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#878390 04/23/22 8:38 am
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Peter R Offline OP
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I have taken a look at the anti drain valves for the triple, as offered by L.P Williams in the UK.
The anti drain valves in general are somewhat controversial, and they sort of split the classic britbike world, as I can read on several forums.
So my question is, do any of you use a anti drain valve on the triple ?
Want to hear experiences and opinions please.

Last edited by Peter R; 04/23/22 6:34 pm. Reason: spelling

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Peter, my opinion only; I confess I'm a sceptic. I don't have any experience with it on a Triple but a Commando I overhauled and serviced for a period of time featured one. It never failed that I could see, but I always worried over it. I'd sooner have a crankcase full of oil than that worry.
I don't use one on my triple, but I feel a pressure gage would be an essential companion to it if I did.

My bike doesn't dump all it's oil into the sump, even if standing for months there's always at least half a tank left, so I've come to just kick it over to feel if there's a lot of oil down there. If it feels nice and free, I simply start it. I've never had to drain the sump yet.

My reasoning is, if a thousand users have no problems with their valves, I'd likely be thousand and one... If I don't have one, it can't fail.

SR

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Peter R Offline OP
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There is an oil pressure gauge on my triple, so I can immediately see if the oilpump is primed or not.
The ball valve in the crankcase may not seat properly indeed, as the engine wet sumps in a couple of weeks.
A new replacement oil pump was installed approx 2 years ago.


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I understand your annoying problem, maybe I'd be tempted to fit an anti-drain valve if it was that bad. The "worry gage" should keep your engine safe. After all, failures can hardly be of epidemic proportions or it would have been all over the forums. By the way, I trust you have searched the web thoroughly?
The anti-drain valve on mine seems to kind of work, though it does let half the tank content drain down. I never really did anything with it.

Why did you fit a new pump? Did you have oil pressure issues? Did it improve?
I'm not satisfied with mine, (discussed on this forum last year) even after a full crank overhaul, so I'm about to install a brand new Hyde pump.
Sorry, don't mean to distract from the drain issue...

SR

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Peter R Offline OP
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Thanks for your reply Stein, concerning the replacement of my oil pump : I lived in blissfull ignorance of the oil pressure untill I fitted the oil pressure gauge.
I also replaced the bearing shells, but after dismantling the engine, the old shells did not look or measure bad at all, so I went for the new oil pump.
The replacement of the bearing shells was probably a lot of work for nothing, but it kept me out of the pub for a while.

Last edited by Peter R; 04/24/22 9:02 am.

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Did the oil pressure improve much with the new pump?

SR

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Peter R Offline OP
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Yes I noticed a rise in pressure of 10-15 psi over the full range.
Now approx 80-85psi at 3000rpm.

Today I noticed that I have a leak from the thermostat in the oil cooler lines, Never a dull moment. shocked

Last edited by Peter R; 04/24/22 7:56 pm.

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Before suspecting the anti-drain valve you should see where the leakage is, from the oil pump into the primary or past the anti-drain valve into the filter cavity.
The seat or hole of the anti-drain valve often has score marks from the drilling. The ball sits on the edge of the hole, not on the face of the seat so any scoring in the hole will cause leakage.

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Originally Posted by Peter R
I have taken a look at the anti drain valves for the triple, as offered by L.P Williams in the UK.
The anti drain valves in general are somewhat controversial, and they sort of split the classic britbike world, as I can read on several forums.
So my question is, do any of you use a anti drain valve on the triple ?
Want to hear experiences and opinions please.
I have one of these fitted to my '74 T150V for 9yrs now with no issue. I will say that when fitting this the oil lines need to be primed prior to the initial start.

Last edited by Blown Income; 04/25/22 4:23 pm.

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Besides priming oil lines it is recommended that the original anti-drain valve be removed. Follow the instructions when installing.

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Originally Posted by John Healy
Besides priming oil lines it is recommended that the original anti-drain valve be removed. Follow the instructions when installing.
Good point John, I neglected to add that in my post.


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I presume that one just cuts out a short section of the feed line and puts the valve wherever there's room?


It's not a bug, it's 'character.'

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Originally Posted by DavidP
I presume that one just cuts out a short section of the feed line and puts the valve wherever there's room?


https://www.triumph-spares.co.uk/trident-anti-drain-valve-for-t150-with-5-16-fittings

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It could be good for a twin with a rotary pump?

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Do any US vendors carry this product?


It's not a bug, it's 'character.'

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Peter R Offline OP
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Originally Posted by L.A.B.
Originally Posted by DavidP
I presume that one just cuts out a short section of the feed line and puts the valve wherever there's room?


https://www.triumph-spares.co.uk/trident-anti-drain-valve-for-t150-with-5-16-fittings
I consider buying one of those anti drain valves for the triple.
I have a oil pressure gauge fitted, so this will give early warning in case the valve sticks in closed position. Just for piece of mind .


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I've never seen the inside of such a valve but if I assume the seat for the ball is less than 45 deg, say 30 deg, there's little chance for it to stick in the seat. If there's enough space around the ball not to trap any debris, there should really be no risk using one. All that keeps the ball to the seat is the spring and if the spring fails the ball simply drops and opens the valve. Having thought this through properly (at last) I'm becoming convinced that these valves can actually be safe. I need to see the inside of one before I'm fully satisfied, but as the designer would in all probability be smarter than me, chances are I would be.
My earlier remark "if I don't have one it can't fail" is a bit smug, even for me. Sorry.
Go for it Peter!

But why they recommend removing the existing valve in a triple is beyond me, I have to say.

SR

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“But why they recommend removing the existing valve in a triple is beyond me, I have to say. “

I don’t know much about the triples, but if the original valve is also in the feed line from tank to pump, then I would think as follows.

Each valve produces a (albeit small) pressure loss in the head of oil from the tank.
These are in series so add together, just as electrical resistances add together when in series.

As I understand, the feed from tank to pump was a sensitive issue with the earlier models, especially on cold startup, and a larger bore passage was adopted on later models (and the modification often done to earlier ones).

Just a guess!

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Originally Posted by koan58
“But why they recommend removing the existing valve in a triple is beyond me, I have to say. “

I don’t know much about the triples, but if the original valve is also in the feed line from tank to pump, then I would think as follows.

Each valve produces a (albeit small) pressure loss in the head of oil from the tank.
These are in series so add together, just as electrical resistances add together when in series.

As I understand, the feed from tank to pump was a sensitive issue with the earlier models, especially on cold startup, and a larger bore passage was adopted on later models (and the modification often done to earlier ones).

Just a guess!
Hmm, I hear you Dave but don't quite buy it.
Firstly, I don't really believe enlarging the oil feed is necessary! Doug Hele knew what he was doing and designed the oil feed to suit the demand. However, as the story goes, some racing bikes were tested mid winter, at MIRA I believe, sporting Castrol R 40 weight oil. They promptly seized due to lack of circulation due to oil starvation. Cold and thick castor oil can be problematic, and many used to heat it before they put it in the tank.Triumphs racing shop promptly enlarged the oil feed which probably solved the problem for them.
Most road going triples runs happily around to this day with the original size feed.
I confess to enlarging mine, even if I wasn't convinced, but it made no difference to anything.
Secondly, as long as the pump doesn't cavitate or is starved of oil, it will deliver full pressure. Any difference in delivery to the pump won't make any difference after the pump, unless as said, it's starved or cavitates.

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Hi Stein,
I have heard a similar story, but it was about track marshals having to start from cold when there was a racing emergency. It is possible that it is all myth, of course.

I’ve never owned a triple myself. My only experience was doing most of the mechanical work on a mate’s T150 in the mid 1980s, a total rebuild. It was much more of a handful than what I was used to, but it worked out well in the end.

Using a monograde oil (without heating it up first) in a triple would be asking for trouble, the central main bearings need high pressure supply from the get go.

Even though you doubt the value, I think you were wise to enlarge the route.
That you haven’t noticed any difference, if you hadn’t done it you may have. Absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence.

I usually think of twins, with their pretty feeble oil flow. The triple needs a much greater flow from the tank to the pump (some suggest 3 or 4 times), but uses a similar oil head and pipework as the twins.

Thus it still has only atmospheric pressure acting on the oil in the tank, but the draw is much greater.

You mention cavitation. This is a very real possibility when the oil is cold. It simply cannot be drawn from the tank fast enough.
Any pump has a characteristic input/output pressure difference (as well as defined limits of both input and output pressures), if the pump demands more than the oil supply can provide there will be cavitation, and consequent reduced supply to those all-important main bearings.

Cavitation may also prematurely damage the pump (as it does the propeller on a ship).

It is well known that triples are rather more delicate than twins as regards oil pressure, (those centre mains again are what it’s all about), so I would give as free passage as possible to the pump. Hence one non-return valve.
I can imagine a situation where there are maybe 10 non-return valves are in series such that the pump cannot draw any oil at all, by way of illustration.

Hope that makes sense pal!

Dave

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All valid points Dave, can't argue that.
I can't remember where the Castor oil story came from, so it may well be considered apocryphal until I can quote a source. It's well documented that a larger feed was regarded a worthwhile mod by many, and later used on some (all?) IOM marshall bikes. However, while Jack Shemans in his Triple Service Notes said that he considered it by no means necessary, he went on to describe the procedure anyway.

Anyhow, with a much more effective anti drain valve upstream of the pump, a flawed valve downstream serves no purpose, so better to simply leave it out.

Cheers, SR


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