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Originally Posted by Brid Caveney
As far as we know, everything went back in/on the crank perfectly normally. We cracked the rocker banjo's with it running this last time, and there is oil there -- but not in any great quantities -- so, it is NOT over oiling the top end.
So - with unrestricted oil flow to the pump, it is getting too much oil into the cases, where it is getting severely aerated. The scavenge pump is an OIL pump - not an AIR pump, and one can only assume it's capabilities are severely 'hampered' by it trying to pump such aerated oil?
Lessen the incoming flow, and it is definitely better - all around.
Kommando -- do you have any 'proof' of those shells being wrongly sized?

Only 2 or 3 posts over the last 2 or 3 years stating they had the journals ground to factory size and then found a loose fit on assembly of con rods to crank, so the recommendation was to fit to rod torqued to spec, measure and grind to the measured size plus clearance or waste a regrind.

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The supplier we used for this job (well known/respected/old established) tell me the end shells were manufactured here in the USA, and that they have not had any issues like we are discussing.
Sure -- if grinding the crank, fitting the shells and torquing is a done deal -- but when just replacing the shells - because the crank was out for sludge trap cleaning, and it measured up Std --- who'd do it? Not us -- and it's hardly the first time we have done so.

As DMadigan points out - it's hard to believe there is a problem in that area, with the oil pressure we have. If we had 'missed' the crank measuring that badly it would be bleeding too much oil from the rod journals -- one would imagine it would be rattling like an bag of old bones -- AND have NO oil pressure.

We do of course have an undersized seal on the timing case, so can definitely rule that out for oil 'leakage'.

So here lies the dilemma, (as by hook or by crook, we have to get this straightened out - and any work is on us) -- what would we even be looking for if we strip it and pull the crank out again?

It'll cost a fair bit to get it ground -- and for what reasons? There is nothing conclusively wrong with it.

According to the minimal flow to the rockers -- we don't suspect any problems there.

The only thing that has made any difference so far, is reducing the flow to the pump. In doing so, the aeration (shown in the clear return line) stops - and the flow is abbreviated at lower revs, and becomes solid with revs -- sort of normal.

We're resigned to replacing the rings, as are pretty sure they are now glazed, and whilst changing them, we'd do a quick glaze bust on the bores.

Even with the restriction, the oil pressure is a very healthy 50psi when hot -- something a fair few folks would like in their engines I bet!!

3 different pumps (2 new 4 valve and the old one) - 2 OPRV's (a new SRM and the old one) and no change in the problem -- frothy oil and far too much of it.
An extension of the sump pick up pipe -- it still leaves 250+cc's in there. The pipe passed vacuum and pressure tests just fine.
It appears that with 250cc's left in the sump, and the restriction - it's the best scenario we've found.
Any more thoughts?
A very frustrated Brid!

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We did have a beaut on a pre-unit, where the oil scavenge pipe was touching the (aftermarket) sump plate to give exactly what you have, but I can't see that happening with the unit configuration!
I know you get good vacuum and pressure test on the scavenge pipe, but could it be blocked somehow?

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The supplier we used for this job (well known/respected/old established) tell me the end shells were manufactured here in the USA, and that they have not had any issues like we are discussing.

So made in the Atlantic plant in Iowa, no issues with those, good quality bearings, used to be part of Clevite, now owned by Mahle.

Maybe a different make of oil, even a 10/40 that would flow easier and so not get so aerated.

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The problem is not a bit of tolerance here and there, these engines are just not supposed to do this!

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i would check the oil pressure relief valves
fit in the case-cavity ... it a known weak area of sealing , usually associated with poor oil pressure
( bottom three or so threads ) below the oil relief cross-drilling .

A poor seal here allows freshly ressurized Inlet oil to bypass around the oprv completely
and dump oil into the oil relief Passage ( normally this is just a lose of oil pressure problem )
... but here it could be contributing to an overflow problem that is foaming the oil ,
( similar to how a barista foams milk for cappuccinos )

The fix is to carefully seal the threads on the deeper side , past the cross-drilling of the oprv cavity
with 222 or 565 ( something anaerobic anyway ) where an excess sealant will wash away .

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quinten - we DON'T have poor oil pressure - anything but.

Kommando - Oil doesn't get aerated with the restrictor in - and who knows, thinner viscosity oil may just make it worse?

We need to backtrack a little here and just remember, this engine was running fine, until it was over revved (by the goon putting the throttle slide in upside down -- I know - don't ask!) As it was already low on compression the decision was taken to rebuild it completely.
NOTHING out of the ordinary was found during the rebuild, and everything that needed replacing was done. It has new main bearings, and the only thing not new was the sludge trap plug - which was cleaned up and sealed with Loctite 609 retaining compound, then peened in there.

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Originally Posted by Brid Caveney
UPDATE!
A complete mess -- very depressing indeed. The pick up pipe extension didn't do a darned thing,......
Well THAT'S discouraging. The longer tube length seemed so promising.

So I'm wondering..... Has the bike been ridden yet, you know, to put it under normal operating conditions?

Another idea, connected to the previous one. Has all the running been done on the lift with the front end cinched down with straps, like in one of your photos?
I only ask thinking that maybe a nose low attitude allows the forward part of the sump to effectively become over full, especially since the longer tube apparently didn't help any, and since the scavenge pickup is toward the rear of the crankcase.

I'm sure you can tell I'm really grasping at straws now but sometimes it's useful to take a step back and look at the big picture for things that might have been overlooked. And, this has been such an uncooperative, odd problem..........

One more thought: Regarding oil pressure and bearing clearance, back in the day when I was rebuilding lots of Triumphs, a fresh motor would almost always get up to 70psi when kicked over with the plugs out. That was the usual pre-start up routine. If your engine can do that, or nearly so since it has been run some, that would give you some indication of how "right" your rod bearing clearances are without going to all the trouble of pulling the whole engine down again.

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Originally Posted by quinten
i would check the oil pressure relief valves
fit in the case-cavity ... it a known weak area of sealing , usually associated with poor oil pressure
( bottom three or so threads ) below the oil relief cross-drilling .

A poor seal here allows freshly ressurized Inlet oil to bypass around the oprv completely
and dump oil into the oil relief Passage ( normally this is just a lose of oil pressure problem )
... but here it could be contributing to an overflow problem that is foaming the oil ,
( similar to how a barista foams milk for cappuccinos )

The fix is to carefully seal the threads on the deeper side , past the cross-drilling of the oprv cavity
with 222 or 565 ( something anaerobic anyway ) where an excess sealant will wash away .
It doesnt matter if the oil goes right past the OPRV, the pump, being a positive displacement type, will deliver the same amount regardless. And the scavenge pump doesn't care where the oil's been, it's capable of pumping more than the feed pump anyway. If of course it's working correctly.

SR

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Normally, a thinner oil will have a lower tendency to foam because air bubbles will rise out of the oil more rapidly (actually less aeration), and foam bubbles will have a thinner oil wall, which will break more easily.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28938/hot-oil-foam

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Originally Posted by Brid Caveney
We have a serious problem with a 1966 T120R 650 Triumph engine we just rebuilt (in a Rickman Metisse).
The frame was rusty inside, and even with a custom made filter (by Dave Madigan) the oil was getting filthy with rust in suspension.

( This could be cured by filling the frame with citric acid solution, this is standard practice when building new lub oil pipework before the first fill and commissioning )
.
Deciding to not try and mess with the OIF feature any longer, the owner had his 'head fab guy' pull the airbox out, and they put an aftermarket Harley chopper tank on it.

(I think this is your problem, frothy oil needs a lage dead volume in the tank to allow the foam to settle, the original frame has this with largwe cooling surface area which also helps. You dont mention the new tank volume or its breathing system)

.
Everyone here is completely miffed by it!

The oil tank is the thing you changed that brought on this problem.


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I agree with Gavin. Before I did any major engine reopening, I would hook up a standard Triumph oil tank and see if that made a difference. Of course at this point, it could be a combination of things: something wonky with the oil tank, a pump issue that was masked by the wonky oil tank, and rings that have glazed as a result of the above.

Ed from NJ

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Originally Posted by Stuart Kirk
....and possibly substitute an original Triumph oil tank into the system instead of that chopper tank you have on it. .....
Originally Posted by gavin eisler
.......The oil tank is the thing you changed that brought on this problem.
Originally Posted by edunham
......Before I did any major engine reopening, I would hook up a standard Triumph oil tank and see if that made a difference........
There's a theme here, maybe worth exploring.

And finding a way to actually ride the thing so operating conditions are nearer to normal. You must have a nearby private road, open field, railroad track or something where it can be ridden.

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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
The oil tank is the thing you changed that brought on this problem.
Agreed. I think that most custom chopper tanks must be fitted with a restriction on the outlet in order to work with the Triumph.


Keep your head up and your stick on the ice.

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Brid, it seems you're running round in circles at this point. I can't remember if I said this before, but routing the returns straight to the tank via a single hose from the engine to the filler neck would take the tank and any T's and restrictions out of the equation. Running the engine for a few minutes without top end lubrication isn't a problem. You can even hook up a plastic bottle to the rocker feed and squeeze some oil in every few minutes. This test would indicate where the problem lies I believe.

This is how I tested the Triton I mentioned in one of the first posts in this thread. In my case it was the restriction in the "T" that was too narrow. Your results may prove something else, but they will prove something.

SR

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" most custom chopper tanks must be fitted with a restriction on the outlet in order to work with the Triumph" - I have never heard of a tank having a restriction on the outlet.

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Stein Roger -- yes, we aren't getting very far - especially when 'new' folks chime in, having not read all that's been said so far, it seems.Folks need to remember - we've already tried 3 different pumps.

Stuart Kirk -- The 'scavenge' is at the lowest point in the cases - not towards the back -- but as this thing is cursed it seems, we'll undo where it is tied down, and give it back that 2 degrees or so it is sitting from perfectly level. Even better, we can put a spirit level on the engine, and make perfectly sure.
As for the oil pressure - I have mentioned several times, it is doing 50psi when hot -- so is kicking it over cold going to prove anything? Seems at 50psi, the rod bearings are NOT the cause of the excess oil - so I think we've almost made the call that we won't be splitting the cases again.

All this talk about the oil tank is put to bed by DMadigan -- the restriction we used is in line down by the engine 'manifold' - nowhere near the tank -- and same with me -- I never heard of anyone putting a restrictor on the tank. We have worked with a couple of Bobbers with aftermarket tanks - that seem fine as they are - no restriction needed!!

We've already tried pinching off the rocker feed with vise grips - and it makes no difference. That should be sufficient testing in that area.

A few years back, we had a 1969 BSA Rocket 3 (A75) that we'd done a 'crank out' renovation of the engine. One of its problems was it somehow getting pressure in the gearbox cavity. Our engineer (world class) coated both the inside of the crankcase and the gearbox cavity 'shared wall', with 'space age' 2 part epoxy paint he uses on Vintage Honda engines, that have a similar problem. Once built, the engine ran absolutely 'perfectly -- but the gearbox pressure problem did not go away. We ended up running a breather line from the filler plug - to the toolbox -- which we'd converted to a plenum, complete with 'oil sorb' cloth to soak up drips. Nobody could explain that issue -- even great Triple 'brains', so we just put it down to one of those things you will just never know.

Synopsis
After everything tried, the only thing that has made any headway is -- with a 30% reduction in the feed line (NOT THE TANK) everything gets pretty much back to normal. The return oil isn't as aerated, and acts normal - spitting at lower revs and solid flow at revs. The (hot) pressure stays good, at 50psi or so - at revs, and doesn't bleed down that much at idle. This is with the 'extension' on the pick-up tube -- yet it still leaves around 250cc's in the sump.
And -- it stops smoking so badly -- clearly not getting as much oil past the rings.

There is oil getting to the rocker banjo nuts, when 'cracked' with the engine running -- so one can only assume it is getting to the arms? No real way of checking without removing the rocker boxes -- which, in the Rickman frame probably means the engine coming out.

We'd like to be a little clearer about the rocker feed, and would gladly run a feed from where we have the pressure gauge tapped in -- if we had a definitive figure on pressure reduction to the feed line. Clearly the reduction needs to be done at the fitting on the engine - and will be easy to do -- if we had a size!!
That way, there would be zero restriction on the return line.

We are definitely resigned to putting new rings in it - and already have a set on hand.

Do we just call the 'issue' an unexplained phenomena - that seems to go away by reducing oil feed to the pump? I know folks may be horrified at the thought of keeping the inline restrictor -- but we have to get through this, and as of this moment, nobody can honestly say what the 'issue' really is!

I don't know any Paranormal Investigators who specialize in matters like these -- but am open to suggestions!!

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Originally Posted by Brid Caveney
......Stuart Kirk -- The 'scavenge' is at the lowest point in the cases - not towards the back -- but as this thing is cursed it seems, we'll undo where it is tied down, and give it back that 2 degrees or so it is sitting from perfectly level.
I understand that the pocket the scavenge tube draws from is the lowest point but it is also toward the rear of the crankcase, hence my thought about the bike not being level in a nose low attitude. And, I still think it should be ridden!

Originally Posted by Brid Caveney
.....As for the oil pressure - I have mentioned several times, it is doing 50psi when hot -- so is kicking it over cold going to prove anything? ........
It's only a suggestion for an easy way to get a read on the situation. You are free to do as you please.

Regarding your 50 psi when "hot", Triumph twins usually run around 70 psi hot (other than idling) and It takes 10-15 minutes of riding at speed to get the typical brit bike's oil up to even 130 degrees. That's hard (impossible?) to accomplish with the bike strapped to a lift. Never mind the glazing it does to your rings.
Originally Posted by Brid Caveney
...... I don't know any Paranormal Investigators who specialize in matters like these -- but am open to suggestions!!
You asked! Just trying to be helpful.

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On the A75, there is a small hole drilled in the upper front of either inner or outer case (I would have to check) under the flange to relieve the pressure in the gearbox.
I know you mentioned a new SRM OPRV but gavin(?) mentioned having a problem with these due to the body and piston both being stainless. This would be more of a problem with the plunger pump than the gear pump since it causes the piston to oscillate from the pressure surges.
As I mentioned, the T140 has a bleed port for the OPRV facing the web of the crank which will throw oil at the piston. That could be the source of the smoking.
You could try taking some oil out from the switch port while it is running to see if it is aerated like the sump oil. That points to the pressure side as the problem which might be the reason restricting the inlet oil line helps.

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Re SRM PRV Wasnt me Dave,I have never had one, although I have gone on about the risks of running Stainless to Stainless, galling etc based on other experience, on the strength of that I would never fit one.I think it was Allan Gill that had encountered SS OPRVs gall first hand.

The OP still hasnt filled in one gap, How does the new oil tank breathe?, if it doesnt have a breather that might explain some of the issues. But , the OP seems happy to restrict the oil feed to the motor, each to his own.

I can imagine a scenario where a new oil tank is fitted with reduced volume and restricted or zero breathing, when the motor runs the tank pressurises restricting return pushing more oil into the motor . Restricting the oil feed to a motor is a terrible idea, bad things will happen, at the very least it will cause pump cavitation. Anyway, I am done with this thread it has shades of B Tours ignition switch.


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Reading through this thread, it looks like you have done everything possible to try and solve the issue, have you tried changing oil manufactures? the reason I ask is I had a really bad smoking issue on my '70 TR6R after I first purchased and changed the oil using Castrol GTX 20w50. Bike didnt smoke before hand but smoked like a freight train after the oil changed. I drained and changed using Valvoline VR1 20w50 and the smoking went away. Maybe the issue is something this simple, worth a shot in my book seeing how you have checked everything else.


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Is the restrictor valve that was in the exhaust tappet oil feed that was only used in 1967 still installed? What tappets were used? The wide groove is for 1967 with restrictor installed.

We always remove the restrictor and block off oil feed on 1967 bikes.

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Hi gavin, sorry, bad memory. He has run it with the cap off the oil tank with the same results so tank breathing is not the problem.
Checking whether the oil is getting frothed before or after the crank might be worthwhile. A clear tube off the pressure port will tell if it is the pump and blocking the OPRV will tell if it is that or oil being sprayed against the crank web.

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Originally Posted by Brid Caveney
Stein Roger -- yes, we aren't getting very far - especially when 'new' folks chime in, having not read all that's been said so far, it seems.Folks need to remember - we've already tried 3 different pumps.

I don't know any Paranormal Investigators who specialize in matters like these -- but am open to suggestions!!
Brid, you say you're open to suggestions, but are you? It's hardly fair to blame the lack of progress on "new folks" chiming in. Also it's slightly unfair to berate people for missing pieces of information in a thread that's now on its 4th page... I assure you, people are only trying to help.
Anyway, I've shared my experiences and suggestions, up to you to use them or discard them, and they may of course be of no value in this scenario, but they were given with the honest purpose of trying to help you out.
I can only give you one last piece of advice, don't ever restrict the feed to the oil pump. It's dangerous and proves nothing.
All this about the OPRV spraying on the crank or whatever makes no sense either.

Best of luck
SR

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https://www.lowbrowcustoms.com/coll...l-tank-for-triumphs-and-british-choppers

The description does mention, "Oil return fitting on bottom is restricted inside the tank the same as stock and has the proper 'T' for feeding oil to your rocker boxes."

I only mentioned it because OP said it got better with restricted flow. Forget I said anything!


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