Posted By: Stuart Re: Boyer hater - 07/18/21 7:16 pm
Hi Nick,
Originally Posted by Nick H
Quinten and Stuart are telling me I can't measure voltage at the coil in my negative "ground" (I've learned to always put it in quotes) installation
or I've done something wrong.
Uh-uh; to clarify:-
Originally Posted by Stuart
you cannot measure Volts in any circuit containing a B-B e.i. or one of the clones, because ...
Originally Posted by Nick H
I made a jumper from the black wire coil to "ground"
. on your bike, "negative ground" means metal bits of the bike are connected to battery -ve;

. "black wire coil" means the (B-B) Transistor Box Black wire is connected to coil -ve;

. "I made a jumper from the black wire coil to "ground"" means you connected battery -ve to coil -ve; i.e. you bypassed the Transistor Box, it was not in the circuit that you were measuring Volts, your Volts readings were (should've been) accurate.

Originally Posted by Nick H
measured at the red wire coil. It measured battery voltage less any loss from the switch, etc.
However, afaict this is incorrect ...

. First you measure between battery -ve and battery +ve, to get a reference = none of the bike's electrical components involved;

. then you can measure between:-

.. coil -ve ("black wire coil") and battery +ve;

.. battery -ve and coil +ve ("red wire coil");

.. note the opposition of the two terminals in each phrase, because the coil/s is/are the resistance in the ignition circuit;

.. if there isn't any additional resistance in any other component in the ignition circuit (e.g. across fuse, ignition switch, kill switch, etc), the Volts readings above between each coil terminal and battery terminal should be the same as the first reading just between the battery terminals;

. so there should not be "any loss from the switch, etc."; if there is, the component/s where this "loss" occurs is/are faulty.

Originally Posted by Nick H
Even without the jumper I still measure battery voltage at the coil.
This measurement only thumbsup while the B-B Transistor Box is conducting; when it switches off, any Volts readings anywhere in the ignition circuit are thumbsdown same as they would be if the ignition or kill switches were off, any fuse was out or blown, etc.

Originally Posted by quinten
you shouldn't be able to read voltage at the coils wirh negitive ground
confused 'Fraid I have no idea what this means ...

As I posted earlier, and you can see in the B-B wiring diagrams, any e.i. is connected exactly the same, totally and utterly irrelevant of "ground". In the case of B-B or Pazon/Wassell clones, the Box White wire is connected to battery -ve, the box Red wire is connected to battery +ve, the Box Black wire is connected to coil -ve (only one coil -ve in the case of multiple coils), (one) coil +ve is connected to battery +ve. That's the ignition circuit. The position of any switches within the circuit might be different but they are (should be) simply connections within the circuit.

Because any e.i. is connected exactly the same, irrelevant of "ground", if the e.i. Box is powered down, the ignition circuit is not complete, any Volts 'readings' aren't meaningful. Bugger-all to do with "ground", "negative" or 'positive'.

Hth.

Regards,
Posted By: reverb Re: Boyer hater - 07/19/21 12:08 am
Hi Quinten; why is safe to use a bare ground wire? Is that is just grounded? I am confused by the idea that if a battery has 2 poles the current would go from one passing for the wiring and finishing on the other pole? Or is not that way?
Decades ago I saw that in houses but as I am not interested in Electricity theory etc I forgot about it.

Thanks
Posted By: Allan G Re: Boyer hater - 07/19/21 8:33 am
Having a bare ground wire is as safe as having bare sections of frame or engine.
Posted By: quinten Re: Boyer hater - 07/19/21 8:33 am
Originally Posted by reverb
Hi Quinten; why is safe to use a bare ground wire? Is that is just grounded? I am confused by the idea that if a battery has 2 poles the current would go from one passing for the wiring and finishing on the other pole? Or is not that way?
Decades ago I saw that in houses but as I am not interested in Electricity theory etc I forgot about it.
Thanks

a low voltage DC earth side doesn't need insulation to function correctly .
the insulation on the gound side only add a layer of protection against accidents .
you " could " wire the ground side harness in all bare copper wire .
(theres probably a trailer Queen Chopper somewhere build this way )

many parts of a motorcycle ground-side are not insulated .
some are conductive paths , some are just bonded to ground to convey a known polarity .
the engine is part of the ground path , its not -insulated .
the handlebars are un insulated and even if rubber mounted
are likely conductive through the clutch cable .
the frame is bonded to ground . paint insulates the frame
but any of the nuts and bolts attached to the frame may be un-insulated earth points .

adding a few inches of bare copper bond between engine and earth harness
adds little to the mass of already non -insulated engine .

do live wires fall off and contact engines , handlebars or aluminum fenders ?
yes , I suppose they do sometimes , but most of the time the lack of insulation isn't an issue .

nowdays , and for some time ,
Conductive metal bits are all bonded to the ground side with copper bond straps
even if the bits are not intended to be the pimary conductive ground path .
and this includes all bare metal conductive bits .

back when cars had chrome bumpers you could jump a dead battery in one car
by kissing 2 car bumpers together to form a negative connection , Through both frames
and then add only one jumper wire from battery+ to battery +.
Posted By: Hillbilly bike Re: Boyer hater - 07/19/21 11:01 am
Originally Posted by quinten
back when cars had chrome bumpers you could jump a dead battery in one car
by kissing 2 car bumpers together to form a negative connection , Through both frames
and then add only one jumper wire from battery+ to battery +.
except if it were the fairly common 6 volt positive ground vehicles... but then you could jump the negative car to the positive car ,use the cables for a series connection and a 12 volt boost for starting..
Posted By: Nick H Re: Boyer hater - 07/19/21 12:40 pm
Here is my insulated jumper from my small battery to the engine mount on my dreaded Choppa.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
So, not sure why my Boyer wasn't sparking initially whether the plugs weren't well "grounded" or the Boyer hadn't turned on yet
but it's working now so I don't hate it but there is something about a points ignition transparency of operation that is attractive.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Boyer hater - 07/19/21 2:17 pm
you might want to look at what is chafing your chain, those polished plates don't look too promising eek

and whilst your down there, fit a cover plate between the chain and the battery. It might be in a box, but theres a lot of grease and sh** that will by flying about down there.
Posted By: Stuart Re: Boyer hater - 07/19/21 3:45 pm
Hi,
Originally Posted by Nick H
insulated jumper from my small battery to the engine mount
How is the B-B Transistor Box supplied?

Originally Posted by Nick H
not sure why my Boyer wasn't sparking initially whether the plugs weren't well "grounded" or the Boyer hadn't turned on yet
Almost certainly "the plugs weren't well "grounded"". Always a problem when checking any ignition, even points - plug out of the engine and laid on it, if it doesn't spark, is it just its electrical connection or another problem? confused Long-term problem like you've just experienced, always worth eliminating this basic possibility by wrapping bare wire around the plug and connecting it directly to the battery 'ground' terminal.

Turning on the ignition switch, the Box should also be on, the Box'll only turn off if you spend too long chatting, fiddling with things you should've fiddled with before you turned on the ignition switch, etc. wink Nevertheless, no question the Box powering-down 'feature' is a rrpita when trouble-shooting, far too much 'loss' for the illusory 'gain' of allegedly 'saving' the battery. facepalm

Originally Posted by Nick H
there is something about a points ignition transparency of operation that is attractive.
Nothing obscure about an e.i., at least not any for these old heaps. Like troubleshooting anything, you just need to know how it should work then figure out which bit isn't. smile

Originally Posted by reverb
safe to use a bare ground wire?
On a vehicle, it's only safe to use a bare ground wire if you can guarantee it will never touch something that is 'not ground'. Because when it does, that's a short. thumbsdown

Also uninsulated ground wire corrodes. thumbsdown

So why wouldn't you just use an insulated ground wire and give yourself one less thing to worry about? wink

Hth.

Regards,
Posted By: DavidP Re: Boyer hater - 07/20/21 5:53 am
Originally Posted by reverb
Hi Quinten; why is safe to use a bare ground wire? Is that is just grounded? I am confused by the idea that if a battery has 2 poles the current would go from one passing for the wiring and finishing on the other pole? Or is not that way?
Decades ago I saw that in houses but as I am not interested in Electricity theory etc I forgot about it.

Thanks
The ground wire in house wiring is a safety feature. Under normal conditions it carries no current, unlike the "ground" cable on automotive circuits which is in fact a return to the battery, not a ground.
Posted By: triton thrasher Re: Boyer hater - 07/20/21 11:55 am
Where would I even find an uninsulated wire?

I once had trouble finding a fault on a Honda 250 G5. Everything worked except the electric starter, which just clicked.

Turned out the large battery return cable had corroded into powder inside its insulation. The ends looked fine!
Posted By: Allan G Re: Boyer hater - 07/20/21 4:27 pm
Originally Posted by triton thrasher
Where would I even find an uninsulated wire?

I once had trouble finding a fault on a Honda 250 G5. Everything worked except the electric starter, which just clicked.

Turned out the large battery return cable had corroded into powder inside its insulation. The ends looked fine!


This is a problem. Most wires (I’m also including oxygen free speaker cable here and speaking of wires in general and not specific to a task) will let air and moisture past the insulation. Which then can’t escape, then oxidation and corrosion sets in.
Posted By: reverb Re: Boyer hater - 07/20/21 5:10 pm
Hi Stuart; I do not want to use a bare wire just trying to understand the concept behind.

Hi DavidP; that is where my confusion resides. The returning; or as you say on the other hand: "the ground"
Posted By: Stuart Re: Boyer hater - 07/20/21 7:51 pm
Hi TT,
Originally Posted by triton thrasher
Where would I even find an uninsulated wire?
There's earthing braid - thin strands to be flexible, lots of 'em to be able to carry a large current, strands braided to avoid having to cover 'em in something to keep 'em together.

However, no covering, the stuff corrodes. thumbsdown Original Lucas rear lamps used on US versions '66-'70 and then everything '71/'72, the 'frame' inside to mount lens and bulb holder was in two pieces, Lucas wrapped an itsy-bitsy teen-weeny bit of braid between the two bits of the frame. 'Course, fifty-plus years on, its corroded to nothing, leaving people wondering how the bulb's supposed to 'earth'/'ground'.

Originally Posted by triton thrasher
once had trouble finding a fault on a Honda 250 G5. Everything worked except the electric starter, which just clicked.
Turned out the large battery return cable had corroded into powder inside its insulation. The ends looked fine!
I had something similar on a Kwak trailie in the 1980's - the main Red wire to battery +ve wasn't conducting so I cut it back to fit a new terminal ... stripped the insulation but bits of conductor came with it, stripped another bit of insulation, more bits of conductor ... turned out all the strands had corroded randomly into short lengths about an inch long within the insulation ... facepalm But weirdly, just that wire, all the others on the bike were fine ... confused

Regards,
Posted By: Nick H Re: Boyer hater - 07/22/21 8:59 pm
Getting this thread back on track, I'm getting a spark with the Boyer and 93% sure I have it wired correctly but the bike is not starting.

Compression not great but should be enough. Carbs are chromed Monoblocs that I've not tried before. I tried slight advance and retard but no luck.
Plugs are getting wet with gas.

This is starting to feel like a couple years ago when I gave up and went to points on my other Triumph.

So it's points again on this one. Zip tie a 12V dual Emgo coil to the frame and break out points and condensers.

First kick. Bang she's running.
(See thread title)

S'pose I'll be sending this MKIV to be tested again.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Boyer hater - 07/22/21 9:07 pm
Are you using this Emgo coil with the boyer also?
Posted By: Nick H Re: Boyer hater - 07/22/21 11:01 pm
No, two 6 volt coils, Lucas 2 Ohm.

Here's how I wired:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: NickL Re: Boyer hater - 07/23/21 12:41 am
On the face of it, the wiring looks fine.
You could check the boyer stator plate simply with a
ohm meter, or a small battery and a light bulb it should
have continuity. They do sometimes break at the joints
but it's unusual.
If the unit is actually switching and sparking by brushing
the sensor leads together, i doubt it's the box that's faulty.
Make sure the engine is well earthed as unlike the dual
coil the sparks are generated between earth and ht.
With a dual coil the sparks are generated across the coil's
output not with reference to earth.

Just my 2c
Posted By: reverb Re: Boyer hater - 07/23/21 2:25 am
...besides the possible electrical problem; chromed carburetors is a good way to cry a lot with the many hassles incorporated.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Boyer hater - 07/23/21 7:11 am
Originally Posted by Nick H
No, two 6 volt coils, Lucas 2 Ohm.

Here's how I wired:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
The only issue with your wiring diagram isn’t with the boyer but where the reg rec connects to the loom in relation with the switch. You want the red wire to be the other side of the switch (same side as the battery) otherwise a decent charging system will continue to power the ignition after you have turned the switch off.

I’d have tried the twin output coil before ditching the boyer. (I’m also kinda intrigued how the points are not cancelling each other out when used with your twin output coil, probably the degrees of dwell is sufficient on the cam to allow this?)
I’ve had issues with some coils before now where they just go bad after a short period of time. Following that I only have the odd old wassel coil and PVL coils of which I now stick with.
Posted By: Stuart Re: Boyer hater - 07/23/21 8:18 am
Hi Allan, Nick,
Originally Posted by Allan G
only issue with your wiring diagram
Uh-uh. Other issue is, for "negative ground", the fuse is on the wrong 'side' of the battery ... non-electric-start bike, the main or single fuse should always, always, always be connected to the battery "ground" terminal.

Reason is:-

. by definition, any and all random metal parts of the bike are connected to the battery "ground" terminal;

. something metal touching the 'not ground' battery terminal itself and any random metal part of the bike ...

... the fuse in its current position cannot prevent the short; facepalm

... otoh, main or single fuse in the single solitary wire actually connected to the battery "ground" terminal will pop straight away. thumbsup

Originally Posted by Allan G
where the reg rec connects to the loom in relation with the switch. You want the red wire to be the other side of the switch
Ime, you want the Pod (any reg./rec.) DC wires connected directly to the corresponding battery terminals. The alternator's for charging the battery, for why would you connect it anywhere else? confused

If you must try and get away with a solitary fuse, reg./rec. DC wires connected directly to the corresponding battery terminals, a short anywhere else on the bike will at least stop the bike, because both battery and alternator will be isolated. thumbsup

However, short in the reg./rec. itself still won't be protected. thumbsdown I just put a second fuse in one of the wires between battery and reg./rec.

Hth.

Regards,
Posted By: Nick H Re: Boyer hater - 07/23/21 2:39 pm
Thanks for the very helpful comments!

Allan, we went through my reg/rec wiring location once before on my BSA. Thank you again I'll try to get it through my thick skull.

I think dual coils are fairly commonly used with points. One condenser, two? Here's the one that was working on this engine when I bought it (!):
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
It's only 4 inches tall and has no writing on it so I don't know what it is.

I'm thinking now that I may have had a problem with my plug wires with the Lucas coils or the coils themselves. Both quite old.
The spark that I was getting did not look very strong.
I'll stop blaming the Boyer.

Stuart thank you for the education on fusing. I'll make the adjustment for sure.

Originally Posted by reverb
...besides the possible electrical problem; chromed carburetors is a good way to cry a lot with the many hassles incorporated.
I've heard it said that chroming an Amal does it no good but I do know of one person with chromed Concentrics that work fine.
I didn't have these Monoblocs chromed, I got them this way but it is a flashy effect for this bike.
I suppose I should post a photo of the bike.
Posted By: triton thrasher Re: Boyer hater - 07/24/21 8:22 am
Originally Posted by quinten
I'd ignore the advice about moving the fuse to the negative side .
The argument Is a tempest in a teapot .( which side of the egg do you open )
( electrical convention defaults the fuse to the switch side )... where you have it .
And where every new car and motorcycle made has it .

Not quite “every.”

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
Posted By: quinten Re: Boyer hater - 07/24/21 12:21 pm
Originally Posted by triton thrasher
Originally Posted by quinten
I'd ignore the advice about moving the fuse to the negative side .
The argument Is a tempest in a teapot .( which side of the egg do you open )
( electrical convention defaults the fuse to the switch side )... where you have it .
And where every new car and motorcycle made has it .

Not quite “every.”

there is always an exception ... and an exception to the exception .
the outlier is just that .
I think that diagram is from 1966 , used one year only , not exactly a modern vehicle .
why didnt Triumph stick with the arrangement ?
it looks like it should work ? .... but Triumph wasn't satisfied with it

Possibly because
the fuse at the battery isnt the only ground point ... so doesn't break all connections
whats not shown on the diagram is
the old finned rectifier had its own ground .

Originally Posted by john healy
... and suggest that the fuse should have been put on the ground side of the battery. Well, in 1966 they did just that, but they discovered: if the fuse failed while the bike was running the bike would keep running and damage the rectifier. The next year they change the harness with the fuse on the feed side of the battery
Posted By: triton thrasher Re: Boyer hater - 07/24/21 1:22 pm
Originally Posted by quinten
Possibly because
the fuse at the battery isnt the only ground point ... so doesn't break all connections
whats not shown on the diagram is
the old finned rectifier had its own ground .

Originally Posted by john healy
... and suggest that the fuse should have been put on the ground side of the battery. Well, in 1966 they did just that, but they discovered: if the fuse failed while the bike was running the bike would keep running and damage the rectifier. The next year they change the harness with the fuse on the feed side of the battery

I don’t understand that. I probably need Stuart to explain it!

Yes, a bike can keep running on the charging system with the ignition switch on and the battery isolated, such as by a blown fuse. I don’t see what difference it can make whereabout the battery circuit is broken: near the live terminal or near the return terminal.

I must take a look at the later Triumph diagrams.
Posted By: triton thrasher Re: Boyer hater - 07/24/21 1:31 pm
Quinten- Are you saying the red wire from the rectifier went to the battery return terminal in parallel with another red return/frame earth wire, which had a fuse in line?

That would be very silly.
Posted By: Stuart Re: Boyer hater - 07/24/21 1:38 pm
Hi Nick,

Regrettably, as often, Quinten's 'argument' contains a number of basic logical and technical failures ... facepalm

Originally Posted by quinten
the old finned rectifier had its own ground .
Originally Posted by john healy
... and suggest that the fuse should have been put on the ground side of the battery. Well, in 1966 they did just that, but they discovered: if the fuse failed while the bike was running the bike would keep running and damage the rectifier. The next year they change the harness with the fuse on the feed side of the battery
In quoting JH, Quinten fails to remember your wiring diagram only a few posts earlier in the thread:-
Originally Posted by Nick H
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
... which clearly shows "POD TRONIX" ... like the vast majority of reg./rec., the Podtronics doesn't "ground" through its mounting ... its DC wires connected directly to the corresponding battery terminals, a fuse next to either battery terminal, if the fuse blows, it will isolate both battery and reg./rec from the rest of the bike, which will stop.

What a fuse next to battery +ve on a "negative ground" bike won't do is - as I posted before - protect the harness from something metal touching the battery +ve terminal and a random metal bit of bike. thumbsdown

Otoh, a fuse next to battery -ve on a "negative ground" bike will protect the wiring from that short. thumbsup And it'll protect the harness in the event of a short anywhere else in the harness. thumbsup

Originally Posted by quinten
electrical convention defaults the fuse to the switch side )
And where every new car and motorcycle made has it .
No idea on this "convention". confused Perhaps Quentin will enlighten us from his vast expertise?

However, his logical and technical failure here is every new car has and most new motorcycles have an electric starter. That present, "ground" cannot be fused because the current used by the starter far exceeds any other component's consumption, any fuse would have to have such a high rating, it couldn't protect from a short anywhere else in the harness.

It's specifically why I posted, "non-electric-start bike" in my post #854448 ...

Originally Posted by quinten
I'd ignore the advice about moving the fuse to the negative side .
What Quinten is also ignoring are the regular posts in BritBike and every other old-Britbike internet forum detailing wiring damage caused precisely as I've described, "something metal touching the battery +ve terminal and a random metal bit of bike". While I'm sure you aren't heavy enough to bend the seat pan to the battery terminals whistle , you never charge the battery without removing it from the bike and any tools kept under the seat are wrapped securely, you perhaps don't always remove the battery when doing a 'quick fix' under the seat ...? In the event of wiring damage due to an unprotected short, I wonder if Quentin's offering to nip over and fix your bike's wiring ...

Quentin's and my advice posted, you choose?

Hth.

Regards,
Posted By: Stuart Re: Boyer hater - 07/24/21 1:48 pm
Hi TT,
Originally Posted by triton thrasher
Quinten- Are you saying the red wire from the rectifier went to the battery return terminal in parallel with another red return/frame earth wire, which had a fuse in line?
Uh-uh, the problem is the old one - Lucas trying to fuse two separate power sources (battery and alternator/rectifier) with one fuse. facepalm

What neither Quentin nor JH (curiously) have remembered is moving the single fuse to between battery -ve and the rectifier never stopped:-
Originally Posted by john healy
if the fuse failed while the bike was running the bike would keep running
Hth.

Regards,
Posted By: quinten Re: Boyer hater - 07/24/21 2:00 pm
a tempest in a tea pot .

the fused side is not part of the original posters problem .
he has a fuse in circuit .

Haven't the foggiest idea of why Stuart would bring it up .
it may be a personal Crusade ( like ; I shall stake my claim on an obscure wiring point ! )
i cant say .
but i choose not to subscribe .
big deal , so what .

if Stuart wants to talk fuse side to death , on a post that has nothing to do with fusing ,
that I suppose is his issue .
Posted By: Stuart Re: Boyer hater - 07/24/21 3:31 pm
Quinten,
Originally Posted by quinten
the fused side is not part of the original posters problem
You have not read the thread. Post #854411:-
Originally Posted by Nick H
it's points again on this one.
First kick. Bang she's running.
Originally Posted by quinten
Haven't the foggiest idea of why Stuart would bring it up
You have not understood the thread. Post #854415:-
Originally Posted by Nick H
Here's how I wired:
Originally Posted by quinten
if Stuart wants to talk fuse side to death ,
I don't. I wanted simply to post my opinion (based on first-hand experience of fixing the problems) and advice and leave it for Nick The OP and any other reader to decide for themselves.

However, you persistently couldn't be bothered to read nor understand what'd been posted by others, consequently persistently posted drivel and nonsense ...

Originally Posted by quinten
it may be a personal Crusade
I suspect anyone understanding the thread will know who's on crusade ....

Originally Posted by quinten
i choose not to subscribe .
Three posts - albeit of logical and technical cobblers - says otherwise.

Choosing "not to subscribe" after having been shot down in flames not once but several times is too late ...
Posted By: Nick H Re: Boyer hater - 07/24/21 5:45 pm
Yeah, time out. Agree to disagree or whatever.
The bike runs with points. I'll get the carbs tuned in and deal with random leaks, etc and then try the Boyer again
with some new coils and plug wires.
And I'll be making some wiring changes thanks to the helpful posters here.
Im hoping with some vent holes in the electrics/tool box they will be cooled enough.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Boyer hater - 07/24/21 6:14 pm
Nick, if the points are running good, I’d stick with them until a time that you find that the persistent servicing and retiming of them either becomes a chore or takes up too much time when you have other commitments. For me it was the latter and I went onto the electronic ignition.

Just be sure you have the 12° degree advance AAU and not the 11°. The 11° is the 4 ca type and the cause for many an engine failure.
Posted By: Nick H Re: Boyer hater - 07/24/21 8:13 pm
Thanks, Yeah I'll do that for a while.

The problem may have been my plug wires. The Emgo dual coil is newish and has it's own wires. I don't think they are solid copper but they are working.

There is no continuity between the 6 volt Lucas coils outer case and the wire connectors if that is the shorting quinten was mentioning.
But they are old and needed a lot of corrosion cleaned from the HT connection points. Do coils otherwise wear out or weaken?
Posted By: DavidP Re: Boyer hater - 07/25/21 4:25 am
Every 'modern' bike has a multi-circuit fuse box, doesn't leave one guessing which element caused the one fuse to blow.
As a minimum these days I use a 15A on the common lead and a 5A in the circuit to the coils on the EI. Since the common lead goes directly from the battery to the single point on the frame, from which all other common wires originate, I don't see how the frame is still energized if the fuse blows.
Posted By: Nick H Re: Boyer hater - 07/29/21 9:47 pm
The motorcycle in question
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Andy Higham Re: Boyer hater - 07/30/21 9:14 pm
Take it away, it makes me feel sick
Posted By: triton thrasher Re: Boyer hater - 07/30/21 9:34 pm
Originally Posted by Nick H
The motorcycle in question
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


That’s a tragedy.
Posted By: NickL Re: Boyer hater - 07/30/21 10:24 pm
Put the EI back on, that way you can't ride it.
Posted By: DavidP Re: Boyer hater - 07/31/21 4:20 am
Not my cuppa tea, still it's nicely done.
I'm guilty of building a few when I worked at a shop run by a retired Devil's Disciple. But, he hated EI.
Posted By: Nick H Re: Boyer hater - 07/31/21 2:42 pm
I love the comments. Got a similar reaction on a Facebook Triumph Chopper page.
But this is a site for purists who admire stock motorcycles, not Choppa's.
You won't like my other Triumph either.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Allan G Re: Boyer hater - 07/31/21 2:55 pm
Each to their own. It’s not my cup of tea but it’s not my money either, so it’s none of my business.

I think if you’ve asked for help over a certain topic then that’s what should be assisted on.

You might be interested in the specials board on this site, it seems to have gone quiet of late but was bristling with info on specials/choppers/bobbers etc at one time.
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