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Hi Hillbilly, seton same page with sublet & TLC.
Not heard that definition of TLC before.
Isn’t that the truth!!
Don


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Originally Posted by t ingermanson
Worst that happens is I rebore the tappet block bore just oversized enough to get a centered circle, make and fit a steel top hat into the barrel, then refit the tappet block into the top hat.

You can use a Thruxton type guide block, they are larger in diameter:
https://www.morgo.co.uk/product/morgo-thruxton-tappet-block/

SR

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That's what I suggested earlier, but you would need the 3" radius followers, so cams as well to suit. The later (I think) followers had concave ends as well, so maybe new pushrods needed too. As it happens, I have all this stuff on the shelf, but of course I am in the UK! That said, you would end up with Thruxton valve train, so quite a performance lift.

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Hi Mick, sorry I didn't catch that. I'm not surprised you have it on stock! I have two 3" followers but no guide block. Morgos don't seem to have followers, but there must have been a few in use in the States back in the day I would think?

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Bit of an update:

The distributor has said they will not honor a return of the defective part, due to the 30 day return window having closed. It seems an unreasonable expectation to be able to properly rebuild a motor with farmed out work in 30 days, but here we are.

They have offered to help facilitate a warranty claim to Aerco, but I'm not sure what that means. I get a very short email every couple days. The "returns dept" has no published phone number.

A warranty attempt is apparently made by me boxing (perhaps the entire kit, perhaps just the barrel) up the parts(s), and shipping them off, Aerco deciding whether or not it falls under warranty (dubious quality standards thus far displayed), hope for the best and expect the same barrel (or perhaps a worse one) to show back up.

Should I just take what I've got, apply Hillybilly's TLC, and let it go?

I'm feeling pretty taken advantage of by the distributor who got paid for the part (they are a sponsor of this forum, and I asked for no forum discount, hoping for no discounted service) and is passing the buck, rather than offering the service (I think) they have already been paid for.

For our overseas friends, there are little to no automatic consumer protections in the US. If I have a beef, I can sue them and see what happens. Probably nothing.

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We now know to be suspicious of the AERCO cylinder. I'll stay well clear of their products now.

Now, please advise us who is the "distributor.' Maybe his return policy dictates that we should avoid him as well.

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I'll flog you a virtually new morgo kit with blocks and followers for $600 AUD if you like. LOL.

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ingermanson, the boring of a larger hole, a plug and relocating the tappet block is a solution...but it will require some precision work from the base side of the cylinder block..But may create an annoying oil leak situation.Or take the challenge to machine a new larger OD tappet block to fit the situation, you have the skill to do it
Since you did some clean up work on the piece it may fall under the often used disclaimer no returns if item is modified
I suggest calling the Attorney General of the vendor's state... I had a situation of buying a used car out of state from a large car dealer in Maryland. There was a title issue not disclosed ...I called the Maryland AG and they got right on the dealer .
Good luck


79 T140D, 89 Honda 650NT ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons
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@Hillbilly.
I've thought about trying to make an oversized tappet block. Might try that before I start hogging into the barrel. Trying cast iron would be relatively cheap, but the correct bronze is insanely expensive. $170 for 6" at a quick check. Yikes.

Doing a leaky sleeve would give me a chance to blame the *%$%^&* pushrod tubes!

Nothing's been done to the barrel yet other than installing junction blocks. I try to always modify the cheapest part to replace.

@Swede. I'm going to wait until it plays out before singing anyone's name. Once I've started down that road, there's only one destination, and I'd like to be fair to everyone.

@NickL.
Give me a minute. I might take you up on that...

Anyone want to buy an Aerco big bore kit? Never been run!

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Hi, Working in California in the automotive trade basically all my life. We had Bureau of Automotive repair training often. You had 30 day contract for returns. However.... Seeing the results of small claims court even a few years later.... You'd probably get refund. However, is it worth the time & effort?

Suppose you had photos and videos of the problem with new cly installed. Then you had photos & videos of old cyl & it works good. That makes a huge difference to sellers & manufactures. Truth be told do you know for 100% certain your cams are not centered properly? The photos & videos are proof of what's going on. Will only take you a few hours to remove pistons, tape up the rods, swap tappet blocks to old cyl & test.

You'll look like an idiot if the cylinder is not the true fault. Where does that leave seller? You must be real life sure with solid documentation. Then you have valid claim. I worked 11 months in warranty department. Been down this road many times. Solid documentation is everything. Then there is no dispute where fault lies. Only then can you reasonably seek a remedy.

Seller can't send cyl back on a hope & suggestion. They must have solid documentation. Without this documentation small claims court would deny your claim.

I'm 100% on your side. Been in your place. I just hate the replacement parts situation. Many (most??) spare parts are simply junk & poorly made. If the sellers have a workshop & actually repair bikes it goes along ways towards stocking better parts. Yet many times better parts are simply not made. NOS is long gone. Most parts sold as NOS is actually old Harris or the like. NOT genuine Triumph. I could go on for hours how frustrating it is to get proper fitting spares. Harris says made from original blue prints. Might be, but they still don't fit properly where the original Triumph part fits perfectly!!

What is parts seller to do?? They simply can't buy better parts, since none are made. If your tappet bore is indeed bored wrong it should be taken back by Aerco. They should have a warranty department to handle that. But do they?

I recently went through my transmission. Needed some gears, layshaft. Got new Harris parts. A crap shoot for quality. Tooth finish was marginal. Layshaft was not to dimensions of old & dogs would clip each other when not in gear. Had to custom make thrust washers to bias layshaft over to stop dogs from hitting. I can do that. What about the average Joe that doesn't have lathe. Who is he going to find to set this up? Took hours!

There is simply no excuse for the poor quality of spare parts. If the parts actually fit & were as durable as genuine twice the price would be a good value.

Might be better to buy Morgo kit & grind the fins round? This entire situation you're in just sucks!!
Don


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I would not touch the barrel my self or get anyone to work on it. Why should you ? Its brand new and you have a expectation that the goods you bought, not inexpensively, will actually fit and be of good quality.

Forget about the 30 warranty nonsense, go back to the seller and tell them they sold you dud barrels, and if they want to get all legal, say fine, the small claims court it is then.

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Meanwhile, the OP has to wait for his small courts claim date...and even if he wins, there is no guarantee of payment, it's his problem to collect it..And being mail order the claim may have to be filed in the vendor's district that could be in another state...


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I assume you used a credit card to pay for the cylinder. Most credit card companies will help with these types of problems. PayPal has terms that handle situations like this.

I must disclose that we are one of several distributors who supply Aerco cylinders to dealers in the US.

I have some problems following this thread: When facing the crankcase mouth, you level the front to back before you take a cut to level. If leveled properly where the face was level side to side you would never have to take ANY from the mouth front to back. When mounting the crankcase in a fixture, referencing the main bearings, you are leveling the crankcase front to back to establish a datum point. Then you can check the crankcase face to see if it aligns with the center line of the crankshaft.

I can only assume that you are working on a non-unit motor as the the Aerco is a drop on kit requiring no machine work to install. If you are working with a Unit motor, and having to bore out the crankcase .030" to install the cylinder, raises some flags.

Quote
"The cases needed to be bored out .030" for the barrel skirts. "

The castings are machined on a CNC machine. The bore, outside face of the skirts, flange face, and all of the stud and oil feed holes are machined while in a static fixture. This means that any metal that has to be removed from the crankcase is a problem with the crankcase, not the cylinder.

Seeing you have access to someone that has a Bridgeport mill you can easily measure the location of the tappet guide hole in the cylinder flange between the the studs. If he has a digital readout (DRO) it should only take a half hour at most.

I think you mentioned somewhere above that the cam lobes are not centered in the hole for the tappet guide in the crankcase. This is strange.

As I have a 100% return policy with my dealers I don't think the unit came through me.
Feel free to PM me.
John

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First off, thanks everybody. For both good advisement, and for the interest helping me out.

TR7RVMan, there is no doubt a fault with the barrels. One picture is all you'd need to see. I don't have the ability to post pics, but perhaps I'll up my membership again so I can. I've checked everything that i can think of a few times, and everything else seems to be a ok.

John Healy, The (non-unit) cases were mismatched as the previous pair cracked across the drive-side bearing mouth. The "new" pair needed to be leveled, and there was a small but definite low spot on one of the corners. Don't know what happened, but at some point it got a bit squished, but only .003 lower than the rest of that side, and just that corner. The Starrett "Last Word" dropped off on that corner traveling across both axes. Much better than I thought I would find. I skimmed the entirety of the mouth until I got light witness marks at the low spot. The cut at it's deepest point was .004". The opposite side case was lower than the other's high point, so it fit right into those cuts. It got got maybe .001-.002" removed. With the crank and cams in new bearings and bushes, the seam between the cases before was barely enough to catch a fingernail, but I was worried about that low spot under the corner stud. The machining was done locating the crank on v-blocks, and leveling using 123 blocks and feeler gauges against the bottom sump plate surface until the mouth was as square as I could get it, dragging that Last Word across the face. 3 hours of set-up for a 5 minute op, as usual.

The cab lobes are not exactly centered, but only upon close inspection and measurement, once the tappets were not riding on their prespective lobes. If I wasn't measuring and was looking down the bores and comparing to the case seam, I'd say, "Yep. Centered."

There is one of the tappet block bores (inlet side) that is visually way off center between the studs (accounting for the locating sleeve around the one), the other (exhaust) is dead center. Measured, the "bad" one is .030" off center, with the set screw and counterbore being centered over the tappet block bore, not between the studs. The counterbore relief runs out of the barrel's flange lobe, so is more of a C shape than an O. (A Google search of Aerco big bore kits show barrels with this "feature" on a couple pics advertising their sale.) I don't necessarily think too much of that, because you can't judge these locations based on the external dimensions, unless the starting reference and registration point is known. Having an oversized casting would be the way I would approach it if I were making these.

I thought that perhaps the flanges on the new timing side cam bushings were too thick, offsetting both cams to the timing side, contributing the lobes being slightly off center and the one inlet cam hitting both tappets, but the flanges are the same as the old ones I pulled out. Could be that all four are too thick, but that might be stretching.

I guess the gist of this whole thing is do I look at these aftermarket parts as raw materials and expect to massage everything to get it to work, or is it a reasonable expectation that everything I pull out of the box is ready to plug and play. I'm ok with the former. I enjoy problem solving and playing with metal (I am a self-employed metal fabricator), but I don't have a good frame of reference for those expectations. Up until a few years ago, I had a local shop (or two or three) where I could go and get good parts and advice. If the repop parts were not worth the trouble, I would be told to go upstairs and pull a good one out of the used bins. All those folks have retired and I miss my ignorance!

All I really need from the supplier in question is this frame of reference. I don't have to like the answer, but I need the answer, instead of the wishy-washy buck passing. I have tried to make this clear, but...

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Could you have a new tappet block made with offset holes tor the tappets? Or perhaps re-machine your tappet block?




Ed from NJ

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I don't think there's enough room in the push rod tube for an eccentric tappet block.

If that was the road I traveled down, I'd make a new tappet block and fit to an oversize bore, or a sleeve to use the stock block in an oversize bore.

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Aerco stuff is normally pretty good.

Doesn’t help but uk law/ EU says the vendor is responsible.
They then take it up with the trade supplier.
As suggested if you paid by card then technically the card company is the seller.

It’s tricky because once you have machined something it’s complicated.

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As of right now, zero modifications have been performed to the part in question, short of knocking in tappet blocks.

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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Meanwhile, the OP has to wait for his small courts claim date...and even if he wins, there is no guarantee of payment, it's his problem to collect it..And being mail order the claim may have to be filed in the vendor's district that could be in another state...


Oh i find the mere threat of court can work wonders. A summons to court on official paper can suddenly reopen negotiations. Worked for me on two occasions. A neighbour bought a cooker that would not work after a few weeks. The shop didn't want to know. So he made up a placard saying "This company are crooks, don't buy here" or something similar and spent a morning marching up and down outside their shop, and surprise surprise, a new cooker was suddenly offered.

Why should the OP spend his own money, time and effort and probably wind up with a bodged set of barrels anyway, when he paid for an article that should be a drop on item.

Someone might like to shoot Aerco an email telling them this thread is open on one of, if not the biggest, British classic bike forums on the web ?

I need a set of 750 barrels and was considering aerco because i find morgo barrels an ugly shape. I am having second thoughts, how many more ?

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Well, before we get the pitchforks out, I'm going to try and close all the tolerance gaps I can, starting with some new cam bushings. The lobes are not perfectly centered on the case seam. They are pretty close, but not perfect.

I'm going to try to go through everything individually and collectively one more time and get everything perfect (as I can) to rule out a tolerance stack. Everything can be "passing", but when all the tolerances stack up, it can push the assembly into non-functioning territory. I'm definitely in non-functioning territory, but which route got me here? I should know all of this before I make any decision, whether that's sending something back, or modifying to make it work.

I'll keep y'all posted.

Thanks again for all the help with this.

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Originally Posted by t ingermanson
Well, before we get the pitchforks out, I'm going to try and close all the tolerance gaps I can, starting with some new cam bushings. The lobes are not perfectly centered on the case seam. They are pretty close, but not perfect.

I'm going to try to go through everything individually and collectively one more time and get everything perfect (as I can) to rule out a tolerance stack. Everything can be "passing", but when all the tolerances stack up, it can push the assembly into non-functioning territory. I'm definitely in non-functioning territory, but which route got me here? I should know all of this before I make any decision, whether that's sending something back, or modifying to make it work.

I'll keep y'all posted.

Thanks again for all the help with this.



Any chance of a picture of the offending item ?

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I thought you said, some time previously, that you could see that the tappet block bore on one side was nit central? Didn't you even give a measurement (.030"?) for how far it is out? Surely that's your answer right there? Or am I missing something?


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Hi, Than was my point in fitting tappet blocks in original cylinders & trial fit them.

You had a known good condition as far as tappet/cam interference is concerned.
If not good you know you have to correct this first.
Don


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If you PM me some pictures I can post them for you.


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