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I searched on "hone" and "honing" because I know this subject has been discussed extensively, but couldn't think of a search that would find "Should the bore be lubed or left dry and degreased after honing and cleaning?", so after reading through a hundred inapplicable posts, I'll ask again, at the risk of starting an "Oil Thread" situation ...

Does break-in on a Brit cylinder work better on dry bores and rings, or lubed with something light that won't prevent bedding in?

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Hi Lannis; when they say "dry" actually is not dry at all.
Then; I rebuilt a few of these motors; I never tuned one (different valve timing etc) but never ever had an smoking engine and there is no any break in oil in most parts of the World.

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I leave it dry with the only lube being a dab of oil on the front and back of the piston well under the rings, never had an issue with bedding in rings.

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Lannis, I had help from Jake Hall when I was building my 500. He said to wash the cylinders thoroughly, (soap and hot water) then wet a finger with oil and wipe the bore. On the first start run it just until the cylinder gets good and warm. Then shut it off and let it cool. I did about four heat cycles, then just ride it.

Of course, now that I'm telling you, I've forgotten the ring brand! They came from John Healey. What the Halls and Mike Baker use for their race bikes. Not a whiff of smoke, good compression, and no known oil use so far. Not cheap, either!

A few years back, on my Bonneville, I did the same cleaning and slight oil, on the advice from John Healey. It worked a treat then. The rings were from MAP, but once again, memory fails as to the brand. Maybe Hastings.


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Most places that bore cylinders for cars etc will fix the cylinder head side
and bore from the other end if given one of these old cylinders. That's
not really the way to do it, it should be bored from the head end. Then
the last thou or two should be finished with a parallel hone, that's why
you should always provide the pistons to the shop doing the job. If you
ask you can get the guy to then provide a taper at the case end so the
rings will slip in easily making the job easy. As kommando stated, a hone
will follow the bore so if they are bored on the skew the hone will tend to
hour glass the bore.
The finish on these with iron rings should not be the sort of thing that is
used on modern engines either, most of the time shops will use 300 upwards
and that is way too fine, 180 or thereabouts is what's required, you should
be able to file your nails on the bore surface finish. Using running in oil is
good if it's available but primitive old sf/sg for the first few hundred miles
is the standard alternative. Everyone has there own assembly method which
is always the best,,,,,,,, i just use a finger wipe of oil around the bottom of the
bores as i put the pistons in, the bores should be scrubbed with hot soapy water
for at least 10 mins before rinsing then wiped dry and fitted, honing grit will
stick in the finish unless well scrubbed out.
Just my 2c.

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Originally Posted by Lannis
I searched on "hone" and "honing" because I know this subject has been discussed extensively, but couldn't think of a search that would find "Should the bore be lubed or left dry and degreased after honing and cleaning?", so after reading through a hundred inapplicable posts,

Lannis

Lannister, copy and paste the following in a Google search:

dry assembly site:britbike.com

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It's been a long time since I could not get new rings to bed in immediately. Jake finishes stuff for cast iron rings with a 150 grit hone, for thin race rings 220. I wash with hot soapy water and a bottle brush. Spray with wd40 and wipe off excess. Wipe a little oil on piston skirts and assemble. 30W non-detergent oil for 50 miles.
Best iron rings he's found are Goetz. Yes, not cheap.
Just been texting with him, he said that he did an experiment a while back where they had a 500 triumph finished at 150 and a KZ400 finished at 220. Same rings- goetz. The Triumph never smoked but the Kaw smoked on decel on the dyno for a long time.
Anyway, I never see a whiff of smoke on my stuff done this way. Obviously, don't let it sit and idle, take it for a ride immediately, on - off - on - off throttle, etc.
Works for me!

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Yeah I just leave enough WD40 on the washed bore to stop it rusting.


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It is my opinion that the majority of break in issues with rings is not the honing but the installation....Rings can get tweaked out of shape quite easily from rough handling using a ring compressor or other just feeding the rings into the bore by hand.
Including my race bikes, maybe 20 ring jobs on bikes in the last 15 years, half in the last 5 years..and a few auto engines....Some were me using a bottle brush hone while holding the cylinder between my feet on the floor. Some were done at a shop when reboring for oversize pistons.. The shop finish was in the 220 grit range, not 150....i used a variety of oils, break in and regular Jaso rated bike oil.....Had only one that failed to bed in quickly...I was careless and bent a ring..


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It is my opinion that the majority of break in issues with rings is not the honing but the installation....Rings can get tweaked out of shape quite easily from rough handling using a ring compressor or other just feeding the rings into the bore by hand.
Including my race bikes, maybe 20 ring jobs on bikes in the last 15 years, half in the last 5 years..and a few auto engines....Some were me using a bottle brush hone while holding the cylinder between my feet on the floor. Some were done at a shop when reboring for oversize pistons.. The shop finish was in the 220 grit range, not 150....i used a variety of oils, break in and regular Jaso rated bike oil.....Had only one that failed to bed in quickly...I was careless and bent a ring..This is my experience, so.....


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Originally Posted by henryanthony
Originally Posted by Lannis
I searched on "hone" and "honing" because I know this subject has been discussed extensively, but couldn't think of a search that would find "Should the bore be lubed or left dry and degreased after honing and cleaning?", so after reading through a hundred inapplicable posts,

Lannis

Lannister, copy and paste the following in a Google search:

dry assembly site:britbike.com

Henry -

Thanks, that's the search I was looking for. The info on those threads, plus the information that's been added here on this thread, should give me everything I need.

I notice in reading over it all that there are some slight differences in recommended technique, in break-in oils, and hone grit, but nothing badly in conflict with each other, so I'll take a good average of the advice and go for it ....

Lannis


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My 2 cents: I had very good success on my last couple of rebuilds using 30W break-in oil. The brand I used, although I don't think the brand is all that important, was Brad Penn, obtained through Summit Racing. I also followed the other guidelines as laid out by John Healy in a couple of lengthy dissertations here on the forum, coarse hone, scrub with hot soapy water, "dry" start (just a light smear of oil), put a moderate load on the engine immediately,... Anyway, the A65 emitted NO smoke, on the first or any subsequent startup, and the TR5T smoked a little but stopped after a short run down the road. After the first few heat cycles I replaced the break-in oil with the regular 20W50.

On a side note, I tried the honing myself one time, and did a miserable job (as attested to by fellow forum members after posting photos). Now I leave it to a competent machinist.


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Originally Posted by Mark Z
On a side note, I tried the honing myself one time, and did a miserable job (as attested to by fellow forum members after posting photos). Now I leave it to a competent machinist.

Good summary, and I'm going to try doing the honing myself. I've got a drill that runs the requisite 600 - 800 RPM, I've got a 150 grit honing stone, and I'll secure the cylinder well, and move the hone at a speed that will give me close to a 45 degree cross hatch.

Pictures only if it works!

Lannis


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Don't get too enthusiastic with this ?
You are only re-ringing this, so every thou you hone out is pure wear.

I found a bit of emery cloth done by hand was quite good at glaze-busting.
You only want a good pattern of scratches for the new rings to work on ...

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"Back in the Day" we used to use 150 grit emery paper and holding the barrels with one hand we would push the emerey paper down the bore with the other hand at the same time twisting the arm holding the emery paper to give the 45 degree approx pattern.
I agree completely with JH about thoroughly cleaning the bores with warm soapy water several times.
However 'back in the day" we would just submerge the whole barrel in gas and work at the bores with an old paint brush.
It worked---and had to work because we couldn't afford to pay anyone to do it and we couldn't afford special tools.

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Originally Posted by Rohan
Don't get too enthusiastic with this ?
You are only re-ringing this, so every thou you hone out is pure wear.

I found a bit of emery cloth done by hand was quite good at glaze-busting.
You only want a good pattern of scratches for the new rings to work on ...


I’ve successfully de-glazed a few cylinders like this. Fresh rings and back in use.


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Originally Posted by Allan G
Originally Posted by Rohan
Don't get too enthusiastic with this ?
You are only re-ringing this, so every thou you hone out is pure wear.

I found a bit of emery cloth done by hand was quite good at glaze-busting.
You only want a good pattern of scratches for the new rings to work on ...


I’ve successfully de-glazed a few cylinders like this. Fresh rings and back in use.

Hmm, you got me thinking now... I'm facing what I think is a honing and fresh rings, and my machinist of choice is closed up for the winter. I did want him to check my measurements, however.


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Mark,
If you measure the piston and measure the bore you are generally using two different measurement tools.
Each tool in all probability has not been recently calibrated to national and thence to international standards so you dont really know what their measurements really mean.
You then calculate piston to bore clearance by calculating the relatively small difference between two relatively large numbers.
A metrologist and a statistician would have hebbe jeebies at that process and rightly condemn it as inaccurate and prone to errors as big as the dimension you are trying to measure.
And when I say "you" I mean not only you but also your machinist.
Instead try direct measurements---put the piston in its correct bore and orientation and measure the gaps with feeler gages.
Measure at the top of the bore fore and aft and at the bottom of the bore fore and aft.
Write all the measurements down and you will see what your gaps are and can compare them not only with new clearances but also with wear limit gaps.
Then you have a clear firm set of figures to decide whether you just glaze bust and rering with existing pistons or whether you need to rebore with new pistons.
You will be probably be pleasantly surprised to find out that a glaze bust and rering will suffice.
HTH

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on that dry assembly thing, i do it dryer than most people, i think.

i scrub the honed bore with the hot soapy water and a stiff brush until im bored to death. take it out and dry it and put zero oil on it. nada, nothing.

then when its ready to go on, i smear a single drop of oil on the front and back of each piston skirt. nothing on the rings or on the bore, although everything else is smothered in assembly lube. i use brad penn 30W break in oil

start it up only long enough to verify the ignition timing, maybe ten or twenty seconds. then its off to the airstrip where i start it and immediately run up and down the runway, hard acceleration, hard deceleration, not super fast for the first couple of miles but firm pressure on the rings followed by as much vacuum on closed throttle in the cylinder as i can get.

i run around half an hour this way, maybe ten miles, up and down, up and down. then i start opening it up and holding it there. after a morning of this i take it out and run it seriously.

the rings seat well, never any smoke, no oil consumption to speak of, and the compression is good.


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Originally Posted by Tridentman
Mark,
If you measure the piston and measure the bore you are generally using two different measurement tools.
Each tool in all probability has not been recently calibrated to national and thence to international standards so you dont really know what their measurements really mean.
You then calculate piston to bore clearance by calculating the relatively small difference between two relatively large numbers.
A metrologist and a statistician would have hebbe jeebies at that process and rightly condemn it as inaccurate and prone to errors as big as the dimension

An actual fitter, rather than a met or stat whatever, can measure the piston with a micrometer, then use the same micrometer on the internal caliper that he used to record the bore diameter. Certainly to a standard exceeding that required for old British bikes.


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If you poke the piston into the bore, and rattle it about, you soon get an idea if its all too worn or not.

With some finesse, you can even poke some feeler gauges in beside it, and get an idea of the clearance.
These need to be a rather slim variety - if there is any bend to them then all bets are off ...
This needs to be towards the top of the bore, avoiding any ridge that may have formed up there.

And you should also be inserting some rings in there, and measuring the end gaps.
Too little is worse than too much ...
Again, more towards higher up in the bore, rather than down near the base.
hth.

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Originally Posted by triton thrasher
Originally Posted by Tridentman
Mark,
If you measure the piston and measure the bore you are generally using two different measurement tools.
Each tool in all probability has not been recently calibrated to national and thence to international standards so you dont really know what their measurements really mean.
You then calculate piston to bore clearance by calculating the relatively small difference between two relatively large numbers.
A metrologist and a statistician would have hebbe jeebies at that process and rightly condemn it as inaccurate and prone to errors as big as the dimension

An actual fitter, rather than a met or stat whatever, can measure the piston with a micrometer, then use the same micrometer on the internal caliper that he used to record the bore diameter. Certainly to a standard exceeding that required for old British bikes.

I have a telescoping bore gauge that locks. I then measure the pistons and the bore gauge with the same micrometer. FWIW, on the last engine I measured (a TR5T), the machinist got the same results as mine. I won't mind trying the feeler gauge method though; why not? I'm aware end gaps need to be checked on the new rings and the rings filed if necessary; been there before. Not much point in checking the old rings unless I want to see just how worn they are.


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Originally Posted by Mark Z
Originally Posted by triton thrasher
Originally Posted by Tridentman
Mark,
If you measure the piston and measure the bore you are generally using two different measurement tools.
Each tool in all probability has not been recently calibrated to national and thence to international standards so you dont really know what their measurements really mean.
You then calculate piston to bore clearance by calculating the relatively small difference between two relatively large numbers.
A metrologist and a statistician would have hebbe jeebies at that process and rightly condemn it as inaccurate and prone to errors as big as the dimension

An actual fitter, rather than a met or stat whatever, can measure the piston with a micrometer, then use the same micrometer on the internal caliper that he used to record the bore diameter. Certainly to a standard exceeding that required for old British bikes.

I have a telescoping bore gauge that locks. I then measure the pistons and the bore gauge with the same micrometer. FWIW, on the last engine I measured (a TR5T), the machinist got the same results as mine. I won't mind trying the feeler gauge method though; why not? I'm aware end gaps need to be checked on the new rings and the rings filed if necessary; been there before. Not much point in checking the old rings unless I want to see just how worn they are.

Damn, reset! I forgot, after posting photos of my cylinders in my "A65 Overhaul..." thread, a couple of you noted that there was some scoring on the bores. So I guess it's wait till my machinist opens up in the spring.

Sorry for stealing your thread Lannis - at least the material is related, huh?


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...I do not see many options in the market.
I bought new cylinders, so STD; new pistons and new rings; Is supposed that I would not have any knocking...what about if I have? There is no any other new spare part that contemplate that situation

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Originally Posted by reverb
Is supposed that I would not have any knocking...what about if I have?

In that case, something is badly amiss then.

Either the parts were not all std size, which should be spotted by any mechanic worth their salt.
Or the big ends etc are doing the knocking ??

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