Britbike forum Forums British Motorcycle specific Brands Triumph bulletin board First Time Owner Of A British Bike (1967)

Edit: I took the pictures off drive and added them directly people shouldn't have an issue seeing them now.

Hello my name is Jonathan and I own a 1967 T120R and I have a couple of quick questions about maintenance that my book doesn't cover all that well.

My bike


Is the top screw where I fill the gear oil?


And is this the drain screw for the gearbox?


Here are the oils I was told/given to use for the bike. From left to right(90gear oil for gearbox / SAE 30 for primary / VR1 50 for oil bag/engine)


Thanks, Jonathan

I don't believe those images
on your Google Drive are open to the public

First good luck.
Second go buy a GENUINE Triumph shop manual and a parts manual. Between the two they a good read and you can figure out a lot of stuff on your own. Remember these books are 55 years old now and a lot has changed but, the mechanical is still the same.
Forget that oil recommendation. The primary and the engine share the same oil. I have been using Valvoline 20w50 4 stroke M/C oil for a good many years now. It's also better for the clutch.
Now for the best advice;
You need three things to own a Triumph
1) Plenty of patience/time.
2) Mechanical aptitude.
3) Money.
If you are short on any one thing you better have plenty of the other two.

Listen to Desco!

Thanks for the replys. I do have a genuine shop manual and parts book I thought I'll post some pictures of them when I get home. On the clutch or gear box page it says there is a cap on the outside of the cover allows you to fill it with gear oil. As you can see from the pictures mine doesn't have the cover. And if you look at vintage photos of 1967 t120r those dont either, which is why i am confused where the oil goes for the gear box. My primary and engine oil are separate on this 1967 I thought due to the fact that in my book it recommends running sae 20 in primary and 50 in the engine (I'll have to check when i get home).

//Jonathan

What book are you checking? Sorry 67 does not share oil. Ah the joy of getting old. ATF in the primary.

Hi Dauntless, The shop manuals tend to cover several years. Until you become familiar with the changes year to year, it's very confusing. Shop manuals were written for experienced dealership mechanics. All these differences were passed down word of mouth to new hires.

Triumph made many changes year to year, even many mid season changes. Some well documented, many not well documented, but are known by experienced owners in BritBike group.
'67 would be considered the last year of the "early" unit motors. No provision for strobe timing. So setting timing takes a bit more skill. Clutch cable changing is harder as there is no access hole to cable end in trans cover.

'68 was a transition year where many changes were made. By '69 these changes were mostly completed. Primary cover with timing marks for easy strobe timing. Improved push rod tube sealing.

'70 got different crank case breather system. Primary now shares oil with motor crank case. This motor ran through '72 with various minor changes until Triumph morphed it into "short rod" 750. Got various reinforcements & a 5 speed.

So it's going to take some time & study. The motors sort of all look the same, but there are many non interchangeable parts from year to year. So you may need to change other parts to make a non '67 part fit. Not a big deal, just so you are aware of this stuff.

Here's a link to parts books.


http://vintagebikemagazine.com/links/parts-books/

Keep in mind Triumph changed thread system from British threads to Unified threads. We'll know them as American threads. Most SAE fine thread. So the exact same casting from '67 to 68 or 69 will have different threads... The threads are close visually so a thread pitch gauge is helpful. NEVER EVER force a thread. If it doesn't go, figure out why. Is thread bent or is it different thread. Screw heads are often pozidrive with 4 tiny hash marks between slots. Google it. Philips doesn't fit right. You'll need "Whitworth" socket & wrench set. A few American sizes fit, but most don't, nor will metric.

For motor use any brand motorcycle oil you want. Higher the zinc the better. Most car oils have low zinc & friction modifiers. Zinc tends to greatly reduce cam wear. Most car motor oils makes clutches slip. So no 20w car oil in primary.

In primary use ATF-F. It gives good friction, good chain lube & reduces clutch slippage. Dexron works ok also. But doesn't give as much grip. ATF-F is getting harder to find. Orielly's Auto parts by me Pleasant Hill, CA stocks it in house brand. I've used it several times. Works good. If you think grip is too hard or notchy, try Dexron II or III. It'll calm it down. Personally I think the F is better long term as it reduces slipping. Use level check plug on primary cover per shop manual to set level.

Trans oil was 50w. Now it's better to use 80-90w gear oil like cars put in differential. However.... It must be non ferrous metals compatible. Some GL5 fluids will erode our bronze bushings inside the gears. Stay Lube 85w-90 gear oil is what I use. A bit harder to find. Advance Auto Parts stocks it near me. Some other private label parts houses stock it also. Drain trans. Fill with 500cc through plug on top of trans.

The cheap Gerber plastic baby bottles at Target or grocery stores were perfect for measuring oil. They are marked in both oz & cc.

You may find owners handbook very helpful. Buy repro or original if you don't have one. I don't have link to '67 manual.
Don

Hi these are the books that I was recommended to get for general maintenance and parts.



I know about the BSW wrenches and bolts/nuts. I had to replace some of the fender bolts along with carb stuff but that's just basic issues nothing like trying to fix the bazillion oil leaks I have coming from both the primary/gearbox/engine drain plugs. Before I drained all the oil and bought replacement parts I need to make sure I am removing the correct bolts and adding the correct lubricants.

A lot of good info here, but I don't see answers to your first two questions.

Yes, the top screw is where you fill the gear oil.

No, the domed nut is not the drain. The drain/level is the two hex heads just behind it to the left in your photo. The smaller head is for a plug in the bottom of a tube used for checking level (fill until it comes out that hole). The larger head is for the entire tube and for draining the gearbox.

The larger domed item is detent spring for the gearbox, I believe.

The OTHER book you need is the proper PARTS book for your year Triumph. These are available from some dealers who advertise here, or from EBAY.

For 1967, that plug on top of the gearbox is, indeed, how you fill it. That's the last year that the filler plug was there,
In 1968 it was moved to the side cover. Thus, the repair book you have is a later book.

The 1967 primary chain case is it's own sealed environment, In 1967, it does NOT share oil with the engine, but has it's own weight of oil.
ATF is the usual suggestion for better clutch action.

I had a quick look at repair manuals, the ‘63 one actually has a picture of a 350/500 gearbox, totally different. I have a ‘63 to ‘65 one as well, and at least around the lube area is correct, if scant! Finally, the ‘65 to ‘68 one, which only shows ‘68.
Sigh.

Parts books are also here to download, go to RH side and scroll down to 1967:

https://partsbooks.britishonly.com/#UpperBar

I have a 67 650 and 20w50 oil is good in the engine as in your picture but not in the primary unless it is api sf or sg. Not sure about the 30 oil in pic. In my primary I use 30 oil api sf or you can use a motorcycle specific 10w30. The gear oil in the pic I am not sure about as it should be no higher than GL4 unless it says it is safe for yellow metals. I think Don mentions this.

I don't use ATF in the primary as I am not sure that it is man enough for the primary drive chain.

Dave

Dave,

The black bottle gear oil is indeed GL-5 I didn't see anything about being safe for soft metals written on the bottle. Not sure how long he has been running that oil in there hopefully there isn't any major damage. I didn't see anything about the VR1 30 being classified as SF so I will probably flush it with a couple bottles of ATF and just run that until I can find a substitute.

Thanks for the part book I'll take it to work and print it out when I get some time.

Thanks, Jonathan

I was just saying what I use so not set in stone. If the clutch isn't slipping then the 30 oil you have for the primary is probably ok. Plenty of people do use ATF ( should be F type) with no probs.
Try looking the gear oil up online to see if it is ok.

The photo of the parts book is the right one. The repair manual looks to be the one that covers all years (From DU 101) so is also good. It might be specific to your year if it says from DU44394

Dave

1967 cases ( with authentic final chain drive damage )

primary fill plug @ center bottom , tranny @ top right
primary calls for #20 ... or ATF


tranny drain , on bottom of tranny , has... 2 center stacked nuts .
the smaller center nut is a fill-to level ( overflow tube inside )
outer larger nut ... is drain plug


63~67 primary cover has no timing window ... but later covers with timing holes are a direct replacement

68 cover ( with timing window )a convenient upgrade for a rider


last but not least , the 67 came me with a 4CA ignition advance ,( condensers on points plate)
if still fitted it should be changed out
for 2 reasons . its a bit a pain to adjust ... but more importantly it's electrically unsound at 12 volts
and was known to cause some soft piston seizures on triumphs ( mostly t100s ) ... but why take a chance

... it's actually the points cam that's the real problem on these and the points plate adjustment is just fiddly

BUMP

So I finally changed all the oil and refilled everything and now I have even worse leaks than before. I have checked and rechecked all bolts to make sure they are tight. Below you can see the spots after riding for maybe 30-40min not going above 50mph then let sit in the garage overnight. My next step is to replace all brass and fiber washers. Are the leaks normal size for these British bikes? Photo taken from primary side


https://tinyurl.com/3jvvewcn

Hi Jon -

That amount of oil, while seemingly a PITA is quite normal. If it was me, I would just put a pan/pot/baking sheet under the bike to catch the occasional drips until I was a bit more familiar with the bike. Most washers will be either copper (good idea to anneal before reinstalling), steel or aluminum. Rubber O-rings will more than likely be heat/oil resistant Viton material. These can work-harden after many heating/cooling cycles and if you find them to be hard, it's a good idea to replace.

When tightening steel plugs/drains/bolts into an aluminum alloy case, one needs to be careful not to over-tighten or the threads in the soft(er) aluminum case will strip out in short order. There's snug, tight and "oh sh!t".

Welcome to the Forum!

Steve

Did you lube the chain? The larger spot looks like excess oil flung off the chain. If not, it could be from the gasket behind the clutch or maybe gearbox. Still, it's nothing to worry about until the time comes to pull some thing apart. Park it on the center stand. That helps some. Card board is free and disposable.
These bikes don't have to leak. Proper assembly with quality gaskets & seals works miracles. My 72 was parked in the same spot for 6 months when I had to work out of town once. No drips.

worry not about the oil leaks. remember your bike is just a few decades newer than open valve springs and total loss oiling. oil on the floor was an expected characteristic of a motor. what desco says is true, but oil tightness is not the most imporant thing at first. fix the oil leaks next.

and quinten is right. if you still have the 4CA points, get rid of them . anything newer, especially EI, will make you much happier.

+ one for getting rid of points.

The engine and primary do not share the same oil in a 67 motor. That was a 68 change, and the primary oil seal was also removed. Kim the CD Man has your manuals. He is a sponsor here.

No, it was a 1970 change

My advice to all first time Triumph owners; you need these things:
1) time/patience
2) mechanical aptitude
3) money
If you are short on any of the first two you are going to need plenty of the third.
4) depending on the year of the bike you may need some special tools.
5) a genuine Triumph shop and parts manual, not Haynes, not Clymer, for your year and model.

You've got the right books.
Sorry, I already said this.

"

So I finally changed all the oil and refilled everything and now I have even worse leaks than before "

Thats so it wont rust .

ATF is leakier - Orl ther aces lap the primary on plate glass . Some even make gaskets from steam pipe gasket paper . Bituminous ish . Black stuuf .

You want to get all ' fingertip ' y with spanners & bolts , take up slack - point - Pinch Down - point . FINGERTIP Hold ! .

Yep 6ca cleaned & oiled , or lectronic . Ign .