Britbike forum Forums British Motorcycle specific Brands Triumph bulletin board 1967 Rickman Metisse Woes

Here's the bike -
https://images2.imgbox.com/bd/79/IvFH34y6_o.jpg

And a couple more -
[/URL]

Have you checked the breather is exhausting when the pistons are on the down stroke? It seems as though when the pistons rise they are sucking the oil back into the sump.
Have you looked into the right hand cylinder for oil getting on top of the piston?

Dave - I just put a camera in the RH pot, and there is oil in the valve pockets. I mentioned we converted the timing plug hole to another breather

That is 5/16" I/D - shouldn't that negate the stock breather?

LATEST UPDATE -- Fitted a minus 0.020" seal in the timing case, and with the sump drained, she fired first kick and oil pressure went immediately to 65psi.
Once the oil showed in the clear line, it was looking completely normal - bigger bubbles and pulsing -- THEN it started looking cloudy, and it wasn't many seconds before it started blowing the black cr%p from the RH exhaust manifold. A sump drain shows over 300cc's.
There is a lot of pressure blowing from the new breather.
The engine sounds good -- even when blowing the smoke -- where do we go from here? The only place it could now be is the crank (???) -- which is Std, and just got the sludge trap cleaned up, journals polished and new shells and main bearings This is crazy!!

Try taking off that four valve pump.

desco --- as per thread - we already tried the old pump -- same results

That's kinda doubtful. I say that because you seem to have good oil pressure and frankly, as others have pointed out, the scavenge side of the pump should easily suck up and return everything the feed side delivers to the crank whether if actually goes to the crank or gets dumped out via the pressure relief valve. That's why a typical scavenge pump has 1-1/2 to 2 times the capacity of the feed pump.

It sounds like the scavenge pump, for whatever reason, is simply not keeping up and the only good reason, in my mind at least, is a restriction somewhere, probably between the pump and the sump screen. I'm assuming you know how to test a triumph oil pump. If the restriction was in the return line or tank, the resulting high pressure would probably just blow the line off.

Rather than just throwing parts at it, I would want to re-verify that all return oilways are absolutely clear and possibly substitute an original Triumph oil tank into the system instead of that chopper tank you have on it. I personally always run a drill bit or gun brush down all oilways if possible when an engine is down for rebuilding.

Other items to check.

The sump inlet can get loose in the case and air be sucked or the case around it crack again allowing air to the sucked instead of oil.

Have you changed the sump filter, new ones can be too high not leaving enough room for oil to be picked up. Check the gauze, if its a pattern one it can be too fine and oil not flow through it. Even changing the washer on the old one can raise it too high.

You might have two problems. You mention oil in the valve pockets so oil is getting to the top of the piston. If it is not coming past the rings then there must be something wrong with the guides or a crack. You could take the carb and pipe off and check the backside of the valves for oil.
The oil initially had bubbles then looked cloudy. That seems to indicate the bubbles were being broken up into very small ones. If you capture some the cloudy oil does it clear out?
If the inlet were loose or cracked and the pump was pulling air I think the oil would have more bubbles, not tiny ones making it cloudy.
The cloudy oil indicates the bubbles are being broken up into very small ones. Try taking the strainer off the pickup tube and see if you still get cloudy oil.
Even if the oil were bypassing the crank through the OPRV, the greater capacity of the return should keep up.
You could run the engine and when the oil starts to look cloudy, clamp off the rocker feed and see if the bubbles return.
Maybe take the strainer off and put your finger over the pickup whist someone turns the engine over. See if the vacuum is held when the pump is at the top of its stroke.

1/ Stuart - we are scrupulous about oil ways being cleaned thoroughly, and have a full sized solvent tank in the shop -- that gets plenty of use.
Yes - I'm in agreement that it appears the scavenge side isn't keeping up -- possibly because it's trying to pump aerated oil?
Remember - we've tried 3 pumps on it -- 2 brand new LF Harris 4 valve, and the stock one that came off the engine - and yes, we know how to test a Triumph pump. The one that is on it (LF Harris) was tested before being put back on yesterday. Also please remember, after blowing compressed air through the sump pick up line (both directions) we also did a vacuum test on it -- which showed no leakage. Also please remember, this is a Rickman OIF frame, and as such - never 'catered' for an 'auxiliary' tank. We will however, reduce the feed line outlet to that of the inlet 'manifold' on the engine -- and all should be just the same as a stock tank -- at least on the delivery side. BTW -- it was none of my doing choosing the chopper tank - it was the owners head fab guy.

2/ Kommando - please read above about testing the line. We are assuming it is the stock sump plug/gauze, but just in case have removed the gauze, and added an extra crush washer. Blowing air from the pump side says the drain plug is not blocking any flow.

3/ DMadigan - We've not collected any of the 'aerated' oil separately -- but as we have a clear line from the rocker feed Tee to the tank -- the oil in the line clears up after a while, and looks normal. As above - please note the tests to 'inlet' system, which are conclusive, however - I'll need an assistant to turn the engine until the pump is at 'tdc' (Hehe!) on the scavenge side, whilst someone has their finger stuck in the dike (Where's Hans when you need him?). We removed the gauze completely, and cleaned up the inside of the plug on the lathe.
I'm assuming the small bubbles are being caused by the crank bashing around in too much oil?? Pulled one of the inlet rocker caps off, and along with the exhaust side - it looks pretty dry in there. We're already resigned to pulling the top end and putting a new set of rings in -- but clearly need to get to the bottom of the oiling snafu before that - figuring the oil is definitely coming from down below.
So -- we'll give it a try minus the plug gauze, and the feed pipe from the tank mirroring the stock tank size.

Does the new breather in the timing hole have a one-way valve? Maybe take out the valve and see if there is too much vacuum in the cases. I do not know if it is possible to time the suction of the return pump with the pistons dropping.

Dave -- No one way valve - just wide open.
Here's the results of removing the sump gauze, and putting fresh 20w50 oil in it. Same old story -- fires right up, and runs fine -- oil starts 'perking' up the clear return line, then it starts smoking, oil gets aerated, and when it is spitting out of the exhaust manifold joint -- time to shut down. I didn't check the sump contents -- but not expecting any difference.

HANG ON!! - I forgot to mention up front -- one of the main reasons for getting into this job (rebuilding the engine) was because the owner had quite idiotically somehow put the throttle slide in upside down (I kid you not) and started it. He says it didn't over-rev for long -- but I really don't believe him.
Is there any possibility there is a fracture somewhere on the crank, and pressurized oil is squirting through it -- aerating it and overpowering the pump?
Maybe stretching my imagination? To be honest -- I really don't know where to go next --??????????????

HELP PLEASE!!
Is there any recognized oil pressure test for the crank -- that can be done statically?

Not recognized but if you have a regulated air supply and graduated cylinder you could fit a hose to the end of the crank from the cylinder, pressurize the cylinder with air and time the oil drop. From the volume of the feed side of the pump, the bearing dimensions and clearance, oil viscosity at temperature and pressure you could calculate the theoretical oil flow and compare to the measured.
You would have to have the crank magnafluxed for cracks.
Another possibility for aeration is the OPRV. The relief drillings has one into the timing chest and one into the case aimed at the side of the crank web. The oil against the web would be thrown up to the piston and churned by the crank.
Note: the OPRV relief holes are from looking at a T140 case. The T120 might be different.

Do you suppose that back in the day this 1966 engine got the pick up tube mod? It was a triumph service bulletin to reduce cam wear in '67-68 and possibly earlier engines. It raised the crankcase oil level to where the flywheel just dipped in it and splashed more oil on the cams. The modded tube should be about 1-13/16" long according to Nicholson. I'll take a photo of the page and post it tomorrow.

If that's the case, you may actually have a glazed ring problem by now, what with all the idling and running it without load. Maybe time for a Deves ring set with a really aggressive oil ring.

A sticking plaster fix for foaming in oil is to add silicone oil as an anti foaming additive. The issue will be hidden not cured and will return when the silicone oil is used up but if it get the bike running long enough for the rings to properly bed in then if that is the issue then you should be able to go additive free.

Holy cow DMadigan -- I'm not sure I can get Pythagoras to come and do the sums on that! I was thinking maybe someone had actually come up with an apparatus for pumping oil into the crank under pressure -- and there was a 'simple' figure of 'X' psi - being a 'normal' flow, with new big ends and a Std crank.
Guess not.

Stuart -- I can measure the pipe and see what we have. I'm sure the rings are goosed, and already have a replacement set -- not Deves though.

kommando - Pretty sure the rings aren't seated because they were oil flooded first time it ran -- and we need to get to the root of this over oiling/reduced scavenge capacity, before addressing that. It's a customer job, so -- no sticking plasters, as it would only come back to bite me on the arse.

Was not at my work computer. Using the Machinery Handbook calculations for journal bearings I put in the following:
Journal Diameter - 1.624"
Journal Width - 0.95"
Hole oiling
Horsepower - 0.1
RPM - 100
Stroke - 82mm
Clearance - 0.0015"
Oil Temperature - 70F
Viscosity - SAE40
Oil Pressure - 10 PSI
Result oil flow - 0.0060322 in^3/sec, 5.931 cc/min
Equations blow up if the RPM is too low.
If the bearing clearance were 0.001" the flow would be 3.309 cc/min
At 0.002" clearance the flow is 9.262 cc/min
I do not believe oil escaping from a crack in the crank would cause the frothing, the leak would be no different than the oil coming out from around the bearing shells.
It might be a pain to set up but you could put a catch pan under the open sump with a clear plastic tube into oil in the pan. With the motor running you would see how frothed the oil is. If the froth is minimal then the crank is probably frothing the oil from sitting too high in the sump.
If the exhaust does not blow oil then you know that problem is from oil in the cases.

Stuart -- The tube is exactly 1-13/16" long.

Dave -- After last night's test with no gauze on the sump plug, the sump had over 250cc's. Thanks for doing the sums -- but it seems there are far too many variables in the equations to make sense of setting any test equipment up
Excellent idea for a test indeed -- I'll do it and report back!!

Oil pick up tube loose in crankcase so it is picking up an amount of oil but mainly air?

In a previous post it was mentioned that you had vacuum tested the scavenge tube .
How complete was this test ?

Triumph wet sumping service bulletins ... recommend testing the scavenge
pump vacuum at high idle ( engine must be run with sump open )

a good pump and plumbing , at high idle , will pull 18~26 inches .
and then hold this vacuum for a short time when engine is shut down

Tridentman - we've already ascertained the tube is not loose -- both by trying to move it with pliers - and then it passed a vacuum test.

Quinten - it was done by plugging the oil holes on the case, and connecting a vacuum pump to the pick up tube. It held 25 inches for long enough it was clear the tube's seal wasn't in question. What you're referring to is of course a dynamic check, with a gauge on the pick up tube -- which is yet another test we can set up. First, it's DMadigan's test - with the pick up tube in a 'ratio-rite' cup, and sump open - and see what that shows.

Sounds like your engine has had the semi-wet sump modification done to it. That's probably why you have extra oil in the sump. That also suggests that there isn't a scavenge problem, subject to verification of course.

Here's the page from my Nicholson's book. He mentions oil consumption as a potential problem with this mod and suggested a more aggressive oil control ring.