Britbike forum
Posted By: Ragmanx Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/15/21 11:15 pm
I burned out my Podtronics Reg/Rec. My fault, hooked up my Battery Tender charger and forgot it was connected and burned out the rectifier.

It was a 200W single phase unit on a '68 A65L

Was about to order a new one from CBS when I saw another Podtronics 200 W, single phase that says I can eliminate the battery.
It is only $10 more.

Is anyone using this unit?

And does it work good?

Thank you,
SteveG
Posted By: Allan G Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/16/21 7:30 am
Using the boyer version, it’s basically like adding a capacitor but all built into the one box, you just disconnect the fuse to the battery and run the bike. The bike will perform just as if the battery was connected and working fine.

If you do fit one of these, I’d suggest fitting a fuse to it also. (Although in your case I’d do that even with the standard unit, then if you do start it again you should only pop the fuse)
Posted By: Ragmanx Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/16/21 5:27 pm
Thank you for your response.

I am running a Vape EI and the bike ran well before I burnt out the regulator so the new one should work well. I called CBS and they say they are recommend this Podtronic.

I will wire in the battery as before.and call it good.

If my battery goes out the capacitor will be used it restart the bike and get home.

The negative side of the battery is fused.

Is it still necessary to remove the fuse to the battery before restarting the bike?
Posted By: quinten Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/16/21 10:35 pm
if the bike is wired correctly
no extra fuses are needed other than... the one fuse on the Negitive Battery terminal .
( and pulling this fuse allows the bike to run off the capacitor )... within its limited capacity .

without a battery the bike needs no fuse .
the battey is the only dangerous power source ... the alternator is of such limited capacity
the a short circuit immediately drops voltage below ignition support and the engine stops .

the negjtive R/R output is added into the harness
right where the old original finned rectifier output
entered the harness ... ( which is not at the battery ) ...

i think the rectifier wire
was a brown with white stripe ... for a 68 A65
but where it is wired is more important than the wire color
colors change , but the wiring principal does not .

the R/R negitive output
enters the harness ... and maybe up to an ammeter , if there is one , before meeting
and changing color to (a blue/br wire ) and then to the one fuse located at the battery negitive .
( image shows wire color change at/through ammeter)
Brw/w connects to Blue/brw

..[Linked Image from cdn.shopify.com]
Posted By: Allan G Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/16/21 11:00 pm
I disagree quinten, a decent alternator has the ability to put out more than enough juice to power ignition and lighting at tick over with a cap of some form fitted. If I’m running the bike and a fault occurs in the wiring and happens to blow the battery fuse, normally the bike would die and you’d trouble shoot the issue, if there’s a cap fitted then it would run off the cap, until a) the fuse on the cap fails for the same reason, b) the fault then causes causes the cap to leak and fail.


You could put a single fuse between your grounding point or your live feed and then have the cap connected directly to the battery... this would work. But it also removes the advantage of having the cap (or a regulator rectifier unit with capacitance built in, the boyer I mentioned was the boyer power box, not the boyer electronic ignition) so by the cap abs the battery having separate fuses, should you have an issue with the battery or lend your battery to a mate so he can continue his ride wink then you’d just disconnect the battery fuse (insulate the live lead if this isn’t the fused end and you’ve taken the battery off) and run the bike as normal.

The cap is like having a second battery, like the battery it will give a steady flow of DC power through the loom, and will remove all the peaks and troughs of voltage from the reg/rec which is ultimately what the battery is doing once it’s reached full charge. However unlike the battery, if you stopped the engine you’d be lucky if you got a toot from the horn. Any stored charge is lost very quickly once a circuit has been made.

But I’m no expert, I’d be interested to hear Stuart or NickL’s opinion to that?
Posted By: Allan G Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/16/21 11:03 pm
Quinten, just read your post again. I’m not sure if your aware that the OP is
Discussing the pod with the inbuilt cap, not just the standard reg/rec.

Cheers.

Al
Posted By: NickL Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/16/21 11:19 pm
Simple explanation of adding a capacitor.
https://chselectricity.weebly.com/smoothing.html.
If like Allan your alternator setup is in good order, then the cap will allow
the engine to run on just the alternator output. If you wish to use a digital tacho
or electronic ignition it is also a good idea as any smoothing and spike suppressing
on the power supply is favourable for electronics.
A single fuse in the battery line will probably protect the bike's wiring but will not
protect the regulator if it's wired directly to the bike's supply. The alternator can
produce sufficient power to damage the rectifier/regulator, better to fuse that as
a separate entity. (In saying that,,,,,i haven't fused my ones separately............. bloody hypocrite eh??)
Posted By: Ragmanx Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/17/21 1:37 am
I've learnt a bit about Rec/Reg. Thank you!

I think, in my case I will wire it up the same way since both are identical, except that the new one has a capacitor built in.

I'll still run a battery and if the battery fails. I should still get home with the capacitor.

My only question is- Should my battery fail, will I still disconnect the battery?

SteveG
Posted By: quinten Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/17/21 2:47 am
Originally Posted by Ragmanx
I've learnt a bit about Rec/Reg. Thank you!

I think, in my case I will wire it up the same way since both are identical, except that the new one has a capacitor built in.

I'll still run a battery and if the battery fails. I should still get home with the capacitor.

My only question is- Should my battery fail, will I still disconnect the battery?

SteveG

yes , disconnect the battery
because the failed battery should still be considered a competing or parasitic load
for the meager alternator output at lower RPMs .
you want and need all the power to go to the ignition when kicking over .

If the battery is only discharged and not failed ... it can be hooked back up as soon as the bike is running .
you may not even need to unhook a discharged battery ... the capacitor will help , somewhat with kickstart
even with a discharge battery ( you don't have to unhook anything till you need to unhook it )

how you wire the new R/R can make a difference in how easy it is to disable the battery
and still have the R/R with capacitor still in circuit .
Posted By: Ragmanx Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/17/21 4:41 am
Thank you guys. Cleared up all my doubts.

Looks like the capacitor in the Podtronics reg. is a good feature.

Should receive the reg. on Saturday.

SteveG
Posted By: Stuart Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/17/21 5:49 pm
Hi Steve,

Sorry, late to the party. cool

Originally Posted by Ragmanx
I burned out my Podtronics Reg/Rec.
eek

Originally Posted by Ragmanx
200W single phase unit on a '68 A65L
Was about to order
when I saw another Podtronics 200 W, single phase that says I can eliminate the battery.
It is only $10 more
Originally Posted by Allan G
it’s basically like adding a capacitor but all built into the one box,
Ime, poor reasoning:-

. Capacitors have a limited life. When (not if) the capacitor you paid an extra ten bucks for (and ten bucks for a capacitor seems a lot) expires, you're going to throw away a fifty-buck reg./rec ...?

Originally Posted by Ragmanx
If my battery goes out the capacitor will be used it restart the bike and get home.
. Many, many things on these old heaps might stop you getting home. When the capacitor you paid an extra ten bucks for expires, it will take out the battery; far more likely than a modern AGM or gel battery "going out".

Ten bucks is better-spent towards breakdown insurance, that'd get you home if anything happened, including when the capacitor fails ...?

Originally Posted by Ragmanx
The negative side of the battery is fused.
Poor practice on 'positive ground' electrics.

If something metal touches the actual negative battery terminal and another part of the bike, a fuse in a wire connected to the negative battery terminal cannot prevent the short because the short is not through the fuse in that position. The wiring harness will be badly-damaged in only a few seconds, the bike itself shortly thereafter ... thumbsdown

'Positive ground' electrics, much better is to connect harness Red wires to one single Red wire, fuse in that single Red wire and only that single Red wire actually connected to the battery positive terminal. Then something metal touches the actual negative battery terminal and another part of the bike, only the fuse connected to battery positive will blow. thumbsup

As Quinten started to post, but you probably know already, the Podtronics Black wire is connected to the Brown/White wire that used to connect to the centre spade of the original rectifier. Brown/White also connects one ignition switch terminal and one Ammeter terminal (the other Ammeter terminal is connected by Brown/Blue to battery negative).

Podtronics fitting instructions about connecting the Red wire are confusing; thumbsdown to be clear, it should be connected to the battery positive terminal, nowhere else (because anywhere else is pointless).

Originally Posted by Allan G
I’d suggest fitting a fuse to it
Originally Posted by NickL
single fuse in the battery line
will not protect the regulator if it's wired directly to the bike's supply. The alternator can produce sufficient power to damage the rectifier/regulator, better to fuse that as a separate entity.
If you move the main/single fuse to the one-and-only (Red?) wire connected between the harness and the battery positive terminal, as I've written above, it protects more than any fuse in the Brown/Blue wire connected to the battery negative terminal.

The only thing neither of the above fuse positions protects is the reg./rec. itself. I concur with both Allan and Nick, the Pod should have a separate fuse in one of its DC wires, I suggest the Red one to battery positive.

Hth.

Regards,
Posted By: koan58 Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/17/21 10:17 pm
“Ime, poor reasoning:-
. Capacitors have a limited life. When (not if) the capacitor you paid an extra ten bucks for (and ten bucks for a capacitor seems a lot) expires, you're going to throw away a fifty-buck reg./rec ...?”

I think you are on shaky ground here Stuart. Of course all electronic, electrical and mechanical devices have a limited lifetime (MTBF).

I suspect you are thinking particularly of historical capacitors used in magnetos and traditional condensers. They were relatively short-lived, because of the materials available/used at the time.

However the capacitors available today offer much longer lifetimes, even electrolytics, which is what I guess is used in this application.
Such capacitors are common in PC’s and other electronics that continue to work for decades.

Perhaps NickL or someone else may enlighten, but these caps tend to last longer when they are used, rather than sitting idle in a flat discharged circuit for long periods.
Posted By: NickL Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/17/21 11:25 pm
As far as i can see, they don't specify the capacitor material/type or value.
So, it's hard to say what sort of life you would get.
A typical electrolytic that i would pick would have a life of around 20,000hrs
That would include running at near maximum temperature (105C) for 50%
of it's working life. After that time the value would possibly deteriorate but
to be honest i've had the same old 6800uf cap on my t120 for around 20 years
that was one i'd had on the shelf for years as well. I can still start the bike
with just the cap and no battery. I've never measured it's value, it was one
out of an old power supply i had.
They do vary in quality and specification though.
Posted By: koan58 Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/18/21 12:05 am
Thanks NickL, when you say 20,000hrs do you mean 2+ years or say 20+ years at 2.4 hrs per day? I suspect the latter but I know the bones are going to be picked. I don't imagine 105degC happening much in normal operation, so I suspect the cap will have a good chance of living well beyond that spec.
As you describe, your (presumably electrolytic) cap has lived for quite some time.
Posted By: NickL Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/18/21 12:30 am
Yes, the cap's life should be as you say, and yes this is an electrolytic cap.
The main thing to consider is the applicable ripple current, that governs the
cap's physical size so although you can get 10,00uf caps rated at 35 or 50v
that are very small, you really should use one's with a large ripple capacity
if you intent to run battery-less.
I would suspect a polymer or similar cap is what is embedded in those regulators
as they are small but i don't know for sure.
Posted By: koan58 Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/18/21 1:00 am
Thanks NickL, food for thought.
Posted By: Ragmanx Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/18/21 4:22 am
Holy Cow!

I don't mind saying that you guys are over my pay grade.

I read over the comments several and think I get the gist and am learning a lot.

Does this sound correct.

There 4 wires from reg. - 2 yellow, 1 black and 1 red.

1 yellow to each alternator lead

1 black to battery pos+ terminal

1 red to battery neg- terminal (this lead fused)

I think that is what the above comments indicate.

I don't intend to run the bike without a battery.

If some reason the battery quits I can un fuse the battery and run on the cap.

Sound about right?

RagmanX (SteveG)
Posted By: NickL Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/18/21 4:37 am
Normal colour code is;
Yellow =Alternator stator wires
Black = NEGATIVE - (put your fuse in here)
Red = POSITIVE + normally goes to frame

If the unit has a built in capacitor you cannot disconnect just the capacitor.
It will be in the circuit all the time. You won't notice it. (Until you want to start the bike with a flat battery)
Just connect the unit up and use it.

The above comments are related to fitting a separate capacitor, don't worry about them.
Posted By: Ragmanx Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/18/21 6:06 am
OK, got it,
Thanx to one and all!
SteveG
Posted By: Stuart Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/18/21 2:01 pm
Hi Nick, Steve,
Originally Posted by NickL
Normal colour code is;
Red = POSITIVE + normally goes to frame
Ime, no; connecting the Pod Red wire to the frame doesn't serve any useful purpose - there must then be another wire from the frame to battery +ve.

If electrical circuits are going to give problems, it's more often at connections, not in wires. Connecting the Pod Red wire to the frame and another wire to the frame to complete the Pod circuit to battery positive is two connections that don't serve any useful purpose. Hence I advise connecting the Pod Red wire directly to battery positive.

I'm sure the bike has other Red wires connected to the frame. But why would you depend on them for battery charging, and for charging the capacitor to run the ignition when the battery "goes out", when you don't have to?

Hth.

Regards,
Posted By: Stuart Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/18/21 3:02 pm
Hi Dave,
Originally Posted by koan58
Originally Posted by Stuart
Ime, poor reasoning:-

. Capacitors have a limited life. When (not if) the capacitor you paid an extra ten bucks for (and ten bucks for a capacitor seems a lot) expires, you're going to throw away a fifty-buck reg./rec ...?
I think you are on shaky ground here
Nope, you've missed my point:-
Originally Posted by Stuart
Many, many things on these old heaps might stop you getting home. When the capacitor you paid an extra ten bucks for expires, it will take out the battery; far more likely than a modern AGM or gel battery "going out".
... I've been riding for nearly fifty years and driving for nearly forty; I'd have to sit down and have a long think to remember all the vehicles I've ridden and driven, not just on nice smooth first-world tarmac roads. I've never experienced a battery "go out" suddenly, not ever, not even lead-'n'-liquid-acid batteries that spent their entire lives being shaken ridden or driven over unmade tracks. Afaicr, the shortest life I've ever had from a battery was four years from an original Lucas T160 battery - it was accidentally kicked over by the guy who made my first set of Goodridge hoses. Ime, failing batteries ordinarily give plenty of warning.

... Otoh, whichever way you want to theorise, afaict if I'd ever bothered with even a 21st century capacitor, if it failed suddenly, I'd have been stranded.

Originally Posted by koan58
these caps tend to last longer when they are used, rather than sitting idle in a flat discharged circuit for long periods.
Another factor Steve might want to consider, depending how often he plans to use his bike?

Hth.

Regards,
Posted By: Allan G Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/18/21 9:03 pm
I’d think any cap that you bought off the shelf would have been in a discharged state for a long period, however if kept in circuit with a battery (and if both are coupled on the same side of the key switch) The cap would be kept charged for a reasonable length of time until the battery was drained or the fuse removed from the cap (granted I don’t know how long the cap would hold a charge for in a disconnected state???

Thinking that caps and ignition condensers are much the same thing, I’ve had ignition condensers with the 1970 stamping on them work better than brand new condensers
Posted By: Ragmanx Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/18/21 9:46 pm
I'll be wiring it up on Saturday.

While we are on the subject;

I usually hook up my Battery Tender charger after a ride to keep the battery topped off.

Been doing it for years on my bikes and lawn equipment. Always served me well and extends the life on these small batteries for years, in most cases.

The BSA is different, as you know, because or the positive ground.

I wired the charger the usual way, and worked as usual

But last week I forgot to disconnect it before starting the bike, That move destroyed the charger.

Also the battery stopped accepting a charge.

Do you think that was also the cause of my Podtronic reg. failure?

SteveG
Posted By: DavidP Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/19/21 5:55 am
Originally Posted by Ragmanx
The BSA is different, as you know, because or the positive ground.

I wired the charger the usual way, and worked as usual

But last week I forgot to disconnect it before starting the bike, That move destroyed the charger.

Also the battery stopped accepting a charge.

Do you think that was also the cause of my Podtronic reg. failure?

SteveG
Wired the charger the usual way. I hope that doesn't mean that you reversed the polarity to match your other vehicles.
There's a reason they put that sticker under the seat, "Warning, positive Earth."
Posted By: Ragmanx Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/19/21 6:06 am
Are you saying I should wire the charger with it's positive connection to the negative post of the battery and the neg to the positive?

SteveG
Posted By: Allan G Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/19/21 7:30 am
I think the whole earth thing has added confusion to you.

Try think of it more as a simple circuit. One your bike the frame acts as part of the circuit on the return side to the battery (electron flows negative to positive) so whether it be the reg rec or the battery tender lead, the red always goes to red at the battery and the black always goes to the negative. Depending on whether you have an ammeter or not determines on whether your regrec can connect directly to the battery or the other side of the ammeter to the battery.

I’ve tried starting bikes up when they are on an opti-mate before now, usually the optimate just cuts out until you unplug and plug it back in again. It hasn’t damaged the optimate, the battery or the reg/rec. what I have had is where the battery has been fitted the wrong way around and this has blown the fuse when the revs have picked up. (But because of the fuse saving the day it hasn’t caused further problems)
Posted By: MarcB Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/19/21 5:05 pm
Originally Posted by Ragmanx
The BSA is different, as you know, because or the positive ground.

I wired the charger the usual way, and worked as usual

But last week I forgot to disconnect it before starting the bike, That move destroyed the charger.

Also the battery stopped accepting a charge.
I'm never had issues with my battery tender. It charges like all other vehicles, shuts off when complete, doesn't harm anything.

The only gotcha is the little plastic cap over the Battery Tender connector that's hooked to my battery. The exposed pin is Bat Neg which isn't an issue on a negative ground vehicle. On the BSA however, I always make sure I replace that cap when I disconnect the tender, lest it should touch the frame.
Posted By: NickL Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/19/21 10:45 pm
Originally Posted by Stuart
Hi Nick, Steve,
Originally Posted by NickL
Normal colour code is;
Red = POSITIVE + normally goes to frame
Ime, no; connecting the Pod Red wire to the frame doesn't serve any useful purpose - there must then be another wire from the frame to battery +ve.

If electrical circuits are going to give problems, it's more often at connections, not in wires. Connecting the Pod Red wire to the frame and another wire to the frame to complete the Pod circuit to battery positive is two connections that don't serve any useful purpose. Hence I advise connecting the Pod Red wire directly to battery positive.

I'm sure the bike has other Red wires connected to the frame. But why would you depend on them for battery charging, and for charging the capacitor to run the ignition when the battery "goes out", when you don't have to?

Hth.

Regards,


I should have put the 'normally goes to frame[' in brackets mate. I was just stating that the batt+ is normally connected to frame.
Not to actually connect the reg + there.

Nick
Posted By: triton thrasher Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/20/21 10:15 am
Originally Posted by Ragmanx
Are you saying I should wire the charger with it's positive connection to the negative post of the battery and the neg to the positive?

SteveG


No.
Posted By: Ragmanx Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/21/21 10:31 pm
Well got the Podtronics installed ready to go.

Turns out my alternator stator is toast.

Ordered this one-

https://www.feked.com/alternator-stator-genuine-lucas-47239-single-phase-12v-high-output.html

Any comments?

Thank you,
SteveG
Posted By: MarcB Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/22/21 1:32 am
How did you determine the stator has an issue? Was the Podtronic fine all along? And what about your battery that is "toast"? How did you get that?
Posted By: Allan G Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/22/21 6:34 am
That stator will work fine. It’s a shame you didn’t know this before, you could have bought a 3 phase high output stator and regrec and never had another battery issue again. The nice thing with the 3 phase kit is you reach max output at 2000-3000 revs, with single phase I believe max output is something like 5000+ so unless your giving it some you don’t always meet max charging capacity. However you should still be fine with the RM23 which you’ve linked there. It’s still better than stock.
Posted By: Ragmanx Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/22/21 6:42 am
I believe I said the stator was "toast" not the battery. Small misunderstanding- No worries.

Installed the new Pod. and the battery is still not receiving any charge.

Pulled the primary cover and discovered the insulation on the wires deteriorated and bare wires were touching..

In the beginning, I thought the stator was good because I got a 3 ohm reading from the stator wires. My mistake.

The was reg.was, and probably still is good.

So now I have a new reg. and soon a new stator.
.
Time will tell if these changes solve the charging problem when I receive the stator and install it.

Will post the results

Thank you.

SteveG.
Posted By: triton thrasher Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/22/21 8:38 am
Originally Posted by Ragmanx
Well got the Podtronics installed ready to go.

Turns out my alternator stator is toast.

Ordered this one-

https://www.feked.com/alternator-stator-genuine-lucas-47239-single-phase-12v-high-output.html

Any comments?

Thank you,
SteveG

Seeing as you ask, the stators sold as “genuine Lucas” are said not to be the best ones.
Posted By: triton thrasher Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/22/21 8:44 am
Quote
Pulled the primary cover and discovered the insulation on the wires deteriorated and bare wires were touching..

Can you not just re-insulate them?
Posted By: Stuart Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/22/21 1:56 pm
Hi Steve,
Originally Posted by Ragmanx
Battery Tender charger
The BSA is different, as you know, because or the positive ground.
Nope, no different. Electrons go the same way 'round any DC circuit; "ground" is an imaginary concept, nothing to do with Physics.

The only reason you'd experience difficulty is if you didn't connect the Battery Tender leads to the actual battery terminals, you were connecting either BT -ve or +ve lead to somewhere else on the bike.

Originally Posted by Ragmanx
last week I forgot to disconnect it before starting the bike, That move destroyed the charger.
Curious ... suggests the alternator was working and the BT doesn't have any protection against being connected the wrong way 'round (which is effectively what starting the bike's engine/alternator did)? confused

Originally Posted by Allan G
tried starting bikes up when they are on an opti-mate before now, usually the optimate just cuts out until you unplug and plug it back in again. It hasn’t damaged the optimate,
+1; protection against being connected the wrong way 'round.

Originally Posted by Ragmanx
Perhaps better asking for comments before you ordered it? Since you asked:-

. Several previous posts from people who bought and fitted them say they don't give any more power at low rpm than standard RM21.

. Those particular Wassell pattern stators are available in the US, curious why you'd order from GB? confused

. Otoh, available from another British dealer are original Lucas RM23 stators, that do make more power than RM21 at all rpm, for less money than Feked have relieved you of.

Originally Posted by Allan G
shame you didn’t know this before, you could have bought a 3 phase high output stator and regrec and never had another battery issue again.
3 phase kit is you reach max output at 2000-3000 revs,
single phase I believe max output is something like 5000+
Not so.

All alternators generate more with increasing rotor rpm just, at higher rpm, for the same given rpm increase, the Amps increase is less.

5,000 rpm was just a comparison point 'original Lucas' happened to choose. Afaik, Wassell Lucas haven't ever published rpm/Amps plots for any of their pattern stators.

'Original Lucas' rated both the aforementioned RM23 and the RM24 high-output 3-phase for 14.5A @ 5,000 rpm, but the 3-phase's output increases faster at lower rpm - 'original Lucas' advertised 75% of rated @ 2,400 rpm for a single-phase like the RM23, but 85% of rated @ 2,400 rpm for a RM24 3-phase; i.e. a gnat's under 11A from the RM23 but over 12A from the RM24.

Hth.

Regards,
Posted By: Stuart Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/22/21 1:57 pm
Hi Nick,
Originally Posted by NickL
I should have put the 'normally goes to frame[' in brackets mate. I was just stating that the batt+ is normally connected to frame.
Not to actually connect the reg + there.
I suspected that was what you meant, smile more making sure Steve was clear as well.

Regards,
Posted By: koan58 Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/22/21 10:45 pm
Stuart:
“. Several previous posts from people who bought and fitted them say they don't give any more power at low rpm than standard RM21.”

I was wondering if you have anything more rigorous than anecdotal evidence for this comment?

The power curve at low rpm between an RM21 and original RM23 will only differ very slightly. It would require accurate measuring instruments and good experimental method to graph this small difference, and also to show any difference with the “genuine” Lucas RM23 at this low rpm part of the curve.

I very much doubt that anyone without such equipment/technique could convincingly discern the difference between any of the above mentioned stators at low rpm.
The differences will of course be much more obvious at high rpm with ordinary ammeter/voltmeter.

If low rpm performance is of importance, which I think it is for ordinary road-bike bigger twin users, the best (Lucas) answer I agree is the high output RM24.
Posted By: NickL Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/22/21 11:24 pm
Some years ago i was asked to provide a regulator for PM alternators the application
was for small wind turbines. I had been making a couple of different units for bikes for
awhile and word gets around etc. The stator winding for these devices was really nicely
wound and had an air gap of around 2.5 thou, these were very efficient devices, they
would give around 25a @ 48v for large battery charging. When i first agreed to take on
the project i didn't realise the overall complexity of what was required and the job grew
considerably. The use of shunt style unit on these was not really so straightforward as
when the unit was shunted to control output the coupling on the stator was so good that
the braking effect would shear the drive gear system. The original unit ended up with
several stages of control and worked out at around 3 times the predicted price, consequently
i only ever built a few.
It's a digression i know, sorry. I also worked with a guy who repaired and rebuilt alternators
here, he wanted to reproduce a package to replace the lucas rm 19-21-23-24 with his new
setup. He had a great reputation for mag/dyn/alternator winding and had done a lot of work
on the project already. He had heaps of test notes regarding windings wire gauge etc on
lucas and his version of stators. The project was never pursued as the higher output of his
upgrade forced the use of a regulator and many customers would not want to pay the extra.
This was around 18 years ago now and since then the chap has died. Shame, but at that
time we had a very good setup that would provide a comfortable 15a @ 3500 RPM. We just
needed orders for 200 at a time for it to be worth while.
Posted By: Stuart Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/22/21 11:51 pm
Hi Dave,
Originally Posted by koan58
Originally Posted by Stuart
. Several previous posts from people who bought and fitted them say they don't give any more power at low rpm than standard RM21.
The power curve at low rpm between an RM21 and original RM23 will only differ very slightly.
Nope:-
Originally Posted by Stuart
'original Lucas' advertised 75% of rated @ 2,400 rpm for a single-phase like the RM23,
... 'original Lucas' rated the RM21 for 10.5A @ 5,000 rpm and, as I say, the RM23 for 14.5A @ 5,000 rpm; 75% is 7.875 Amps and 10.875 Amps respectively, an extra 3A at low rpm is a bit more than "differ very slightly" on these old heaps.

Hth.

Regards,
Posted By: koan58 Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/22/21 11:54 pm
Interesting stuff NickL Was it gonna be a potted stator? Presumably using an existing (std Lucas rotor?)
The [email protected] rpm seems like it may have been a bit more powerful than the RM24. Was it 3-phase?

Its a very interesting digression, and one worth knowing about! Thanks, I'm glad folk do this sort of stuff.
Posted By: Ragmanx Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/22/21 11:54 pm
Hi Stuart -

You said - ". Otoh, available from another British dealer are original Lucas RM23 stators, that do make more power than RM21 at all rpm, for less money than Feked have relieved you of."

I checked around for the Lucas RM-23 at other dealers and found them even more expensive. The cost with 2 grommets and freight to the US. came to $116 with Feked.
I could not find any dealer, in any country, less expensive, but I only checked about 6 places.

I receive great service from all the dealers I have dealt with, but this time I went with the lowest price, with the same product available. Old Brit parts is a very competitive market, as you know.

So, with all help I've been given, I'll wait 'till I receive the stator and see how everything works out.

Thank you all,
SteveG
Posted By: koan58 Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/23/21 2:13 am
Hi Stuart,
I concur with your statement:
“... 'original Lucas' rated the RM21 for 10.5A @ 5,000 rpm and, as I say, the RM23 for 14.5A @ 5,000 rpm; 75% is 7.875 Amps and 10.875 Amps respectively, an extra 3A at low rpm is a bit more than "differ very slightly" on these old heaps.”

You are however, placing much faith in the advertised figures. I agree that is all we have to go on, till we know better.
Promotional ads from Lucas in ~1980 did suggest that the 3-phase system would solve all my issues (which it did).

My situation was a pre-unit with failed magneto. Mistral mag replacement system with Rita sorted that for 30 years. But the new installed RM21 I found inadequate for the demands. So I went to the high output RM24 with 2 Zeners kit from Mistral. I ran this for several years with the Rita and no battery with no problem (no capacitor). It went to Morocco and back like that in 1984.

Since then I have run a battery, and have changed to Boyer IV. It works well (Boyer III it worked well too).

Never known of these low voltage issues, but I also make high quality bespoke harnesses, as yourself.
Posted By: NickL Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/23/21 2:24 am
Originally Posted by koan58
Interesting stuff NickL Was it gonna be a potted stator? Presumably using an existing (std Lucas rotor?)
The [email protected] rpm seems like it may have been a bit more powerful than the RM24. Was it 3-phase?

Its a very interesting digression, and one worth knowing about! Thanks, I'm glad folk do this sort of stuff.


Used lucas rotor, stator was going to be potted test/trial unit wasn't. A '6 phase' arrangement as i remember.
Posted By: koan58 Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/23/21 2:40 am
" A '6 phase' arrangement as i remember."
Blimey, how does that happen? 6 pole rotor (normal) presumably the stator will have 6 wires and require 2 3-phase reg/recs?
Or have I lost the thread?
Posted By: NickL Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/23/21 2:56 am
Not as complicated as you think really, just look at it as 2 x 3 phase setups common output.
The stator was staggered with 2 x 3 phase sets of windings. It was a bit larger.
As we used decent winding wire the regulator was a combination of series and shunt. We didn't have
the problem of insulation breakdown associated with series setups and windings going open circuit
generating huge spikes.
Posted By: DavidP Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/23/21 5:05 am
I believe the RM24 uses 9 poles, as opposed to 6 for the single-phase stators.
It would be interesting to build a test rig, similar to the one used to test Zener diodes, to compare current and voltage output at different RPM.
My only comparison came when I installed an RM24 on my A65. The voltage measured at the battery goes to 14V at a little over 2000RPM. I no longer need to ride five miles after a short trip to the store just to recharge the battery.
Posted By: Ragmanx Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/24/21 12:22 am
Originally Posted by triton thrasher
Quote
Pulled the primary cover and discovered the insulation on the wires deteriorated and bare wires were touching..

Can you not just re-insulate them?

Not if you sathese wires!
Bare going into the sator.
Posted By: Ragmanx Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/24/21 2:45 am
Holy cow. Did I write that!
Let me translate:

Not if you saw these wires!
Bare going into stator

That's somewhat better......

SteveG
.
Posted By: Allan G Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/24/21 6:54 am
Originally Posted by Ragmanx
Holy cow. Did I write that!
Let me translate:

Not if you saw these wires!
Bare going into stator

That's somewhat better......

SteveG
.

I thought you were typing with a Yorkshire dialect laughing

Liquid tape is perfect for these areas
Posted By: Ragmanx Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/24/21 4:50 pm
Ha!

I frequently type with a Yorkshire dialect, although I have no idea what that is!

My diagnosis of my problems with the charging system have left a lot to be desired. Hopefully the new stator will be the last part to be throw at it!

We will see in a about 10 days when it arrives.

Wish me luck!

SteveG
Posted By: Allan G Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/24/21 9:41 pm
Good luck
Posted By: koan58 Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/24/21 11:58 pm
Well the stator and reg/rec will be new, so assuming the wiring is good, you will see some charging at some rpm. Hopefully the rotor still has reasonable magnetic strength, that will be the remaining uncertainty.
If the system voltage is at least 13V at 3000 rpm with the headlight on, I think you'll be ok.
Posted By: Ragmanx Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/25/21 5:32 am
OK. Thanx guys.


Will post results.

SteveG
Posted By: Stuart Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/25/21 6:15 pm
Hi Dave,
Originally Posted by koan58
concur with your statement:
Originally Posted by Stuart
... 'original Lucas' rated the RM21 for 10.5A @ 5,000 rpm and, as I say, the RM23 for 14.5A @ 5,000 rpm; 75% is 7.875 Amps and 10.875 Amps respectively, an extra 3A at low rpm is a bit more than "differ very slightly" on these old heaps.
You are however, placing much faith in the advertised figures.
The quote says "rated".

Triumph, BSA and Norton had enough faith to repeat the ratings (or the corresponding 120W and 180W) in their contemporary advertising (somewhere in the electric-start Commando advertising is "15A @ 6,000 rpm").

The standard Triumph workshop manual test for an RM21 is minimum 9A AC @ 3,000 rpm with a 1-Ohm resistor between the stator wires; those more familiar with BSA and Norton workshop manuals can confirm what they used.

Originally Posted by koan58
Promotional ads from Lucas in ~1980 did suggest that the 3-phase system would solve all my issues (which it did).
High-output 3-phase was advertised from launch in summer '78 with the previously-mentioned 75% and 85% @ 2,400 rpm, presumably to indicate the superiority of 3-phase. You placed faith in the advertised figures and have positive first-hand experience.

Originally Posted by koan58
If the system voltage is at least 13V at 3000 rpm with the headlight on,
"13V" based on ...?

Regards,
Posted By: Andy Higham Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/25/21 7:13 pm
"13V" based on ...?

A 12v system is actually a 13.8v system. Over 14v is required to charge the battery
Posted By: Stuart Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/25/21 7:23 pm
Hi Andy,
Originally Posted by Andy Higham
A 12v system is actually a 13.8v system. Over 14v is required to charge the battery
Steve The OP's bike has a reg./rec. (the Podtronics of the thread title); if the battery is fully-charged?

Regards,
Posted By: koan58 Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/25/21 9:17 pm
Stuart:
“"13V" based on ...?”

Nothing terribly precise, only that it is a figure a little above battery voltage, so illustrating that the generated supply is exceeding the demand of lights and ignition (I guesstimate ~8A), which even the standard alternator should do (when new) at 3000 rpm (spec’d as 9A minimum).

My full post was:
“Well the stator and reg/rec will be new, so assuming the wiring is good, you will see some charging at some rpm. Hopefully the rotor still has reasonable magnetic strength, that will be the remaining uncertainty.
If the system voltage is at least 13V at 3000 rpm with the headlight on, I think you'll be ok.”

This makes it clear that the only remaining uncertainty was the rotor magnetism (which is highly unlikely to be as good as when new) but if the parameters in my last sentence were met, then the OP should be ok.
It seemed to be clear, straightforward English to me.

I would hope that the higher output RM23 will result in rather more than 13V in that test (with its supposedly extra ~3A at those rpm), but some of that anticipated extra may be negated by some loss of rotor magnetism. Hence my suggestion to actually test it.

Regards.
Posted By: Ragmanx Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/26/21 1:59 am
Anxious to receive the stator on the 25th. I will install the next day. Hope the wires will be cooperative, threading thru the case.
And the rotor is still magnetic.

That will tell the story, we will see.

SteveG
Posted By: Ragmanx Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/26/21 1:59 am
Anxious to receive the stator on the 25th. I will install the next day. Hope the wires will be cooperative, threading thru the case.
And the rotor is still magnetic.

That will tell the story, we will see.

SteveG
Posted By: Ragmanx Re: Podtronics Rec/Reg - 03/30/21 11:38 pm
Charging problem solved!

Installed the Lucas stator. Fired first kick. Charges over 14 volts on fast rev. Perfect.

Wound up installing the 16 amp. stator, new battery, and Podtronics reg/rec

Probably didn't need the reg. The stator was the culprit. and now I have a spare reg. and that's fine.

Thank you all for the valuable input. I learned a lot!

SteveG
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