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Lannis Offline OP
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Gordon - You can never overdo passing on information, opinions, suggestions, and/or parts, I'll take all the talking you can do.

I don't think anyone's been playing shell games with the engine numbers... They and the surface they're stamped on look clean and original, nothing dodgy or over stamped or ground-away looking about it.

Besides, it would likely have happened the last time the title was transferred in 1983,when you could buy a truckload of these bikes for the favor of hauling them away.... wouldn't have been worth the time to meddle with it.

One thing I'll do is measure the cam lift once I have the barrel off, that'll be a good data point.

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Originally Posted by Lannis
......when you could buy a truckload of these bikes for the favor of hauling them away.........
Ain't that the truth, and it's exactly how in the early nineties I got my 1965 model. It was a rusty, beaten on chopper!! Struts, peanut tank, slugged front end and cobra seat. It was truly pathetic.

Last edited by Stuart Kirk; 04/10/22 8:59 pm. Reason: More info
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Lannis wrote....."I don't think anyone's been playing shell games with the engine numbers... They and the surface they're stamped on look clean and original, nothing dodgy or over stamped or ground-away looking about it."

I've had a few replacement cases/engines in my hands......no numbers at all. The shop (or you?) punched them when they were through swapping out the cases for one reason or the other. I could see a situation where the cases were swapped and someone stamped the wrong numbers back on it??? Maybe by the time that happened, numbers were matched?

BUT........I don't WANT that to be the case. cool I would rather find out they left the factory with matching numbers........for some good reason?

Proud to be one of the Unit Singles guys........Gordon in NC "It's only a Victor"


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Lannis Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Shane in Oz
Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
Do you know how much it costs for dating info now a days.......or if they even do that anymore?
Both the UK BSA Club and the VMCC have a machine dating service. The VMCC will do 2 bikes/year free for members, otherwise 10 or 15 quid. I think the BSA Club is similar, but don't know if affiliated BSA clubs count.

They were all rather stretched over the last couple of years, but seem to be getting back to normal.

It's certainly worth checking up on rare and unusual machines, and I reckon this one counts.

I'll take a shot at that once I've learned a little more about it. As I strip it down and expose things and measure things, it's probable that someone will say "THAT PART there means that it's a (Trials, Scrambler, Special etc) for sure...those were welded on at the factory that way" or something ....

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Lannis, IMO getting that info from the club is going to be the only way you’ll know for “sure” (if there is such a thing?) about the numbers.

I’ve disassembled a couple of engines (distributor C15) but that’s it. Never put one back together.

Just enough differences between the C15 and the C25 to be confusing.


Good luck and see ya at Windy’s for the TSMR. When you come up with a “want/need” list just let me know and I’ll see what I can share.

Gordon

Last edited by Gordon Gray; 04/11/22 12:03 pm.

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Just a little side note here. I've got a set of C15 cases with an odd number. It looks original but what is it? My books don't shed any light but maybe one of you guys know. Here's a photo.
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

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Originally Posted by Stuart Kirk
Just a little side note here. I've got a set of C15 cases with an odd number. It looks original but what is it? My books don't shed any light but maybe one of you guys know. Here's a photo.
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Just teasing us unit single guys heh???????? cool

1964 C15 Star America w/ the number 1 engine number for the model.

Gordon

Last edited by Gordon Gray; 04/13/22 9:55 pm.

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Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
Lannis, IMO getting that info from the club is going to be the only way you’ll know for “sure” (if there is such a thing?) about the numbers.

I’ve disassembled a couple of engines (distributor C15) but that’s it. Never put one back together.

Just enough differences between the C15 and the C25 to be confusing.


Good luck and see ya at Windy’s for the TSMR. When you come up with a “want/need” list just let me know and I’ll see what I can share.

Gordon

Gordon - Thanks ... it may be a while for some things, since I really need to finish up the Firebird Scrambler and get it off of the bench so this one can go up. I'll start with things "on top" of the bike, like handlebars, tank, seat, and fender, things that don't break down into a hundred parts that will get lost in a shop with 5 disassembled motorcycles in it ... !

The seat certainly isn't stock, it's a two-person seat that sits up too high in the front. If I can find a proper single seat that mounts level, or even just a pan, then I can probably get a nice lady I know to do the foam and cover ....

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Peter Quick has a seat........he had them made up.

I think it'll take a little sorting but he says it'll work. Not cheap but .....not nearly as expensive as our Russel seats. smile

He also has a thread on here about making a pan out of another model (TR25W ????) But a man must pick his battles.

Gordon


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Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
Just teasing us unit single guys heh????????

1964 C15 Star America w/ the number 1 engine number for the model.
No, I'm not teasing, honest. What puzzled me was Bacon's BSA singles Restoration guide listed a '64 as 'C15DB-101' but these cases are stamped C15BD 101, ie: the letters are reversed. So either Bacon got it wrong or the guy stamping the engine screwed up. It is interesting that it is the first USA Star for the '64 model year. It's in the books for all to see, screw up and all!!

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Stuart, you should start a thread on this, don't want to steal from this thread, but your cases may warrant some exploration. Interesting...

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Originally Posted by Stuart Kirk
Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
Just teasing us unit single guys heh????????

1964 C15 Star America w/ the number 1 engine number for the model.
No, I'm not teasing, honest. What puzzled me was Bacon's BSA singles Restoration guide listed a '64 as 'C15DB-101' but these cases are stamped C15BD 101, ie: the letters are reversed. So either Bacon got it wrong or the guy stamping the engine screwed up. It is interesting that it is the first USA Star for the '64 model year. It's in the books for all to see, screw up and all!!

I'm didn't even notice the mistake.... blush. All my written info goes along with Bacon.......DB. Guy stamping the engine got it wrong?

Were the cases used?

It is interesting........wonder what the dispatch records say about that one.

Gordon


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Learning all sorts of little things about mine .....

'62 Scrambler had the pipe going to the outside of the frame, necessitating the loopy kickstarter ... '63 had the pipe going inside the frame like a Victor. I'm either going to source a '63 pipe or buy a pipe shield for my '62 one ... I'm not having a red-hot exhaust pipe 1/2" from my leg!

The '62 Scrambler DID in fact have a 4.00 x 18 tire on the rear ... I said it looked too big, and the picture of the Mecum-auction one you showed me had a 3.00 x 18, but I'll keep the right size on it. My one has a 19" wheel on the front, but it looks like the specs call for a 3.00 x 20. My front rim is a little warped from an impact, not unrideable but I wont leave it like that. I'll lace up whatever rim is The Hot Ticket for the well dressed dirt racer of 1962, since apparently people were using both kinds.

I'll probably use Dunlop Trials Universals on it, unless there's a period dirt tire that people would have switched to. I use TT100 tires on my Norton for that very reason, even though the hot-shoes use Avons or something else.

"Period Correct" is my motto, not "Concours Matching"!

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20-inch rims are hard to get, and tires to fit even more difficult.

If it was my bike, I'd go for the 19-inch rim.

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Originally Posted by Lannis
My one has a 19" wheel on the front, but it looks like the specs call for a 3.00 x 20. My front rim is a little warped from an impact, not unrideable but I wont leave it like that. I'll lace up whatever rim is The Hot Ticket for the well dressed dirt racer of 1962, since apparently people were using both kinds.
20" tyres are like hens' teeth. I wound up acquiring a 21" front wheel for my B50MX after a long and fruitless search for a 20" tyre.
19" was probably used in 1962, but won't work half as well off-road as a 21".

Originally Posted by Lannis
I'll probably use Dunlop Trials Universals on it, unless there's a period dirt tire that people would have switched to.
The old Dunlop Uselessversals were aptly named. They were universally the wrong tyre for both road and off-road. K70s are similarly ill-suited, but easier to get hold of. Perhaps a suitable pair of Metzeler, Michelin or Pirelli dual-purpose tyres is available, and would still appear period-correct.
Actually, after a cursory search, Dunlop D603s or D605s may look the part and work.

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Great find Lannis! I think I had the seat that belongs on that bike but it went when all my other BSA stuff went. I forgot how to post pics to this site so I'll email a pic to you.

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A few comments;

The Corker 20" front tire is a very shallow block tread(if still available). Basically a street tire. Useless off road

The probability of a frame that was numbered at a different time than the motor and that the two were assembled together and matched..... Well I'm not a mathematician but the odds are pretty improbable. There are actually factory dispatch records that say which engine and frame combination a bike left the factory with. The earlier big ends and conrod were easier to blow up than the later ones! Which is why they were improved. It is way more likely that a blank set of cases was stamped to match the frame at a later time. This was easy for a dealer to do. Way way higher on the probability scale of things. But not as fun to think about.

The C15 Lannis pictured is not a Scrambles Special. Wrong forks, wrong hub, wrong gas tank. It would be an awful lot of work to convert it from a desirable model to a standard C15S form.

The default wheel combination on a 1960 to 62 C15S was WM2 x 19 rear and a WM1 x 20 front. The rims have been changed. Lots has happened to these survivors over the last 60 years. There are compelling reasons to run a WM3 x 18 rear and a WM1 x 21 front wheel. Tires being those reasons.

It should be a fun project especially if you have the hotter scrambles cam in it and use a higher compression piston (like 10:1) then it will actually be able to accelerate up hills. Of course the top end will have to be fresh.

I do have just about everything in stock for these bikes.


Peter

Last edited by Peter Quick; 04/16/22 1:12 pm.

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Peter Quick wrote....."It is way more likely that a blank set of cases was stamped to match the frame at a later time. This was easy for a dealer to do. Way way higher on the probability scale of things. But not as fun to think about."

Dispatch records should clear up that mystery but I have to agree with you.......chances are it's a re-stamp and by the time it was done.....numbers matched. It would have been a mistake because they should have had the broken cases w/numbers right in front of them?

Peter......I want to THANK YOU for all the help you given me over the years. Lots of dealers ignore the unit singles and having you around is a true blessing.

YLC......Gordon

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The engine is stamped correctly (ignoring the BD vs DB fault be it a Bacon or BSA operator issue)

The 64 stamping details are

C15 STAR AMERICA Engine C15DB 101 Frame C15 42211

Now the C15 42211 is the same number for a few of the C15 64 variant's and is the standard C15 swan neck road frame which was used on all those variant's

eg

C15 STAR C15D 101 C15 42211
C15 SS80 SPORTS STAR 80 C15SS 3633 C15 42211
C15 POLICE C15DP 101 C15 42211

Now if the C15 Star America actually needed a frame variation just for itself it would not have used the standard C15 frame but another

Here is what happened to the C15 Trials Pastoral for 64, new frame variant so its frame starts at C15E 101, engine is C15T carry over from 63 so carries over on the numbers.

C15 TRAILS PASTORAL C15T 2116 C15E 101

So if the C15 Star America had a unique frame then what are the odds the first frame was also C15DB 101, pretty high I would have thought.

Rupert Ratio is silent on the Star America in Vol 2, can't find Vol 3 to see if he covers it.

Factory Despatch records would be definitive.

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Steve mentioned we needed a separate thread for the Star America engine. But knowing Lannis he's not going to fuss over it. We'll get back on track once he starts on it.

Gordon


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Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
Steve mentioned we needed a separate thread for the Star America engine. But knowing Lannis he's not going to fuss over it. We'll get back on track once he starts on it.

Gordon

I'm the last guy to ever complain about "Thread Drift", since I've always thought that "One idea leads to another" is a strength of these forums, not a bug.

But sometimes, separating subjects with separate threads helps avoid having to read through a lot of posts that don't apply to your subject. Rule 1 of forums, though, is that you don't get a deed and a title to threads you start!

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Originally Posted by Gordon Gray
Lannis.......IMO it might be worth trying to get a copy of the dispatch records.

Gordon

So this is my next step, as you and Shane suggested. The information on the BSAOC web site is very much UK-registration and Member oriented (I was a BSAOC Member once but now an OVBSAOC member), so I've sent a query via the BSAOC "Contact Form" ... I have Steve Foden's mailing address, but no idea what to send or how to send money and how much (I read the 2014 thread on the subject but suspect that it is out-of-date by now).

So we'll see what I get back from that.

Lannis


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Got an instant response back from Phil Bull of the BSAOC.

They do have a process for Machine Dating which costs money, but that cost is to provide a Certificate to the Ministry of Transport in the UK so that an unregistered, antique machine can be certified for a UK registration in the proper category.

For simply getting the records of how and when an original machine came from the factory, Phil just asks for pictures of the machine and pictures of the engine and frame numbers, so I have sent those and he is doing that now; there's no cost associated with that. I'm a former BSAOC member and a current OVBSAOC member so maybe that helps.

I have to apologize to everyone who was doing engine and frame number research for me for a boo-boo on my part that may have cost some unnecessary time. The Pennsylvania title showed "VIN/ENGINE NUMBER" as C15S.3692 which I took for correct. Actually, that is the Frame Number. The Engine Number is C15S.3121. That at LEAST is consistent with the way these bikes were numbered, and now it's a 1962 C15 Scrambler (not Special).

Sorry about that, Chief.

And I got my answer back already!!

This is a matched pair,frame/engine original pairing,shipped from BSA to
Hap Alzina,West Coast USA on 27.10.1961.Recorded as a C15 Scrambles USA spec.


SOOOO .... now the parts searching and gathering starts! Some of the items on my bike are obviously replacements from another year or model, but I'll sort that out as well as I can, maybe leave some of the improvements, or try to get the right ones if they aren't an obvious upgrade ....

Lannis

Last edited by Lannis; 04/16/22 7:29 pm.

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Well you put that to rest.. clap...and thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup.......for them looking that up for you.

Gordon


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