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The variable pitch bolt was a special, only used on the airscrew of the Picador. I have a fixation about Fasteners as well. Most on Vincents were of three brands, SA (Sturmey Archer?), RO (Rubery Owen?) and CLR (Unknown). Many had plain heads. In 1958 or thereabouts, the British Standards were revised. I believe grade "D" bolts became grade "R" and the specifications for many things like cheese- head screws were altered. This means that if you use modern stuff it isn't right. A lot of the VOC stuff is poorly finished, wrong and overpriced; but it does polish up well, which is all that matters!

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Originally Posted by hardarser
I have a fixation about fasteners as well.
Finally, someone who appreciates the finer things in life.

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The coarser things can also be fastenating.
But if I was the OP I would be pretty torqued off as at this point this thread has been stripped of it's relevance.
Oh wait...


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HI All,
Quote
These aren't measly Fasteners, they're Vincent Black Shadow Fasteners. It's like calling a 12 kg gold bar a "measly gold bar," except much worse.

The "RO" on the bolt heads identifies them as a product of Rubery Owen who provided Fasteners to the populace at large
I am sure they would not have survived dependent on Vincent's orders !!!
The company is still in business but sadly no longer making Fasteners
This could widen the search for "original" NOS Fasteners

But I suppose upgrading Fasteners does not come under the remit of "sensible modifications" on this project

A quick search on ebay found these RO 5/16 BSA bolts
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224319639949

John

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BSA bolts ?
The shame, the shock, the horror !

What do the Owners Club say about bolts ?
Other folks would have been down this path before.
Anoraks tend to congregate ( in damp corners.?).

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Originally Posted by hardarser
Most on Vincents were of three brands, SA (Sturmey Archer?), RO (Rubery Owen?) and CLR (Unknown).
Originally Posted by chaterlea25
The "RO" on the bolt heads identifies them as a product of Rubery Owen who provided fasteners to the populace at large ... A quick search on ebay found these RO 5/16 BSA bolts
Guys, thanks very much for this information.

The issue is basically limited to some of the ¼-26 front and rear mudguard Fasteners. Although SS will do as a replacement for these missing Fasteners, and certainly would be better than functionally-identical UNF, it would be nice to have Cd-plated SA/RO/CLR originals. One of the baskets that's been holding my basket-case 1956 BSA for the past half-century may hold the key to filling in the gaps. I'll check tomorrow.

Thanks again.

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If you grind the markings off the heads of stainless bolts, its not quite so glaringly obvious that they are stainless ...

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Cheers How about photoetch the bolt heads with the logo ?Hunter

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Originally Posted by chaterlea25
A quick search on ebay found these RO 5/16 BSA bolts
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224319639949
The same seller has some other RO Fasteners. Some are quite long but they could be easily adapted to make the correct Vincent fastners with the "RO" markings on them.

John

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Someone (business ?) has a whole heap of used Vincent nuts & bolts in numerous offerings.
e.g. etc
https://www.ebay.com/itm/373740255034

Of course, these could be cast-offs from an ultimate rebuild.
What does the Owners Club offer in the way of new Fasteners ?

Most Owners Clubs put considerable effort in this direction.
And private enthusiasts also.
Someone near me offers complete kits for older Nortons.
Where about EVERY single one is a 'special',

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Velocettes used RO nuts and bolts, some of the spares suppliers have new old stock RO Fasteners.


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The ebay offerings are rubbish. Even original parts must be serviceable. Crankcase studs are usually stretched and fork spindles worn. Some mental deficient has even bid on used timing case spindles. I generally prowl car wrecking yards for old British wrecks. Pre- 1958 heaps have lots of B.S.F. stuff on them. Interestingly, nearly all standard nuts on Vincents are single chamfer, thin nuts are an exception to this. There are suppliers in the U.K. who have got single chamfer nuts.

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There's some detailed info on the bolt manufacturers and the markings on the heads on the MGA car forum Here which may serve as a reference for your Vincent bolts.

The author of the post notes that
Quote
It looks like the MG factory was not very particular about where they bought their screws or how often they changed sources.

and also that
Quote
So for Concours purposes you should not have points deducted for the manufacture name on the screw heard, unless some enterprising person can accumulate a data list showing which screws may have been used for which assemblies during specific production periods

Whether these criteria apply to Vincents as well as MGA cars is unknown to me, but is supplied in good faith.

As can be seen from the MGA forun, there are 16 bolt manufacturers recorded, including Rubery Owen, each of which has different head markings, potentially there were more as well but who knows, and it's not clear what years these bolts were available.

Interestingly, the Rubery Owen bolt is marked as "Rubery Owen" and not "RO", so maybe thats an indication of the year it was produced.

There are suppliers of new Rubery Owen (NOS?) nuts and bolts in various dimensions, such as sold by Grove Classic Bikes, see This Link. I believe these are commonly used on Velocette;s and presumably suitable for Vincents as well.

Last edited by gunner; 03/12/22 9:39 pm.

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Originally Posted by gunner
The author of the post notes that
Quote
It looks like the MG factory was not very particular about where they bought their screws or how often they changed sources.

Bill Cakebread in his book "Motorcycle Apprentice" notes that in his stint with AMC, on several occasions he was dispatched to the local hardware store to source some bolts to hold the mudguards on, or whatever, since they had run out.

At that point, AMC may well have been the largest motorcycle manufacturer on the planet, so if it can happen to them ....
On the other hand, someplace smaller may have better stock control ?

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Thanks to a 4:30am alarm, no work was done, or will be done, on the Vincent today. However, the alarm was for a good cause. In what was one of the best Christmas presents ever, my younger, motorcycle-riding, daughter gave my youngest, electric-motorcycle-riding, granddaughter (her niece) and me a gift certificate for a hot air balloon ride together. Our initial reservation was cancelled due to high winds, but today we had perfect weather for a ride across a low mountain range, flying over several herds of deer, javelina, countless Saguaros, and miles of interesting mountain and desert landscape.

[Linked Image]

After we landed my granddaughter said "Let's do skydiving next." Although today's "road" was pretty much a straight line, and the ride at only 15 mph, I wouldn't trade our ride together for anything.

Back to Vincent Fasteners tomorrow, after a full night's sleep.

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damn

i miss the lower sonoran. what a beautiful ecosystem.

where i live now, noon, today:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


i'm old enough to remember when patriotism meant not trying to overthrow the government.
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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
....After we landed my granddaughter said "Let's do skydiving next." .....
That sounds like a day well spent and I'd say your granddaughter has caught a bit of your wild streak.

Here's a lower altitude view of the Mojave desert this morning.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
And the lunch stop at Peggy Sue's Fifties diner in Yermo. http://www.peggysuesdiner.com/
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

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Originally Posted by Stuart Kirk
I'd say your granddaughter has caught a bit of your wild streak.
Although her parents keep her pretty busy, I'd love to get her involved with trials. If, for no other reason, to give me an excuse to buy an electric trials motorcycle I could play with myself. An organization based in the Phoenix area puts on ten events each year, located around the State. They have a 'Junior' class for riders under 14 (she'll be 11 next month), and an 'air-cooled' class that rides the 'Novice' line on older bikes, so I could embarrass myself on my Sherpa T.

Originally Posted by gunner
As can be seen from the MGA forun, there are 16 bolt manufacturers recorded, including Rubery Owen,...
Unfortunately for my Vincent, the British car industry discovered the superiority of American Fasteners shortly after WWII, so those from MGs won't work. That's too bad because one friend in town owns a repair shop that for years specialized in British automobiles so he probably has a lot of those Fasteners stored away.

On the Vincent front, my Hobbyair system was delivered Friday, and the Hamilton brush set on Saturday.

[Linked Image]

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Originally Posted by Stuart Kirk
And the lunch stop at Peggy Sue's Fifties diner in Yermo.
Shouldn't that be in Lubbock?

Next thing you'll be telling me that Alice's Restaurant is in California as well.

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As some one pointed out, Velocette used Rubery-Owen Fasteners. Grove Classics, one of the few Velocette suppliers, lists a fair amount of Rubery-Owen bolts. No idea if any of the sizes are what you need for the Vincent, but it is probably worth checking.

Ed from NJ

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Quote
so those from MGs won't work.

The intention was to provide info on identifying potential bolt manufacturers which might have been used back in the day, and which could therefore serve as replacements, assuming you could find any NOS parts, not the thread form itself.

Quote
Unfortunately for my Vincent, the British car industry discovered the superiority of American Fasteners shortly after WWII

I'm not sure that American Fasteners were necessarily superior, but it was certainly a good idea that MG decided to standardise on the thread forms used, thereby avoiding the mess of BSF, CEI, BSW, BA etc. threads commonly found on British bikes.

I believe that the Rubery Owen bolts available at Grove Classic bikes are actually replicas made by Velocette Motorcycle Co. who still exist in Coventry UK and make various kind of spares for classic bikes.

Last edited by gunner; 03/13/22 8:53 pm.

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Originally Posted by gunner
I'm not sure that American Fasteners were necessarily superior,...
Can there be any doubt?

A box I hadn't opened this Millennium, that I thought might hold useful Fasteners, instead holds a variety of other junk... er, I mean, invaluable BSA M21 parts.

[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by edunham
Grove Classics, one of the few Velocette suppliers, lists a fair amount of Rubery-Owen bolts.
Unfortunately, the Fasteners sold on that site have 'Rubery Owen' spelled out, rather than just the letters 'RO'. However, on closer inspection of my Vincent, quite a few Fasteners have no lettering on their heads, giving me at least two work-arounds.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

The SS Fasteners supplied by Coventry also lack lettering, making it less obvious they aren't correct, and I can easily, albeit time-consumably, machine the lettering off modern BSF Fasteners prior to having them Cd plated.

Since I learned from Cyborg that spokes were Zn-plated, I decided to see if the original spokes could be cleaned up enough to look new. If so, I could plate them myself. I tossed the front set in the vibrating parts cleaner with the coarser of the two media I have (some of the spokes from the rear are still trapped in the as-yet unassembled hub). As can be seen, in just the time it took for me to have lunch, they had cleaned up beautifully.

[Linked Image]

I'll put the spokes in the fine, "polishing" media as well but, before switching bowls I tossed in the original tools from the toolkit. These were rusty when I got the bike so I blasted them at the time. The point of putting them in the vibrator was to see if the surfaces could be improved. The next photograph shows them before vibrating.

[Linked Image]

As can be seen, the kit has a long tube spanner that's not shown on this parts diagram. I don't know if it got added by the previous owner, or if the tool kit had variations over time.

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There is quite a discussion on "thevincent.com" about the variety of tools in the kit. The almost impossible one to find is K17, the cloth. One was in an old tool tray I bought years ago. It was somewhat moth-eaten, but identical to the illustration as far as I could tell. Mr. Kenolty, the draftsman, was accurate with his dimensions.I did try to contact a museum conservator to identify the type of cloth, but Covid happened. It is a coarse weave cotton as far as I can tell, similar to "shop cloths" common in the 70's, but of a different shape altogether. Mike Breeding did produce good replicas of the open-end spanners, and I believe from time to time other brands of spanners may have been substituted, for example both "ATCO" and "EAGLE" brand for K19. Bolts with "Rubery Owen" in full seem to be of the post-Vincent era as far as I know. I use slightly later bolts more because of the quality of finish than for the resolute adherence to originality. The bike I mostly ride is far from standard anyway. I'm sorry, but being a Luddite, I can't seem to manage transferring a photograph to this post. Can anyone assist me with moron simple instructions, please?

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Admittedly this is several steps to wade through but it is exactly what I do.

Join Postimage.

Once you have an account, upload your photo. If you have trouble uploading from the desktop, run the Ookla speed check to see what your upload speed is. If it's slow, maybe use your smart phone to upload images.

Once uploaded, view it in Postimage, click on the "share" icon, select "hot link for forums", and finally copy and past the link into your Britbike posting.

Then, hit the "Preview Reply" button to see what it looks like before you post it.

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Originally Posted by hardarser
I can't seem to manage transferring a photograph to this post.
Thanks to Stuart Kirk for his answer. I'm a paying "member" of Britbike so I get to post images directly rather than having to use an outside service. During my early years here I used PhotoBucket, which seemed like a great idea because it was free, but turned to a mess when they pulled the plug on free Hosting. I wish I had never used it. Given the interest, I should at least update the photographs in my magneto restoration thread but, because of the significant amount of time that would take, the odds of me doing so are pretty close to zero. Unless someone wanted to pay me to do it...

Originally Posted by hardarser
There is quite a discussion on "thevincent.com" about the variety of tools in the kit.
Thanks very much for pointing that out. There's no name I can see for me to credit for the information there on tools, but copied directly from the site is the following (with the tools I have struck out):

K1 Inspection cap / push rod tube gland nut spanner stamped "K1" (original spanners were Hex and unpainted, later replacements 12 sided and may be painted red)
K2 Magneto center nut closed spanner with points nuts open spanner and 12 thou feeler gauge and "12" stamped on the body , 2 5/8" long
K3 Exhaust nut / column nut spanner stamped "K3"
K4A Terry's Spanners, tempered steel, made in England, open spanner 0BA x 1BA, approximately 2.42mm thick
K4B Terry's Spanners, tempered steel, made in England, open spanner 2BA x 3BA, approximately 2.42mm thick
K5 British Jenbro made, open jaw spanner 3/16"W x 1/4"W
K6 British Jenbro made, open jaw spanner 1/4"W x 5/16"W
K7 British Jenbro made, open jaw spanner 5/16"W x 3/8"W
K8 British Jenbro made, open jaw spanner 3/8"W x 7/16"W
K9 Jenbro British made, 5/8"W (1.100") Hex box spanner, length: 1 7/8" .
K9A Jenbro British made, 3/4"W (1.300") Hex box spanner, length: 1 7/8" (I have seen laters idenyical ones marked APO 3/4 WHIT)
K10 Jenbro British made, 7/16"W (.820") Hex spark plug box spanner, length: 4" ( I have also seen these 2 3/8" long and unmarked)
K11 Tommy bar, 9.6mm dia, length: 6"
K12 Pennant 6" screwdriver stamped "Pennant" inside a stamped flag or pennant. The center of the handle is hollow and apparently spot welded and crimped onto the shaft. (Your thoughts are appreciated on this point. It is undocumented that 2 screwdrivers that were substituted at various times were heavy gauge round steel (5.87mm) and stamped "Shelley" or "Terry's Made in England")
K12A Screwdriver 6" long, some were stamped "Toga", wooden handle. (There is a debate about ones with "Atkinson" marking and/or "Made in England" stamped on the shaft.)
K13 Two 7" Dunlop tyre levers marked "DUNLOP" (some levers have "Made in England" or "Made in England 273" stamped on the reverse side, some later levers are unmarked)
K14 6" Pliers stamped "Jenbro", flat sided jaws. ( This stamping can be very light. I drove about 100 miles away from a swap meet before it dawned that the perfect pliers stamped "ENBR" was actually a partially stamped JENBRO. )
K15 Tyre inflator with slanted nipple...probably metal-bodied Bluemels. (An Apex or Britten pump may fit the tank mounts, but probably are not Original.)
K16 Tecalemit Made in England, brass grease gun, 23mm diameter body. (common to many British sports cars of the period , motorcycle ones may be short-bodied )
K17 Shop cloth
K18 Jenbro British made 1/2"W Hex box spanner, 4" long.
K18A Tommy bar, 9.60mm diameter, length 7" . (Added to the 1952 spare parts price list supplement at the price of 1 shilling)
K19 Small single ended spanner 1/8"W marked "Atco" 3.5" long ( I have also seen Eagle Brand 1/8W 3/16 BSF CARBON 3 7/16" long wrenches)

I also have at least one of the missing tools in the form of a reproduction I bought from the VOC or Ron Kemp in the early 1990s (noted in italics), but I suppose I should try to fill in the rest. I don't know how the originals were finished, but because of rust-caused pockmarks on some of them I'll probably paint them, but perhaps plating with Zn, warts and all, might be better.

'Before' and 'after' images of the tools showing the effect of two hours in the tumbler are in the next composite.

[Linked Image]

The pockmarks from the rust limited what the medium was able to do, but its effect is most clearly seen in the improvement in the three box spanners at the lower left. However, it wasn't worth spending any more time on these so I swapped bowls and put the spokes in the 'polishing' medium to see if they could be further improved.

Last edited by Magnetoman; 03/14/22 2:26 am. Reason: edited to include a few more tools I found
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