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Originally Posted by gunner
I would swap the bearings for fully sealed types which are maintenance-free.
That's definitely the best approach.

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Originally Posted by gunner
Glad to hear you got the RH bearing out by beating the LH axle with a copper mallet or similar.

The left side bearing should come out after the removal of the retaining circlip and use of a suitable size drift from the RH side.

.


I'm glad you said something about the circlip on the off-side. Mine didn't have one, so now I'll know to add one to my parts order so it'll be right. Easy to miss that little groove if you're not looking.....

Spent some time wiring a new LED panel into my shop to improve the lighting. Nothing more appealing than a warm, well-lit shop on a cold winter's day!

Whole front end's apart down to the loose ball bearings. Tomorrow, time with buckets of cleaner and WD40 to scrape down through 60 years worth of grease and see what I need. Gotta pick out some tires, have already had some good suggestions earlier in the thread. Not sure if I can true up the slightly warped rim ... if I can, I'll keep it and run it like that, if not, I'll probably lace up a 21" unless I get a flash of originality conscience ...

Lannis

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Originally Posted by Lannis
So, in preparation for playing in the woods and running Moto Giro events......
Where do you find info on USA Moto Giro events? Some bored rainy day California googling turned up nothing current.

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Originally Posted by Stuart Kirk
Originally Posted by Lannis
So, in preparation for playing in the woods and running Moto Giro events......
Where do you find info on USA Moto Giro events? Some bored rainy day California googling turned up nothing current.

Stuart……that’s a tough one. There are folks on here that have a lot more experience with the GIROS than me but since you didn’t get answer yet I thought I’d try to help.

As far as I know there isn’t an actual web site but they have a presence on Facebook. It’s put on by one of the vintage racing groups. Find them on Facebook and you can find some contact information if you want to ask questions.

Seems like they limit attendance to around 100 riders but lately from what I can tell they haven’t been turning people away.

I think they used to hold some out West…..but I haven’t heard of any of those happening the last few years

I’ve been to 4……all held in absolutely beautiful parts of the country. I did those by myself and I won’t do that again. If there’s a group of BritBike folks I’ll gladly join them.


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Lannis,

Excited to see another BSA 250 possibly hitting the Moto-Giro circuit this year. Do you think you can have it together by the late August event in Virginia?

We will be shaking down our bikes in April or May in western Virginia (Independence/Sparta area) if you'd like to join. I have a 62' C15 that will hopefully be ready in time and a B25 backup.

Chad

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Originally Posted by ChadB
Lannis,

Excited to see another BSA 250 possibly hitting the Moto-Giro circuit this year. Do you think you can have it together by the late August event in Virginia?

We will be shaking down our bikes in April or May in western Virginia (Independence/Sparta area) if you'd like to join. I have a 62' C15 that will hopefully be ready in time and a B25 backup.

Chad

I'm workin' on it here, boss. Working on the front end (brakes, forks, wheel) this week, hope to move to the rear end (wheel, sprockets, chain, Shocks) in a couple weeks, then strip the tank, seat, etc off the top and work on the wiring, which is the simplest wiring I've seen yet. Not sure if the ignition or the charging system works yet.

The big unknown will be the motor. I know it turns over but haven't checked the compression or bottom end yet. If it needs work, I may be able to do it myself with help here, or maybe there's someone who can zoom through a rebuild on one of these motors tout suite ..... ?

Hope to get it done, really sounds like fun.

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Can someone with C15 riding experience comment on final gearing?

The Book says that a stock '62 C15 comes with (front-rear teeth) 17-45, but that the Scrambler should have 16-56 teeth. That seems to be awfully low gearing for a bike that will be used 50% street/50% trail. I don't want the thing screaming and threatening to chuck its pushrods at 50 MPH. (The Trials spec is even lower, 16-60, but that's a special case).

What's a good compromise for street and dirt? I realize that the little thing only has 16 or so horsepower, and don't want to lug it, but .....

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Originally Posted by Lannis
Can someone with C15 riding experience comment on final gearing?........What's a good compromise for street and dirt?
For years I rode a '65 C15S on our local BSA club dual sport rides. Some were mountain routes, others were Mojave desert rides. It was always the smallest bike but managed to keep up ok. I ran 17/53 gearing and it had a close ratio gearbox. It cruised easily at 45-50 on the pavement sections but I admit it was a carefully built engine with an .080" over piston because I kinda knew what I was up against. It would do 70 flat out on level ground. My standard joke was "it's geared for 80 at 8,000 rpm" which of course it had no hope of ever getting to.

My only real issue other than a general lack of power was low gear. Any real hill climbing was a no go because 1st was too tall. This would be less of an issue if your bike has a wide ratio box in it.

Oh, and I weighed around 215 suited up with backpack and tools. Hope this helps.

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Lannis,
I have a several rear sprockets for unit singles and maybe a drive sprocket. When I go to the shop today, I will see if I can find them. I am not sure of the mounting diameter and bolt holes. You are welcome to them if they turn out to be something you can use. I have changed a few over the years to get the gearing suitable for my riding but that was mostly road work and comfortable cruising around 55 mph.
Mr Mike

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Originally Posted by Mr Mike
Lannis,
I have a several rear sprockets for unit singles and maybe a drive sprocket. When I go to the shop today, I will see if I can find them. I am not sure of the mounting diameter and bolt holes. You are welcome to them if they turn out to be something you can use. I have changed a few over the years to get the gearing suitable for my riding but that was mostly road work and comfortable cruising around 55 mph.
Mr Mike

That'd be great. I need to see exactly what sprockets I have now ... the front one might be worn enough so that I have to replace it whether it's the right size or not, the rear one is rusty but salvagable. Haven't checked to see what the compatibility is ... apparently the C15 and the B40 have lots of crossover parts, don't know about C15 vs B25/44/50.

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The chain line is different between the cooking C15 and the B40, believe the competition C15's followed the B40, the difference is significant. I used a C15 comp wheel in a B44 frame using a B40 rear drum and bolt on sprocket with no issues. These were 428 chain and I used a DID X ring chain.

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Originally Posted by kommando
The chain line is different between the cooking C15 and the B40, believe the competition C15's followed the B40, the difference is significant. I used a C15 comp wheel in a B44 frame using a B40 rear drum and bolt on sprocket with no issues. These were 428 chain and I used a DID X ring chain.

Sounds like trouble!! My C15S has many features of the "competition" bikes, and some of the "non-competition" bikes, at least by comparison to the available parts diagrams.

Luckily, all the parts are there, and just as luckily, I'm only concerned about what parts will fit and function correctly together, not on original correctness. I suspect there may be some try-and-then-return-and-try-again action with the vendors and guys I'm buying from, but that's OK .....

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Chances are……Mr Mike’s sprockets are 520


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Originally Posted by kommando
The chain line is different between the cooking C15 and the B40,.......
I'm trying to understand this idea. The space where the final drive sprocket fits is quite limited and the sprocket location is basically determined by the side of the final drive bearing the sprocket is cinched up against. I don't see how that would change without making big architecture adjustments to the gearbox and crankcases. All this to say that the final drive sprocket position is what dictates the chain line and C15's and B40's, B44's and so on are the same in that regard..

Now, if we are talking about rear axle spacers to get the sprockets to line up, I'm right on the same page as you. I had to do just that years back when I adapted a QD rear wheel to my '61 C15S. It took a custom spacer or two which was a big deal for me back then but these days is just a minor issue. Same deal adapting a Husky rear wheel to my current C15FSR.

Originally Posted by Lannis
......Sounds like trouble!! .......
Probably not. You will maybe need to make spacers and possibly adjust the dish on the wheel to get everything to work depending on what wheel you decide on.

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Lannis,
My sprockets are all gone. When I sold my last B44, a couple of years ago, I loaded the guy up with all the B44 stuff I had and I guess that included those sprockets. At any rate they are all gone. I could only find some brake parts that escaped my house cleaning. My workshop won't hold as much stuff as yours and sooner or later something has to go to make room for something new. I think I had a 19t front and a 49t, 52t and 56t rear. Not sure if you could have made anything work.

I never knock those little 250's. I rode a B25 in college for a couple of years as a daily rider. At that time, I could not afford anything bigger. It served me pretty well. It was comfortable and capable of 55-60mph in traffic which was about the speed people ran on the old four lanes and boulevards. I had an old leather briefcase that I mounted like a saddlebag on the back to carry my books and lunch back and for to class. The nice thing about a bike is that I never needed a parking sticker, and I could park it with the bicycles right next to the buildings at UT, Knoxville. The car parking lots were sometimes a half mile or more from campus.....but it sure was not so nice when I got out of a night class and it was raining and cold and I had a 12-mile run to the little house we rented out in the country.

Those were the days,
Mr Mike

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Originally Posted by Stuart Kirk
Originally Posted by kommando
The chain line is different between the cooking C15 and the B40,.......
I'm trying to understand this idea. The space where the final drive sprocket fits is quite limited and the sprocket location is basically determined by the side of the final drive bearing the sprocket is cinched up against. I don't see how that would change without making big architecture adjustments to the gearbox and crankcases. All this to say that the final drive sprocket position is what dictates the chain line and C15's and B40's, B44's and so on are the same in that regard..

Now, if we are talking about rear axle spacers to get the sprockets to line up, I'm right on the same page as you. I had to do just that years back when I adapted a QD rear wheel to my '61 C15S. It took a custom spacer or two which was a big deal for me back then but these days is just a minor issue. Same deal adapting a Husky rear wheel to my current C15FSR.

Originally Posted by Lannis
......Sounds like trouble!! .......
Probably not. You will maybe need to make spacers and possibly adjust the dish on the wheel to get everything to work depending on what wheel you decide on.

The C15 frame is different from the B40, they wanted to fit a larger rear tyre to the B40 than the C15 plus larger diameter so rejigged the frame to move the engine over and changed the rear wheel with the integral drum chain teeth to move the teeth over by the same amount , axle length was longer also. Later on for more teeth count options for the comp bikes the made the chain wheel bolt on

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Originally Posted by kommando
The chain line is different between the cooking C15 and the B40,.......
Originally Posted by kommando
.........The C15 frame is different from the B40, they wanted to fit a larger rear tyre to the B40 than the C15........
I still don't get it. Please don't think I'm just being nitpicky. This could be important to how the OP's project goes.

C15T's had a 400x18 rear tire from 1959 onward (both the swan neck and the comp frames), the C15S from 1963 on did too and the very first Victors (that weren't GP's) used the C15 competition frame (with C15 number stamps even), full width C15 rear hub, 400x18 tire and 428 chain.

I just don't see how the chain line would need to be different for a B40 to allow a wider tire. The very first C15T's had a wide tire and everything that followed was based on the same architecture.

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I will leave it to Rupert Ratio, this confirms there are 2 chain lines, one for the cooking C15 and a wider line for C15 comp ie C15S and T including swan neck and B40.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

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Originally Posted by kommando
I will leave it to Rupert Ratio.......
Thanks for posting the Rupert Ratio page, even though it has sent me right down a rabbit trail. You know how it can be when you think you're right but now you feel a need to prove it, or at least understand things better?

SO, now I'm looking over CBS's oldest C15 parts book which covers at least up to 1962.

Of all the parts that stack up to govern how long the rear axle is or how wide the rear hub assembly is, only two have different numbers, the axle and the hub. One number for the road model and another for competition bikes. The swing arm also has 2 different numbers.

The only difference I see that could be a reason for differing widths of the whole rear hub assembly is the sprockets. The road sprocket is 1 piece with the brake drum. The competition model sports a bolt on sprocket. Could it be that the extra 3/8" RR mentions is simply to make room for the more involved bolt heads, nuts, washers and bosses of the competition style sprocket and brake drum assembly?

Makes sense to me, so even though RR calls it a "wide chain line" setup maybe it's really just a "wide hub assembly" model?

Not sure this will help the OP in any way at all other than to remove some uncertainty but at least for me, that's always useful.

Here's the page. Oh, and notice that the speedo drive is easy to spot, right there on the rear axle.
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

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Quote
You know how it can be when you think you're right but now you feel a need to prove it, or at least understand things better?

Have a look at the rear engine mount on your C15T, is the rear mount central to the downtube, its central on the C15 cooking model.

The BSA drawing says its moved over to the left on the C15T.

C15 road, mount is central

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Drawing to confirm engine mount is central on road frame.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

C15T drawing (matches the C15S and B40 drawings) with rear mount offset to left which moves the engine sprocket over by same amount.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

So the wide chain line is from the engine being moved across to the left, the Swingarms are also wider with the left side axle plate being further out by the same amount, as per the earlier post where the rear sub frame is moved out on the left side to clear the wider chain line. The B40 combined drum/sprocket has the sprocket teeth offset further to the left than the C15 road.

RR again, which brings us full circle to my first post of 2 chain lines.

Quote
The chain line is different between the cooking C15 and the B40, believe the competition C15's followed the B40, the difference is significant.


[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

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Originally Posted by kommando
The BSA drawing says its moved over to the left on the C15T.......C15 road, mount is central

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

C15T drawing (matches the C15S and B40 drawings) with rear mount offset to left which moves the engine sprocket over by same amount.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]....
Thank you. Thanks for taking the trouble to post these.

Those drawings showing that BSA actually moved the engine to the left 3/8" on the competition models are the best answer possible and cleared up the question in the back of my mind. All but one of my C15's have been competition models and I have often noticed how the engine was noticeably offset to the left but it never occurred to me that the road model would be different on something like that. Go BSA!!

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Been reading all this with great interest, and will understand it all better when I get tucked into the rear end of the bike. In keeping with my desire not to have disassembled motorcycle bits all over the shop, I'm going to get the front end back assembled before I remove the rear end.

Gordon, got the parts and the seal holder tool you sent; Thanks!. I picked the best two of the short-skirt headlight ears. The seal holders were all about 1/2" longer than the ones I had. Not exactly sure what the difference would have been, but I think I'll stick with the seal holders I have.

Assembling the forks this evening; went back and looked at the past 18 years of Britbike correspondence to see what the modern 21st century bike fixer uses at the bottom of the seal holders to provide a tighter seal rather than using "#5 twine". I feel like that's in the area of picking oakum out of the worn-out preventer backstay and packing it into the gap with hot tar, arrr matey bear a hand there. I don't have an O-ring of the right size, so I'm going with the PTFE tape, wrapped around flat one turn, then twisted into a "string", and tighten the holder down on that.

bsasingles.com sent me all the right seals and bearings and such, along with volumes 1 and 3 of Rupert Ratio .... should have gotten 2 also but the Scotch in me (well, north German, they can be just as tight) didn't have arms long enough to reach the bottom of my pocket, so next time.

Interesting problem to solve; the stud onto which the central holding nut for the fuel tank threads just spins when I turn the nut, and I can't see any way to hold it. I'm going to try an air wrench and just get it off with inertia, but the dozy PO used a Nylock nut so it probably won't just spin off. That's for tomorrow ....

Lannis


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Lannis......I think the only difference in those short ears are the "indents" (for lack of a better term). But my guess is at least one of the short ones could be Victor Special? so 66-70?

My bikes start around 64 with the duplex C15C frames.......I really don't know anything about the earlier swan neck frames .....sorry.

I had no clue those holders would be longer?

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Originally Posted by Lannis
......Interesting problem to solve; the stud onto which the central holding nut for the fuel tank threads just spins when I turn the nut, and I can't see any way to hold it........
That stud notches into a slotted fitting on the top frame tube, and similar to a carriage bolt, the stud has flats under the head to engage that slot and keep it from turning.

Who knows if it still has an original stud or how beat up it is, but simply lifting up on the tank to try and better engage the flats while turning the nut may be all it needs. Another alternative? Try lifting just one side of the tank to side load the stud so there's enough friction on it to remove the nut.

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Originally Posted by Stuart Kirk
Originally Posted by Lannis
......Interesting problem to solve; the stud onto which the central holding nut for the fuel tank threads just spins when I turn the nut, and I can't see any way to hold it........
That stud notches into a slotted fitting on the top frame tube, and similar to a carriage bolt, the stud has flats under the head to engage that slot and keep it from turning.

Who knows if it still has an original stud or how beat up it is, but simply lifting up on the tank to try and better engage the flats while turning the nut may be all it needs. Another alternative? Try lifting just one side of the tank to side load the stud so there's enough friction on it to remove the nut.

Good idea, but I'll need to get some help, just me lifting the tank with one hand while holding the rattle gun with the other isn't enough. It's a solid tank although it needs refinishing, so I don't want to damage it getting it off .... I'll buy Fay dinner after church tomorrow, then let her know what the afternoon holds .... !!

Lannis


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