Britbike forum Forums Thread Like Summary - rim locks

I have to put tires on a Norton that has rim locks on the back. I have never put them back in on any of my bikes due to them being a big PITA but may have to this time. Any secrets to the task that make it easier?

I wouldn't let this chap near one of my wheels. The video was too disturbing to watch the whole thing!

We should be grateful to everyone who hasn’t produced a video like that.

I had a front row seat to Gordon's front tire failure. After offering the obligatory "tablespoon in my tank bag" guffaw, we all lent a hand to change out the offending inner tube.
My observation was a man usually as cool as James Bond, was shaken, not stirred.

Well, I'd disagree with that a bit.

Six posts were just sort of back and forth silliness.
Four posts were requests for clarification.

So ten posts total weren't too much practical use.

BUT!

Three posts referred to "how to do it" with wooden spreaders or installing the rim locks first.
Ten posts were long term riders sharing their experience as to why they don't think rim locks are much use, and they don't use them.
Eight posts were long term riders sharing their experience as to why they are useful and why they use them.

Twenty-one posts sharing experience as to how, why, or why not seems pretty useful to me!

Lannis

I only skipped around through it, but I found that video interesting on multiple levels. First, it's not the least bit unbelievable. Rather, it's an excellent example of the quality of advice given in many youtube videos.

Then, there's the technical. Very early he advises, with complete assurance and professionalism, that you should leave some air in so you won't pinch the tube. Then, ten minutes later he says, with the same assurance and professionalism, that the tube "probably" has been pinched (nb. note his use of the passive voice, as if in some way unrelated to him the tube managed to get itself pinched), but that we shouldn't worry about that detail because he's going to use a new tube. Then, after another fifteen minutes, he has the tire back on the rim and expresses the "hope" that "we" haven't pinched the tube, simultaneously crossing his fingers while at the same time generously sharing credit with the audience for any pinching that might have taken place

Then there's the fact the video is on a channel where the description of it says "In this video we work alongside Dave Mitchell (from Michell's Classics) as he goes about changing a tyre on a classic motorcycle," which means Dave actually is a "professional" in the motorcycle industry, and that both he and the owner of the youtube channel independently thought that video was a good example of how to change a tire. Whether or not you would be too embarrassed to appear in a video as, um, interesting as this one, kudos to Dave for not being.

Finally, the video received 34 comments, most of which express thanks for the great information that was presented.

Or you can use a metal trash can. Conveniently, the one I have used for some 50 years spends it idle time as an actaul trash can. It is easy to find when you need it. It seems perfect for both of its callings.

Any form of hose can be slit, and formed over the rim. It protects the wheel and adds a bit of class to the shop.

With the exception of an old rock hard tire (MM we have been there), on a vintage tire you should only require a pair of 8" tire irons. In nearly ALL cases, needing any thing longer and you are doing something wrong. My favorite irons 8" made by Dowidat in Germany. They have one modifacation. The ribs along the edge at the spoon end are smoothed over to prevent them from damaging the rim.

Dowidat 8" Tire Irons

Because our rims DO NOT include a safety bead, breaking the bead should not be a problem. Let out ALL of the air out, and remove the nuts from the tube stem and rim locks. Push the rim locks into the rim to free them from the bead. Typically your heel pushing on the side of the tire while on the floor will free the bead. Remember push in the rim locks as you go around.

Lubrication is essential to success. It can be used removing and installing the tire. My favorite is a product called P-80 made in New Jersey. And don't forget to liberarly lubricate the tube with talcum powder. It helps keeping the tube from folding over itself, and clumsy use of tire irons from puncturing the tube.

The key to all this is coming to the understanding of the ability to move the tires circumference revelent to the rim so you can slip the bead over the edge of the rim.

The area of the rim where the spoke nipple reside is what is called a Drop Center. If you move the edge of the tire's bead into the drop center the opposite bead is moved almost to the edge of the rim. It is easy from here on. This is where you want to start with spoon end of your 8" iron. Then with the flat end, take small bites a few inches from where you started, Then work your way around the rim rotate the iron to allow it to slip out of between the bead and the rim. Remember samll bites!

Find a place to put the bead into the drop center without rim locks look for the area opposite the tube stem. With rim locks you have to find a spot between the rim locks to push the bead into the drop center.

Replacing the tire you work backwards from the point where the bead is in the drop center and work your way around the rim taking small bites.

Needed: Metal trash can, two 8" tire irons, Rubber lube (P-80) and some talc (baby powder).
(I have to quitas it is near 7pm and the UPS truck is about to arrive. Wrote this while working - it might need some editing)
John

I don't get the spreader bit if we are talking about the thing that goses inside the tyre & pulls down on the case to stop it moving there is no big trick.
Do the rim lock up tight before mounting the tyre
Mount the tyre as normal
Remove the valve to blast the tyre up onto the rim
Put the valve back in & inflate the tyre about 1/2 pressure
Push the rim lock up then allow it to come down, tighten the nut then fully inflate the tyre
Listen for HISS indicating you have pinched th tube so now have to do it all over again.

I found that a “correct” small block of wood as a spreader was the answer for me. Wished I’d hit on it before!
My $.02: Why use’em? I didn’t previously, until I had a very low rear tire, in residential streets, and rolled the tire off the rim. When that steel wheel hit the pavement, it was like Ice. Talking to an old timer, he said “what if you are at speed”? Then the flat tire worms it’s way on/off the rim, big control problem. Along with the “Ice”, and the possibility of it getting off completely to the side and fouling the rear wheel…. All this happening quickly, and faced with no prior practice. Now I’m not a Brit on the freeway Guy here but figured I’d give’m a try, and struggled until finding a bit of help. BTW, They will help prevent low pressure valve stem damage becoming a flat also. Lots of reasons.
Now,…. For some reason, all this logic has not forced me to do the front. Don’t see them there either.

Why "may have to this time"?

Mike. I think it ( thank you again Mr Healy) has something to do with rim design. Modern bikes rims are different from ours.

Avon’s are a pain for me no matter what and I believe they stay on our old rims better IMO. I usually have a problem getting them to seat. K70s go on almost by hand.

Gordon

Another reason why I've never messed with them. Every one I've ever taken out looked like it was more likely to cause a flat rather than rescue you from one.

This is all it takes to ruin your day. That little black tack. Hidden in the tread of my front tire. If you've ridden with me you know one of the first things I do before a ride is check my tire pressures. I do not remember if I added air to the tire that morning but just before lunch/noon I noticed the front tire going down. Long story short........I had a front tire come completely off the rim....while I was still moving. (witnessed by someone on this site)

That is the actual tack that started it all.

My experience was very similar to what KC wrote about at the beginning of this thread. Except that I could see it all happening. So you're going to have a hard time convincing me there's no way a tire can slip on a rim.

Gordon

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Imagine watching your front tire wadding up against the forks and then making it pass only to do it again….and again…and again. I just knew I was going over the handlebars. I’d been slowing down all the time but still was moving pretty good. Rough shoulder on my side of the road but on the other side a 2’ bank that looked to be the softest landing spot. I’m not sure how much luck was involved but I made it to that bank and laid it over. Bike in ditch and me on the bank. Remember Rowan and Martins Laugh In……the guy on the tricycle at the stop light?

No name man was behind me and thought I was having a heart attack. When he got to me I was getting up telling him I never even had a chance to pull the clutch in…I was to busy hanging on. He grabs the bike and starts to roll it to a better spot and says “Damn the tire is off the rim!”. Try that at home in your garage to see how much fun that is.

I was blessed to be surrounded by good friends. I carry tools and spares and there’s probably not an easier bike to fix a flat on than a unit single. But I was a mess……and they finally told me to back off and they’d get it. I took a short walk and tried to recover. Shook……yep. I do remember at one point during all this thinking how stupid it was for my armored riding pants to be rolled up and riding on the seat behind me.

This happened at Mike Gs OSMR ( the op on this thread) next year I rode that bike back up there ( 1200+ round trip). I think Mike was the first to notice I had added a rim lock to the front.

Truth be known it was probably more the tires fault as anything but I’ll save that for another story.

Gordon……WWJHD

And we all still had a good time at the lunch stop! On a serious note though, Most every wheel that I've discarded the rim locks from were rears not fronts. Even this Norton I have to do only has them on the back which has a Dunlop K71. The front has an Avon Speedmaster ribbed tire and the locks are gone.

K.C. was speaking of a low rear tire.

https://www.britbike.com/forums/ubb...ar-wheel-anti-rotation-cleats#Post818316

I am one of the “don’t use rim locks on my Brit bikes” school, but I’ve raced motocross for 50 years, and every dirt bike I raced had them because of 11 to 13 psi tires, which makes them necessary there. Almost all those dirt bikes had “modern” rubber covered rim locks that work quite well and don’t puncture a tube unless you really get it in wrong. The original British ones I’ve seen have rivets through the center and steel on the backside and can puncture or pinch a tube much more readily. If you are going to use rimlocks you might think about changing over to the more modern design. Just sayin’.

I can verify that that tack was almost pristine but I suspect the poster was only expressing surprise at how well it stood up to the treatment.
My rim lock story is: first few times I had to fix a flat rear on the Tbolt I put them back in. I pinch the tube about half the time. The last time I was struggling so bad with the second lock I threw it across the barn and put the tire on with only one in. Bad idea. First time I needed to balance a rear. Probably some of you remember me doing this at Windy's campground. Next tire change I took the other one out and haven't missed them. Carriage bolts in the holes.
I did experience a flat at speed on the rear once (when the locks were in). Never on a front. I too believe the modern tire will prevent tube creep as long as there's air in it. I'll probably continue to gamble and hope
Gordon, I think this is a record. My longest post

Rim locks ......I don't use them with tube tires... I used to do a lot of drag racing years ago with a 650 Triumph street bike,4.25 K81 tire at normal pressures used then...Tire never slipped...Never had a blow out at speed so no opinion on that..
I know guys that won't ride unless they have full protective gear, helmet, armored gloves,jacket, pants, boots...

Yes, modern tires, run at maybe 4psi higher pressure than was originally specified, will probably stay on the rim very well.
It's that one time when you haven't ridden in a month and forget to check tire pressures....

Well, this pretty much ended up going nowhere. Mike asked for tips for installing rim locks. KC mentioned a "wood spreader" but without further details. My only contribution was the brand of locks I use. I was interested because I hoped someone would teach me something new.

Honestly for those of us that use them I don't "think" we see them as much trouble but that seems to be the reoccurring theme for not using them. Too much trouble to install so the heck with them.......they're not needed on a road bike anyway.

KC did mention preventing "tire creep" as being one of the benefits of using them. (I didn't) KC and I shared our stories of tires coming off a rim. I'm not sure what caused KC's but mine was because I lost air pressure.

I do believe that if air pressure is maintained, modern tires on our older style rims will stay put. What I was trying to get across is.........there are reasons you can lose air pressure and when and if you do the lock "could" come into play.

Wonder what would happen if Andy launched with 0 pressure in that drag slick? Think he'd try it for us and report back?

So far we didn't help Mike one bit ........You Tube will probably be his best bet which is kinda sad. Maybe the guy he's doing the work for can be talked out of putting them back in?

You guys be safe out there.......stay healthy,

Gordon

I did get some help out of it Gordon. At the very least I know that the new rim locks available are compatible with the older rims I'm dealing with so I don't have the excuse of the old ones being too crappy to use.

MikeG - this video may be helpful to you. I probably watched this 4 or 5 times before attempting to remount my rear Triumph tire (with double rim locks/security bolts). He makes it look so easy since he is a professional but I found it informative - and I was able to get that tire back on with minimal swearing.

Tire change video

Noel

My advice, fit the locks under the rim strip and push them up into the tire upon installation. Tighten the nuts just snug before inflating the tube, then tighten completely once the bead is seated.
I'm satisfied that Triumph, et al, would not have spent the money for the locks unless they thought they were a useful safety feature. I've never had a tire come off the rim, never experienced a sudden deflation, but I suspect that it will happen the day after I discard my rim locks.

This one is a bit painful to watch............................I'll have to admit that I have made some of these same mistakes. But he gets it done.



Gordon

Gordon-years ago I built this as a one time use thing. But it's held together all this time so I'll just keep on with it till it's ready for the wood stove. made from scrap lumber and my B&D workmate bench. I'm willing to bet you already have the work bench, and maybe even access to scrap building materials

A spindle is on my list of things to do. I also lay an old towel or T shirt on it if its a painted rim like on my Suzuki.

Mag Man! Those bead buddys are now on my list as well!

Since this thread is about rim locks I should have said that the Vincent wheel in my previous post has rim locks, but they weren't an issue when I removed the tire. The hard rubber of that ancient tire definitely was an issue, but not the rim locks.

A 30 gallon oil drum works well. Split a length of fuel line and glue it to the rim to protect your spokes if you like. It's especially good for wheels where the axle is a fuss to remove.
And, you can use it for a trash can, or store 5 gallon cans of race gas in it or turn it upside down and it becomes a stool......
I set a trash bucket in the top of mine, and store the race gas inside underneath the bucket.

My point about very high powered road racers and road bikes on modern tyres are that the pressures are approx. 50% higher than tyres used in the 70's so there is no slip betweenrim and tyre. So the chances of a 45 bhp road bike using modern tyres causing tyre slip are highly unlikely assuming the correct pressures are used. That tack must be an exttremely heavy duty variety - ther'se not a mark on it!

When I first got the M 20 back in 91 it was he first rigid girder I had ever owned
So the first port of call was other vintage riders and they told me just about every combination of pressures you could imagine.
Now in those days I rode all day every day and had developed a liking for really hard tyres.
Well that made the bike unrideable above 15mph
So I did what is easy to do without thinking, looked up the 1942 riders hand book & used the recommended pressures.
Well that was interesting and over the next few years I would probably ripped the valve out of at least a dozen or more tubes and that was with rim locks on a 13Hp motorcycle, although the engine breaking was the culprit, not the excessive power at the back wheel.
Finally I gave up and used the recommended pressures from the tyre makers, no where near the 35-40 psi I liked but that was the last valve I ripped out.
So now I run 20-22 front and 2 more in the rear .
On the subject of tyre changing, I use a Breezer tyre tool and have done so since 1982 and never nicked a tube since then.
At one time a fellow clubbie took me home with the wheel in his chair & could not believe his eyes when I had the tyre off tube replaced and cover back on in less than 10 minutes.
He borrowed my Breezer and took it to the CSIRO where he worked and had a few run up, about 4" longer and with a slight bend to make it easier to use ( You know how achademics can just not leave any tool design alone ) .
Now I was sure that I had posted about them before on this forum but I did not find it in my search so here is a link to to a web page with dimensons if you want to make one.
The slightly longer one with a bend allowed the user to lay it flatter and use the wheel axel as a fulcrum point in place of whacking with a mallet.
How to make a breezer

As for the video, there is not a more difficult way to do the job than kneeling on the floor with the wheel sitting on a tyre of the same size.
Note the two real prefessionals had the wheel at waist height with some sort of dummy axel through the hub
A block of 2x4 with a coach bolt through it then clamped in a vice works really well, and while MM's natty little stand will still have you kneeling at least the entire tyre & rim is clean of the ground,
next when you put the tyre lube on the tyre have a think about which bit of the tyre is going to slide over the rim.
That is where the lube needs to be not all over the sidewalls
And FWIW I like to slide the rim inside the inside the tyre all the way round then mount the bead from the outside in not trying to lift the bead over the rim lock from the opposite side which is a pretty sure way of pinching the tube.
So when working this way the tyre lube goes on the edge of the bead and about 1/2" up the inside

That certainly has not been my experience.

What Chris hasn't told us is that he is 6'6" tall, wears size 16 boots, and weighs 390 pounds.....

Lannis

Well FWIW Gordon, back in the day I was told by a tyre shop they came out to solve the problem of phunamatic motorcycle tyre changing machines eating up cast alloy rims.
So they became a standard tool for motorcycle shops till heads designed not to damage the very soft rims on cast wheels became availible for tyre changing machines.
Now as for tyre changine machines, HF make a mini tyre changer.
I bought one for doing 4" rims on mower front wheels ( not particularly successful )
However the machine does have a good bead breaker and can be used clamped in a standard bebch vise , if you want to get up off the floor .
And yes I can see the idea behind the modification to the removal section of the tool.
There was a sign with a quotation attributed to some one I forgot on the wall of Victor Engineering Supply company when I worked there that went something like."No design , simple in principle that can not be made better by making it more complicated in practice."
Their big seller was muffler covers for ships.
Made from brass insertion , asbestos impregnated heavy canvas and stuffed with hot cracked asbestos.
When I think back on some of the places I have worked & some of the jobs I have done I am amazed that I have lived long enough to be posting this .

[quote]The area of the rim where the spoke nipple reside is what is called a Drop Center. If you move the edge of the tire's bead into the drop center the opposite bead is moved almost to the edge of the rim. It is easy from here on.[/quote

We who speak proper English call it the well

This is what the pros were doing with their bellies & elbows in the good videos and why the "classic" mechanic was having such a tough time .
You really can not control the position of the beadin the well with the tyre sitting on another one of the same size .
The only time I find that convienent is when trying to seat a tubeless during inflation.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3028099074...p;mktype=pla&googleloc=9002343&p

I bought one of these years ago for my BMW K100 tires. Worked quite well but not wide enough for my Suzuki tires so I just bought a LARGE C clamp for that instead. That,a set of Ken Tool 18 inch irons I bought for changing the tires on my Model A Ford, along with a pair of Dowidat irons like John pictured have worked pretty well for me in the shop At the risk of cursing myself, I have not had a flat on any of my tubed tires in years and for the tubeless ones I carry a plug kit. I'll carry the small irons and a patch kit on the Brit bikes but on either one the wheels are hard enough to get off on the lift with a jack under it let alone by the side of the road with just the center stand.

Well, we all have differing ways....I use a plastic pill barrel, about 30 gallons, I think. Got it at the used barrel place for a trash can and it works fine. I break the beads with a big c clamp. I use a rim protector for the back side to get the bead off. I use smooth hand cleaner for lube. Dual use, doncha know! I always put some talc inside to help the tube, and inflate to about ten pounds a couple of times to straighten out the tube. I don't know where I got my irons, they're labeled Honda. I've got a drawer full of 17 inch rim strips courtesy of my son in law. They work on 18 inch rims, too.
I tried the workmate idea the other day, and it works very well for me. Gordon, Ive got a spare workmate if you need one!
And I don't have any wheels that use rim locks, but the new Sun rim I got for the BMW has a safety lip for a tubless tire.

This has certainly been an interesting thread so far. I never imagined that something as basic as changing a tire had so many variables and methods of doing it. It's also nice to learn that maybe I've been installing my tubes wrong all these years. I have always taken the inner nut off and just installed the outer one snug to the rim. I think that comes from seeing enough of the original tubes with nothing but a single threaded collar with a knurled edge instead of a hex nut. Live and Learn!

Until I can buy a rim strip with holes pre punched for the rim locks I will put the locks under the rim strip rather than compromise its integrity with additional holes.
From another site: All the "experts" said they do it the way they found them from the factory, which in most cases, if not all, is one nut inside and one nut outside, tightened down on the rim.
Which is what at least 2 Tube companies warn is incorrect, and strongly suggests against it.
The research started narrowing down as I was contacting Tire/Tube companies.
Michelin responded with this comment:

....The conical washer sits over the inner tube valve stem and should follow the contour of the valve so that the convex side sits against the wheel rim when fitting.
Once fitted to the wheel the two lock nuts sit on the valve cap side of the wheel rim. After fitment and inflation to the correct pressure, the two nuts should be backed up towards the valve cap, and locked against each other...

Continental also stated something similar, that the nuts were just used for installation, and were to be backed up to the cap and used as lock nuts.
Several youtube video's by Dunlop show their tire whiz using one nut as a lock nut against the cap (however it shows the 2nd nut on the tube before he puts it in the tire).
Neither company suggested that one of the nuts be placed inside the rim between the rim and the tube.

So what's the answer? Follow the mfgr's advice, or your neighbor's brother in law who's been doing it for 50 years and because he does it that way it must be right?
I do find it amusing that ALL the Honda's on the showroom floor only have 1 nut showing, and its always so tight is gouges the crap out of the new rims :rofl1:
How can all the motorcycle companies be assembling things wrong?
Who do you believe? The company that makes the tubes? or the company that puts tires on their bikes?"

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