Britbike forum Forums British Motorcycle specific Brands Triumph bulletin board 1967 Rickman Metisse Woes

Thanks for that Stuart. Looks like the only way to do anything about replacing the tube would have to be done with either the cases apart, or at very minimum the engine laying on its side. Odd how it was working OK, using the OIF - with a worn engine, but wasn't smoking that badly. Maybe it was all worn out sufficiently that it just worked OK? Hehe!! Can you please email the pic of the page - [email protected]
Here's what happened with the test DMadigan suggested, when it blew very aerated oil out of the sump hole, and the return was aerated as soon as it started pumping, after getting enough oil in the jug.

... you could temporarily lengthen the scavenge with 5/8" of tube and a pvc over-sleeve

I'm wondering if Triumph was trying to solve a problem they didn't really have , by shortening the tube .
Tube wasnt too-long from 63 to 68
( they had ignition problems in '67 , originally Mis-diagnosed for most of the year , as,from under oiling the bottom of the Pistons )
and then the shorter tube mod only lasted One year ...before they opened the Breather to include the primary side .
(a fix of a previous fix ) ... anyway here's the service bulletin that complements the reference from "modern motorcycles"
......

Did that cure the oil blowing out the exhaust?

Dave - NO, it didn't - and it seemed it actually happened faster. It was blowing hard out of the sump hole - and seems mostly heavily aerated oil -- what do you think that means?
Stuart/Quinten -- is there anywhere in the Service Bulletin it actually says how much oil should be left in the sump, when the short tube is used?
It'd certainly be nice to know that before we pull it apart to replace the rings. Also - when they talk about more 'severe' oil rings -- what are they referring to? Did they actually make something specific?

[quote=Brid Caveney]
Stuart/Quinten -- is there anywhere in the Service Bulletin it actually says how much oil should be left in the sump, when the short tube is used?
/quote]

From previous posts Long tube 100mml, Short tube 200ml

As I have understood there is a remarkable blowby and a lot of oil being distributed past the piston into the combustion chamber.
These are clear symptoms of piston rings not being seated at all. That happens if the engine has been run but the bike has not been ridden.
If the bike were mine I'd right away throw in fresh rings, and despite the fact that the bike is a desert sled, ride it hard enough in order to get the rings seated, on the road or on the dirt, it does not matter.
There is a lot of info regarding running in in the Britbike forum.
If the problem should continue after getting the rings to do their job, I'd keep on guessing the other possible reasons.

Jouko -- with all respect -- the thing is over oiling and no amount of riding it is going to seal the rings - it would more than likely cause further damage with filling the lower end with oil.

back in the day ( mid-late ) 60s ( pre t140 ) .. i believe all Triumph oil rings ... were the one-piece cast iron oil ring type
( with an oil-goove and oil-slots between the 2 scrapers )

... 3 or 4 piece oil rings , spring loaded , with 2 thinner steel scrapers (really anything with more than one piece )
, are generally acknowledged as being an Improvement . ( work more efficiently , scraping oil and with less frictional loss )
( I would suppose "Modern Mechanics" is referencing any of these types )
( ive never had a problem with the older style , one piece ring ... but not a racer type )

of youre retro fitting multi-piece oils-rings ... you should verify the oil ring-stack " is compatible ", with the oil Groove .
( verify through the vendor and/or by shop measurement ) ...

That's what the Deves rings have, a multi piece oil ring. I mention them only because back in the day I used a set in my B44 and put lots of miles on them. The exhaust pipe was grey inside instead of the usual sooty black. They really controlled oil consumption, at least in that application.

The down side was when after many miles it came apart for the next rebuild. The cylinder had a noticeable bottom ridge worn by the oil ring as well as the usual top ridge so it had to be re-bored. But in your case, in an engine with extra oil sloshing around inside, increased bore wear might not be as much of a concern as the smoking and the oil splattering.

Another option to consider is Total Seal gapless rings. I have used them several times without any issues at all. They do custom rings for just about anything.

Brid- Is that oil aerated? Does it clear after a while? To me it looks like it has emulsified. This is caused by combustion products getting in to the oil from blow by or just from severe damp. I'm sure you will shoot me down in flames! Just an idea.

Dave

Brid, thanks for the comment, I mean it might be a good idea to first rectify the most obvious fault, and see what happens after that.
Like dave j says above the exessive blowby can mix with the oil. This can reduce the capacity of the return side of the pump, causing the wet sumping symptom.

I'm not an engine doctor of any degree, so the above is an idea only.

Quinten - They are one piece 'conventional' style cast iron - JE, same as the pistons -- a matching set.

Stuart - We have had 2 'false starts' in the last couple of years, with Grant 3 piece rings being too tight in the ring groove. They are a PITA to 'stack up' - and once underneath the ring compressor, the first you know of anything wrong is when one of the scrapers pops out before the barrel is down on it completely.
Also, we just rebuilt a 72 Commando (Combat engine - we slightly de-tuned it) and though the Grant rings we used were gapped correctly, the engine was very tight with them -- not really what you want with a fresh build. It has been carefully run in, and is fine now!
We used Deves a couple of times on 500 Tri race engines we built, and found the very critical about getting full ring seat. I discussed it with their Tech lady -- but never did have any success with them, so haven't tried them for 20+ years now!! It maybe time!!

dave j - If you read the whole thread - you'll see that - yes, it is aerated. It is 'over oiling' and causing the crank to 'froth' it up.No water involved.

Jouko - It's a bit like the chicken & egg situation here. We are somewhat resigned to having to put new rings in it -- but are trying to address the cause of the problem (too much oil in the cases) before pulling the top off to re-ring it.

STOP PRESS!!! In a last ditch effort to get things straightened up - we know the pickup tube is short (must have been shortened by someone reading the Factory Bulletin) but to 'operate' on replacing it, the engine really has to be out of the bike, SO we decided to roll the dice a bit. Knowing there was too much oil staying in the cases - why not reduce the amount being fed to the pump?????? We made up a brass connector, with one side reduced by around 30% and installed that in the feed line. Also figuring there would be less 'churning' if there was more air escaping, we put yet another 5/16" I/D breather nipple - in the tach drive hole. Now we have the stock timed breather, 'extra's' in both the timing plug and tach drive apertures and one rocker cap off both in & ex rocker boxes. Maybe a bit of a gamble -- but at this stage - we'll give most anything a try (thinking outside the box!!)
On firing her up, the smoking was still bad, but after getting a little warmer, and some sharp 'raps' on the throttle, the return line oil started to act more normally - and the smoke started reducing. The carb needed a little tuning, so I shut her off whilst grabbing a screwdriver - and once fired up again - with the mixture now set, she started to sound better and better. It was getting late - so I just shut her off, and locked the door.
Today we'll really see how things are -- capacity of sump, a compression check -- and if all is good there, the head re-torqued (copper gasket, painted with Copper Kote) which it shouldn't need, but hey -- the tappets are only 2 & 4, so better being safe than sorry) tappets re-set, ignition timing checked, chaincase on -- and tell the customer to go and ride it. Alternately -- we may just go ahead and pull the engine out, and put new rings in it -- and whilst out - address the short oil pick up pipe.
More to follow!!

A one way reed valve in a breather pipe would reduce air movement once the initial pressure had escaped, if you have a piece of tube that fits tightly over the sump tube you can extend its length to long type temporarily. Needs must, especially as its working, but restricting the oil feed needs to be back to normal ASAP.

Glad to hear what sounds like progress, but I wouldn't be very comfortable leaving any restriction in the oil feed line myself.

But for trouble shooting purposes you could fashion an oil pick up tube extension out of thin wall brass hobby tubing and loctite it onto the existing tube. Make sure the sump screen fits over it ok. Then go ride the thing to try and bed in the rings. Race gas, cheap oil and a few short strong pulls up a sand wash might just do it.

But if you wish, the service bulletin seems to indicate the tube modifying process can be done in the frame provided the engine is warm. Your call on that of course.

Unfortunately I do not have the knowledge to contribute to this thread, but I am totally engrossed in it and await a positive resolution

jimmymckenna - Glad you are getting some light relief from all the techno babble going on here!!

PROGRESS!
Today we drained 250cc's from the sump -- a tad more than we'd really like to see, so we decided to 'undo' the feed line restriction, and machined up an extension for the pick up pipe. We tried rubber tubing -- nah, then rubber tubing with a piece of 1/4" steel brake line in it - but that wasn't feeling positive enough. Rooting around, we found an aluminium coupling nut just over an inch long, and ideal hex size. We bored it for pipe I/D, 0.214, then counterbored it to 0.297" with a positive shoulder for pipe O/D 0.302" - giving it an 0.005" tolerance fit. It drifted on the pipe nicely - and gave a nice 'thunk' as it hit the shoulder. According to 'legend' we lengthened it 5/8", and should now be back to 'stock' figures. All the breather lines are now final fixed and routed, and tomorrow we'll fire her up and see how she likes the new set up!!
Stay Tuned!

Very interesting topic! Keep up the intelligent work!

UPDATE!
A complete mess -- very depressing indeed. The pick up pipe extension didn't do a darned thing, and after it running like the smoke machine from hell - it again had 250cc+ in the sump.
We put the restrictor back in the line, and it ran appreciably better -- not much smoke, and the return line oil was doing just what it should-spitting at lower revs, and flowing at higher ones. The pressure stayed around 50psi, even when the engine got rather hot.
After talking to one of our main suppliers, they have new pick up E4538 tubes - and measured one for me. They are 1-13/16" long -- the exact length we have -- but if you had the new one installed, we agreed there is quite probably a good 1/2" bearing in the case -- so they would only measure 1-5/16" .
The part number is from 68 on -- they don't even show one for the 66 engine - so we imagine the pipe on this engine is standard.
Back to the drawing board --- again.
I talked to our crank grinder, and we had a communal thought, that though the crank miked up Std, we did NOT install the shells in the rods, and measure the eye I/D like we would if the crank was getting ground. Though I'm sure the shells we got are good quality -- perhaps they aren't deadly accurate to what the Factory journal size is??????????????
Is it still possible that all these problems are from too much oil 'loss' from the end journals?

For the oil loss to be significant from the journals, the engine would sound like a bag of hammers. It still seems like scavenged oil is being pumped back into the engine, though for the life of me I can't see how, it would mean a huge amount of oil being flowed back through the rocker boxes.

Maybe a way out or stupid question/theory - is the sludge trap centre bolt fitted/sealing , ditto with sludge trap plug ?

Scavenge can take care of any of these “leaks” in anything like normal circumstances.

There are issues with Wassell/Hepolite branded shells, at least one Triumph 650/750 batch is 0.5 thou undersize on shell thickness which on a journal within spec will result in 1 thou extra clearance before you start the engine ie worn out.

As far as we know, everything went back in/on the crank perfectly normally. We cracked the rocker banjo's with it running this last time, and there is oil there -- but not in any great quantities -- so, it is NOT over oiling the top end.
So - with unrestricted oil flow to the pump, it is getting too much oil into the cases, where it is getting severely aerated. The scavenge pump is an OIL pump - not an AIR pump, and one can only assume it's capabilities are severely 'hampered' by it trying to pump such aerated oil?
Lessen the incoming flow, and it is definitely better - all around.
Kommando -- do you have any 'proof' of those shells being wrongly sized?

Plastigage would tell you if the shell clearance is correct. Unfortunately requires dismantling the engine.
Since having the sump plug out did not change the oil in the exhaust, the frothing of the oil by the sump being too full is not the cause of that, And since you were still getting frothed oil out the sump hole it is not the crank churning oil in the sump that is causing the frothing. I have never run an engine without the sump plate/plug out so cannot say if that is normal.
I would expect the air to blow harder out the open sump plug than the timing hole because the crank is blocking the timing hole.
You tried putting your finger over the pickup tube whilst turning the engine over to check for suction, Try putting your finger over the return pipe (before the rocker feed) to see if you get pressure, then no suction? Just to be sure the oil is not oscillating in the return line.
At this point it is probably more time effective to pull the engine apart and check things. Oil out the exhaust is either a ring problem or valve/guide/crack problem.
*Hard to imagine the shells are too thin if you are getting good oil pressure.

I too used to use Castrol 20w50. Had occasional problems with foaming and a milky white froth and fresh oil looked very dirty with one trip through the engine.Switched to this;
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Valvoline-20W50-4-Stroke-Motorcycle-Oil/16879750

Problems went away. I've lost track of how many years ago I switched. I don't think it will cure your problems. This whole converation is way beyond my scope of knowledge.