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The disciplined and methodical approach to this project seems to be paying off.

It does, however, seem to require the patience of a saint.

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Originally Posted by Shane in Oz
The disciplined and methodical approach to this project seems to be paying off.

It does, however, seem to require the patience of a saint.

As for the patience part this whole project has been one trial after another starting with beating the stuck piston out of the bore. Then there were the many days I came home after work to try and get the, rusted mess, of fork stanction un-stuck from the slider, times two. It has all been slow gradual process. Personally I tend to gravitate toward projects that require a slow methodical approach.

I am glad I can share my experiences in the hope it will be of benefit to someone else.


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Originally Posted by Big_Jim59
IT RUNS!......... It will only run if I continue to press the tickle button periodically.......
Excellent... That means it has changed from grossly over rich to slightly too lean. So one problem solved only to reveal the next one. But still, well done.

So now, count the number of turns out your idle mixture screw is. If it has to be nearly closed to give a somewhat stable idle, your idle jet may be partially blocked, which you wouldn't have noticed before with all the other problems..

Also, make sure the small drillings in the carb body each side of the forward edge of the slide are clear. One is in the bloc and the other is in the carb body. I have seen those closed up from debris or corrosion causing idle problems.. Some folks out there may be aghast at this but welding tip cleaners work pretty good for poking those drillings clean.

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Originally Posted by Stuart Kirk
Excellent... That means it has changed from grossly over rich to slightly too lean. So one problem solved only to reveal the next one. But still, well done.

Thanks! I backed out the air/mixture idle screw and ran the slide stop screw in a half turn and it actually idled. There was no black smoke from the exhaust this time but cracking the throttle would put the fire out. I had to back the mixture screw out so there was some over lap. I have the needle on the second to the lowest (leanest) position and I think it need to be raised one notch. Oh, and the plugs are still black but the electrode tip on each plug is a nice greyish tan .British bikes are all about the tweaking and fiddling.


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Well done on this part of the journey! Can't quite get the right words, but it sure is nice to smile about it! (And I ain't never gonna pour vinegar on my bowl of chili again; as much as I love that taste combo, I'll save the vinegar for my AMAL Tune Up kit!)

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Since the bike is almost ready for a ride down the street, I am turning my attention to the seat, or lack of seat in my case. The bike did come with a seat, seat foam and a seat pan. The seat pan was rusted through in several places, The seat cover was stiff, torn and had missing sections and the seat foam fell to pieces like papyrus in an Egyptian tomb. It was all pretty worthless.

I could buy a new one but the OEM seat hangs over the rear frame rail and since the rear fender has been bobbed and I am using an after market tail light I want a modified seat. I knew that the original rusted seat base would be a good start so I cut off the back quarter. This, along with most of the sides, were the most rusted bits. I made a template of cardboard to match the rounded rear shape I wanted and then I covered the whole thing with blue painter's tape. The tape was both to help as a parting agent and to cover the rusted mess. In hind sight I wish that I had paid more attention to my edge details. The final form came out OK but the edge is less than perfect and I am afraid it will shown in the final seat covering.

I plan to cut the edge back down and have another go at it. I also embedded drilled and tapped blocks to mount the seat hinges. This proved to be a mistake because their placement made the seat pan mount slightly to the left. I cut them free and fiberglassed over the mistake holes. I will mount them in place when I have the seat finished and I know exactly where they go.


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Originally Posted by Big_Jim59
........ cracking the throttle would put the fire out. I had to back the mixture screw out so there was some over lap. I have the needle on the second to the lowest (leanest) position and I think it need to be raised one notch. .......
Correct. Within a certain range, the idle screw can be used to fine tune the transition from idle to part throttle. You're probably right about raising the needle too.

Originally Posted by Big_Jim59
Since the bike is almost ready for a ride down the street, I am turning my attention to the seat, or lack of seat in my case...........
Please excuse my enthusiasm, but you know, a folded up blanket or pillow bungied on would work just fine for a first test ride. I'd probably do that because new issues usually show up on that first ride and you want some load on it to get the rings to seat ok so, that gives you a head start on the other stuff while waiting on the seat.

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Originally Posted by Stuart Kirk
Please excuse my enthusiasm, but you know, a folded up blanket or pillow bungied on would work just fine for a first test ride. I'd probably do that because new issues usually show up on that first ride and you want some load on it to get the rings to seat ok so, that gives you a head start on the other stuff while waiting on the seat.

Oh, I know and I do have my trusty blanket for laying on the floor that would make a suitable make shift seat. turning my attention to the seat is actually a diversion while I bask in the wonderful glow of an issue seemingly fixed.

I hate to say this but I am not looking forward to the plethora of leaks I expect after even a short ride.The kick start shaft has already made its dirty presence known with a dribble and there is another, as yet unidentified weep. I am expecting trouble from the push rod tube seals. There are pre wedding band seals and as such have a reputation for passing oil.


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If there was a competition for installing and removing a carburetor I would win first prize.

Thanks to Deadstiffcatt I have a box of 376 Monoblocs in various stage of dress and undress. I found one marked #1 and proceeded to clean, dip, scrub and dip it within an inch of it's life. It seems that the spec for my bike calls for the #1 (as marked on the carb bell mouth.) I used the 3-1/2 slide that came with it but when I got the carb installed it would not pull up all the way. I installed my old 3-1/2 slide and it had the same result.

Then I installed my old 376 carb marked as a #2 and the slide moved just fine. I pushed the bike outside and with the old carb installed I turned the key, tickled the button and gave it a kick. She fired right off and settled down into a nice idle. The bad part was she just would not take any throttle. It never got any better even as the bike warmed up and is an issue I still have not worked out. I did try to ride it and it moved about three feet under it's own power but the fueling issue caused a flame out.

I am going to see if I can work out why the slid is hanging and reinstall the #1 carb. It has a smaller throat and should respond better to low speed applications.

Edit: I started to work on the slide for the #1 carb. I used a very light polish on the inside and I paid close attention the the slide guide that is in the inside of the slide. I pulled the #2 carb and replaced it with carb #1 with the polished slide. Not: I am very wary of polishing slides as they can be worn out this way but as it stands, my slides are pretty much worn out anyway.

Last edited by Big_Jim59; 04/24/22 7:24 pm.

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Distorted card bodies cause slide sticking, they can be straightened, see this thread, https://www.britbike.com/forums/ubb...mp;Words=Amal&Search=true#Post338707

Not taking throttle, when the slide is raised past tickover the throttle cutaway is critical, too weak will cause spit stall, too rich will cause slow faltering pick up, needle position has very minor effect at early lift,. A number three slide is a richer cutaway.


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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
Distorted card bodies cause slide sticking, they can be straightened, see this thread, https://www.britbike.com/forums/ubb...mp;Words=Amal&Search=true#Post338707

Not taking throttle, when the slide is raised past tickover the throttle cutaway is critical, too weak will cause spit stall, too rich will cause slow faltering pick up, needle position has very minor effect at early lift,. A number three slide is a richer cutaway.

It wasn't that the body was distorted but there was a gritty resistance at the midway point. It seemed that there was a slight nick in the slide guide but it's all good now. As to the cut away, the book calls for a 3-1/2 and that's what I have. Now you never know if some previous "tuner" has been modifying the cut away, so there is always that.


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If there is a #3 slide in that lot, I'd try it, or would try raising the needle by 1 notch at a time, or perhaps both, but definitely go just one change at a time. Wear on parts and body can cause a leaner situation, so part of your tuning will be to compensate for wear as well.

Backing up a bit in the thread, I remember that the carb initially had a little running with blackish plugs, but would not idle. It seems that by seating pilot jet well with the polishing, you now have an idle, but won't rev; this seems to be indicative of the pilot jet previously leaking fuel into the system, perhaps enough to enable it to run rich before the pilot jet fix.

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Originally Posted by Big_Jim59
......As to the cut away, the book calls for a 3-1/2 and that's what I have. Now you never know if some previous "tuner" has been modifying the cut away.....
Good call and easy to check when the slide is removed. A #3-1/2 slide cutaway measures 7/32", a #3 slide cutaway measures 3/16". And they do get modified. I confess I've done it myself.
Originally Posted by Deadstiffcatt
If there is a #3 slide in that lot, I'd try it, or would try raising the needle by 1 notch at a time, or perhaps both, but definitely go just one change at a time.....
Excellent advice. Once you know what slide you have in it right now, consider changing to the next size smaller. And.... absolutely make your changes one at a time. It helps avoid confusion.

One more pointer, always keep in mind whether the engine and the day is colder or warmer. For example, say your engine is super happy on a cold morning but becomes noticeably off in the hotter afternoon. That is a good clue that your carb is on the rich side. If it's only happy on a really hot day, it is likely running lean. I realize these are some finer points and you may not be quite there yet, but you will get there sooner or later.

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This is one of those situations where a Colortune is worth its weight in gold.

People rubbish them because they can't be used for tuning through the entire range, but they are an invaluable diagnostic tool for situations such as this.

My initial guess is that the idle is still a bit rich and the slide cutaway is lean, especially with a worn body and/or slide. The Colortune will show this straight away.

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Originally Posted by Shane in Oz
My initial guess is that the idle is still a bit rich and the slide cutaway is lean, especially with a worn body and/or slide. The Colortune will show this straight away.

Yep, if it were rich it might fart and burble a bit as it choked on the extra gas. As it stands it just dies like it's starving. I don't that it is a case for not enough fuel as much as it is way too much air.

The really cool thing is the plugs.I pull them after every run up and at first they were just coal black now, they are coal brack but the tips of the electrodes show the faintest of grey. So I know I am on the right track. I think I have the timing sorted well enough to focus solely on carbonation.

I had lowered the needle in my original #2 carb before my last run up and that's what may have been the cause of the engine not taking gas when the throttle was cracked. I put it back to the third ring from the top for the #1 carb install so we shall see if that makes a difference.

I am just busting to try the #1 carb. So far it is not leaking and the needle seat is holding pressure. There was a small chip in the bottom of the bowl gasket facing that I am sure would have caused a leak. I mixed up a nickles worth of JB Weld and wiped on a very thing coat, enough to fill the dent. I then dressed it down. So far so good.

Since I have to wait I have developed a serious carb building Jones. I have gathered the pieces for a third carb and I will clean the big parts tomorrow. I do not want to leave them all night. The vinegar really does a number on the corrosion but I still don't want to leave anything aluminum (or zinc) in over night.


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I think I want to pull the side in my original #2 carb and measure the cut away. Something is kind of messed up with my original carb. I had even thought about ordering all new jets so I know they are within spec. I do not think you can take anything for granted.with a 50+ year old carburetor.

Oh. . . it amazes me that people actually used these bikes for everyday transport. They must have tinkered with them all the time.


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Originally Posted by Big_Jim59
. . . it amazes me that people actually used these bikes for everyday transport. They must have tinkered with them all the time.
But they were less worn out back then and therefore more reliable.
(He said with a grin, remembering that he used to daily commute 30 miles on a 1967 B44E.)

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Originally Posted by Big_Jim59
I think I want to pull the side in my original #2 carb and measure the cut away. Something is kind of messed up with my original carb. I had even thought about ordering all new jets so I know they are within spec. I do not think you can take anything for granted.with a 50+ year old carburetor.
That reminds me. The 376 and 389 needles are different lengths and have different tapers.
Check your spare needle supply to see what you have available. From memory, the 376 needle is shorter than the 389. There is also the joy of methanol needles, but that's less likely.

Magnetoman did quite a bit of experimenting with carb settings using a data logging air/fuel ratio meter some time back, and found that the overlap of setting changes was much broader than the AMAL tuning guides indicate.

The needle and jet wear far more quickly than you would expect, so a replacement needle and needle jet is usually a good idea.

Oh, the other thing about carb tuning is to do the extremes first, then finesse the middle. That doesn't help if it dies as soon as the throttle is opened, though.

Do you still have the air slide (choke) fitted? That works wonders when mucking about with the slide cutaway.

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Used?? USE! I've been 1965 Triumph only for the last year and a half with no other running vehicle. Work, groceries, 25 pound bags of kitty litter, and an average of 7500 miles per year with about 150 (not a typo) inches of rain per year, all ridden on Penny. (Maybe that's why she actually has a name? She's a good girl, right Penny? Wait a minute.....Penny! NO! Stop chewing on that Prius right now!)
Other than certain behavioral (ahem) problems, tinkering has mostly been: Chain lube every couple of days, chain adjustment every couple of weeks; brake light switch hates moisture, oil changes every three months, valve check every few weeks, timing and points filing/adjustment at about every 6 months, Real repairs included new chain, new clutch cable, rebuild said brake switch a couple of times, new Shocks, installed new as-poor-as-Lucas LED headlight. (Extremely difficult to find an LED Headlight as dim as a Lucas unit, but I managed to.)
Prior to the move to Hawaii, 2010 to 2018- 4 of those years were also motorcycle only on Miss Penny, at about 12000 miles per year on the road (and overall a couple thousand feet airborne - we used to hit a bump in the road daily while on the way to work that got both wheels off the ground at speeds of 45 mph up to maybe 55?) About the same on tinkering at that point in time- did have to decarbonize the head and argue with the evil and wicked carburetor as well.
So overall I've got a minimum of 55000 miles on Penny, and probably more from the times I had another bike or 4 wheeled thingie. (What working speedo? Gave up on that a decade ago.... Map mileage!)
The preceding ties in because in 20-whatever-year-it-is, this old Triumph still puts in the miles, I puts in the tinkering, and once you get your carb resolved, you got a little catching up to do! Cheers! 😺

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It ran on the #1 Carb

It would start great, take gas great but wouldn't idle. And when I say wouldn't idle I mean it would run just fine if I held the throttle just a hair off idle. Let the slide fall and it died.

I went to snick it into gear to ride it across the yard and it stopped running all together. I put the set of Champion N3Cs in and it was a no go. I buffed the NGK BP7ESs that were in it and it banged off again. But it still wouldn't idle.

It is as if the the pilot jet is plugged but I really did check that! I want the best of both worlds. I want the bike to run like it's on the #1 carb and idle like it does on the #2 carb.

Back to the shop it goes.

Edit: I pulled the pilot jet cap and checked the fuel height in the bowl using a clear tube. It was good.or maybe a little low. The bowl emptied through the pilot jet. I pulled it out and made sure it was clear and it was.

Last edited by Big_Jim59; 04/27/22 2:35 am.

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Originally Posted by Deadstiffcatt
Used?? USE! I've been 1965 Triumph only for the last year and a half with no other running vehicle.

Are you running an oil filter? Have you ever cleaned the crank?


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James,
Quick history of Penny: Engine rebuilt by shop about 2000, I purchased her in 2010 with 1600 miles showing on that rebuild, also included was stack of receipts for said rebuild. It was in fair condition visually- it ran like crap and wiring a complete mess. After consulting chicken bones and a brief conversation with Lucas, the Prince of darkness, I rolled the dice and bought her.
In my possession now, wiring was fully redone, carb sorted, and several personal changes made: tank shift, nacelle added, big saddlebags, clutch and tranny sorted as well. From then she has been a faithful and loyal companion- and is due for a full tear down and rebuild- but I need to throw together another temporary engine to substitute while rebuilding her current engine.
So, no I have not cleaned the sludge trap (yet) and no oil filter (yet) The dice roll has still been working out.
_________________

Back to carbs........

From Shane's post above:
"Magnetoman did quite a bit of experimenting with carb settings using a data logging air/fuel ratio meter some time back, and found that the overlap of setting changes was much broader than the AMAL tuning guides indicate.

The needle and jet wear far more quickly than you would expect, so a replacement needle and needle jet is usually a good idea."

From John Healey's Vintage Bike Magazine, an excellent study of the AMAL carb: (note that it is relevant to both Concentric and Monobloc, not sure if you have read it.)

https://vintagebikemagazine.com/technical-articles/AMAL/

Gotta go for now, today I do feel like a deadstiffcatt. More thoughts later.......

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Thanks for the link to John's article. There is some very useful info there.

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Originally Posted by Deadstiffcatt
The needle and jet wear far more quickly than you would expect, so a replacement needle and needle jet is usually a good idea."

This! I keep thinking that I am mixing and matching worn parts and that's why I keep experiencing so many different outcomes. I am considering buying all new components and starting fresh. The problem with this idea is I am running out of funds and I really want to buy tires for The Norton. The Norton runs great but the tires are cracked and perished Avon Roadriders. I have ridden then 100 yards down the street but even that gave me the chills. I had kind of hoped to get the Triumph running in a semi-decent way before I tackled the Norton.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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Originally Posted by Big_Jim59
I keep thinking that I am mixing and matching worn parts and that's why I keep experiencing so many different outcomes. I am considering buying all new components and starting fresh. The problem with this idea is I am running out of funds
A new needle jet and needle aren't all that expensive, but slides aren't cheap. If you have a few slides to experiment with, you should be able to keep making progress.
Originally Posted by Big_Jim59
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
That looks nice. The front brake should work better than the original.

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