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I’ll take one tomorrow. I bought a new one and it’s the correct type.
I’ll post pics tomorrow

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The new switch is in the bike. Old one is on the bench.

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Old switch

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In 66, there were two "tall tower" switches, one for conventional coil ignition and one for ET. Both had a hard bakelite button like that on your new switch, however one button was brown and the other black (I don't recall which is which). They were not interchangeable. Neither had the soft rubber button, which your picture of the old switch appears to show.

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ET is black, normal ignition is brown.


1966 Triumph T120TT project
1967 Triumph TR6C
1972 Triumph TR6R
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yes ,
The original black button ET switch ... was just a momentary contact switch
that can connect the 2 stator/to-coil wires... to each other ( not to ground )
and when pushed ... holds the AC stator output "shunted"
In a low voltage current Loop
Thereby overriding any action at either set of points ( hold until engine dies )
[Linked Image from accessnorton.com]

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Thanks Steve,
That matches my research and the new black button is correct for ET ignition. The ET cut-out switch is normally open. The old switch was normally closed.
The bike ran with incorrect switch, but one cylinder cut-out at higher than idle. Also, with the incorrect old switch, I couldn’t kill the engine, but it seemed to kill one of the cylinders. Too late now, but I’m wondering if the switch was the problem the whole time. No worries, I decided to rebuild the carbs (no change) and go through the ignition system. I’m using the Honda coils recommended earlier since my original ET coils were showing 11k ohms rather than the quoted spec of 5.5k ohms. I’ll save the originals.
I might have enough time tomorrow to get it all back together and test it out.
Thanks !
Regards,
Bill

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Wouldn't that be something, if the switch was the cause of your problems... hope it was so!

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I am looking for advice on a bike that is not British, but has what is essentially an ET system. My Parilla Wildcat has a low tension magneto. It is basically the same as the ET system used on Triumphs and BSA's, except that it has the magnets in a flywheel that spin outside of the coils instead of being in a rotor spinning inside of the coils. Additionally, the Wildcat has a manual advance. Here is my issue which I am seeking collective advice on: With the timing carefully set at full advance as per the specs, the bike starts up and runs pretty nicely with the advance lever retarded about 1/4 to 1/3. If I then advance it to full advance, the engine quits.
Of possible relevance is that the bike was built up from a basket with all of the manual advance bits missing, which I had to locate. I have new points in it, but I am barely able to get the timing correct with them on the maximum adjustment. The points cam is driven by a shaft off the oil pump. I think the position of the cam can be adjusted by locating the shaft in a different slot on the end of the pump (going by recollection, it has been a few years since I put the motor together). It is a PIA, however, because it is behind the timing case and lots of stuff has to be stripped to get at it.
My present theory is that when I put it together, I put the points cam shaft in the wrong slot, which means the the points cam is not where it should be (roughly 45 degrees past where it should be). I suspect that means that when I advance the ignition (52 degrees at full advance (Yes, I know that is a boatload of advance, but that is what Parilla called for)), it is too far beyond the point of maximum spark. Any thoughts?

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Originally Posted by edunham
the bike starts up and runs pretty nicely with the advance lever retarded about 1/4 to 1/3. If I then advance it to full advance, the engine quits
The way these ignitions work (i.e. ET as well as a "flywheel magneto"), the points must open when the voltage is high, i.e. when the magnetic field from the rotor is inducing the largest possible current in the stator. This means there's a rather abrupt transition between generating enough voltage for the spark plug, and not. Since the rotor must be at the correct location with respect to the stator when the points open, and the rotor is rigidly connected to the crankshaft, it's not just a matter of moving the points on their cam.

The slot in the rotor in my BSA C15S had been cut in the wrong location, resulting in me having to broach a new slot. However, before doing that the bike would start and idle fine, but it would abruptly cut out when the revs increased beyond a certain amount (it had an auto advance unit).

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I have a question about the 5 wire ET stator in my ‘67 TT Bonneville. The Triumph shop manual only has this wiring diagram in relation to the ET ignition bikes.
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

This configuration has the brown lead common to the ignition coils. I took some resistance readings on my stator and received the following results;
Measurements taken with Fluke 87 DMM, resistance of shorted leads =0.1 ohms.
Blk/W to Blk/Y = 4.7 ohms
Brn to Blk/W = Open ckt
Brn to Blk/Y = Open ckt
Brn to Red = 0.6 ohms
Brn/Blu to Red = 0.6 ohms
Brn yo Brn/Blu = 1.2 ohms
Obviously I have one of the alternative stators in which the lighting coils are separate from the ignition coils and is wired similarly to this configuration. However, seeing as the resistance is equal from Brn and Brn/ Blu to Red, it doesn’t seem as though the Brn/Blu has two coils and the Brn just one but I don’t know.
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

My stator has the part# 47197B as shown
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

I have not been able to find this stator number in any of the Lucas parts books that I have seen online. I see a stator with # 47197A but not “B”. If anyone has any information or can shed some light on this stator please let me know. Thanks.

Last edited by Emlupi; 11/20/22 11:52 pm.
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The literature indicates
date of manufacturer 11/69 and # 47197 is the later, preferred style stator ,
where the brake light filament ... is not run off the ignition coils .
(11/69 also means fitted after original manufacturer )
and
47188 is the earlier Style , not encapsulated ... where brake light filament... is center tapped
off of the stator ignition coils
( this style ... can cause the brake light , or a short in the brake light , to act as an ignition Kill )

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Thanks for that info, quinten. Any chance of seeing a wiring diagram for this stator?

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I'm pretty sure the second , or lower illustration that you posted , is whats inside ....
see pdf link below
67 service bulletins pertaining to ET stators and some other 1967 stuff

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Excellent, yes there is a schematic in the bulletin that depicts the 47197 stator. Very informative, thank you.

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Minor update on my progress. The original ET coils were in typical shape and each read around 11k Ohms on the HT side. I bought the small coils made in India and later I bought a pair of the “Honda” coils. The small “India” coils (from memory) measured around 7.5k Ohms. The “Honda” match the ET spec of 5.5k Ohms. I decided to use the “Honda” coils since they are nearly a duplicate of the ET spec and I perceive the quality to be better. Since the Lucas condensers are an integral part of the points mechanism I will stick with them and bought a new pair. Since I won’t be using the “Honda” condensers I removed them from the coils and terminated the lead. I’m assuming this is okay. Sorry for the lousy pic, but here are all three coil types.

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Originally Posted by wbcor
Since I won’t be using the “Honda” condensers I removed them from the coils and terminated the lead. I’m assuming this is okay.
This is almost what I did for my Triumph 500, although with a Panasonic capacitor across each coil where the Honda condensers had been, and nothing inside the points housing. The bike runs great.

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Wbcor, is there a reason why you are replacing the Honda condensers? Are they not of the correct value for use on the Triumph or are you just more comfortable with the Lucas parts? Please let us know how it works out for you.
MM, which Panasonic condenser did you install? I will probably end up making the same modifications to my ET ignition as I plan to keep the 6CA contact breaker unit that is currently on the bike and locate the condensers at the coil. Thanks for any advice you can provide.

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Originally Posted by Emlupi
which Panasonic condenser did you install?
The link in my previous post takes you to a page that describes a replacement for the Panasonic condensers I use, and why I use them, and an earlier post in that thread details the tests I conducted to arrive at those condensers. The one attached to the "Honda" coil is of a type that has a finite lifetime, so best to replace it with one that will live forever before it fails.

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Hi Emlupi.
Two reasons I’m sticking with condensers in the points assembly:
1) the condensers are part of the mechanical assembly. The spring side of the points anchors at the condenser along with the electrical lead. The end of the condenser is a threaded stud. I’ll follow up with a picture.
2) I’m trying to maintain as much originality as possible. Once I have it running strong I may go back to the original 3ET coils and se how it runs. The original coils measure 11k Ohms vs. their spec of 5.5k Ohms so I assume that’s a sign of degradation. We’ll see.
I have a sneaking suspicion this was all caused by an incorrect cut-out switch, but worth going through everything for reliability sakes.
Regards,
Bill

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Here is my points plate with what looks to be one original condenser and one replacement. It’s tight in there and the replacement condensers are one or two millimeters longer than the originals. I’m replacing both with new Lucas condensers. Hopefully I’ll get the ignition timed today and test her out. I did pull and inspect the advance unit and it’s the correct 5 degrees. I’!l need to keep in mind that I selected the “R” position on the rotor since the other two were highly suspect (see earlier posts).
You can see how the condensers are part of the mechanicals.

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4CA Condensers have brackets to hold an oiling Felt , dont forget to add them .
and it looks like the left spring , connected to the longer , new condenser is "grounding out" . ( could just be the pic angle ? )
( not much room in there ) ... if any part of spring , nut , condenser stud , or points wire
" grounds out" , the spark on this side is killed .
(maybe add an insulating shim cut from something like a milk carton behind the spring )

I once made up ' a dummy condenser ' for a 4CA plate
( removed the capacitor roll from inside
and filled an old condenser with epoxy ) ( retaining the necessary stud mount , now insulated from ground by epoxy fill )
with these , I could use ... any of many types of condensers... remotely mounted up by at the coil
( condenser is changeable in minutes )... without messing with the points Gap .
( i used a common " orange drop" capacitor ) 0.22uf , 600volt

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Thanks Quinten.
One felt is there and one is missing in the original configuration. I bought new points and new condensers, but neither came with the felt. I searched high and low and finally found a decent felt material at a fabric store. My present frustration is that now with two new condensers I don’t have any clearance at all. It’s frustrating when a reproduction part is “almost” correct. Why not just actually correct? I’m stuck an the moment, but it’s back to may real job for the week so I’ll just ruminate. I’d really like to keep it all original and conquer the ET ignition.

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The new manufactured Lucas condensers are identical to the Daiichi version, probably just repackaged parts; you’ll likely have the same problem. Swapping to the later 6ca points plate is the better solution in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by wbcor
2) I’m trying to maintain as much originality as possible.
That's certainly a valid concern, and is typically my goal as well. However, electrical components pose a particular challenge. Finding original 3ET coils whose epoxy hasn't cracked from old age, and that are still electrically functional, may not be impossible, but it probably is. Which means, either giving up on strictly original appearance, or spending the considerable time that would be needed to manufacture replacements.

The type of condenser used on the points plate, and at the location of the original 3ET coils, have lifetimes measured in years, not decades. Forty+ years ago cars used that type of condenser as well and, when they did, replacing the points and condenser was considered part of routine annual maintenance. How many miles doesn't determine how long one of these condensers lasts, how many years does, even if all those years were spent collecting dust on a dealer's shelf.

As already noted, the later points plate doesn't also use the condensers to perform a mechanical function, so switching plates allows eliminating the condensers entirely from that location. Having just a single condenser located at each coil is all that is needed, and that condenser can be of an appropriate modern type that will last forever. For what it's worth, this is the approach I used with both my Triumph 500 and BSA C15S, each also with Honda coils altered by replacing their riveted "old-type" condensers with modern ones.

If you want to keep your current points plate, quinten previously posted a solution involving filling the case of original Lucas condensers with epoxy. A variation of that is to make your own dummy condensers from a hard plastic like Delrin.

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