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When I tried the metal spinning, I figured the flange should be sandwiched between 2 plates and held together with bolts so nothing moves except for the outer part of the flange. Although the plan was a dud, I think the sandwich could still be used in the press as a base. Nothing to limit the travel, which might be a good thing? Just machine the top bit. Smaller diameter spoke heads are sounding better all the time.


I still like the idea of turning the drums in the lathe. The 21” wheel I was referring to has a drum setup like your Ariel, so should be turned after lacing.

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If you get the spoke flanges bent to near the maximum height I gave earlier and your drums are original in shape you'll not need the spacing shim. It was only introduced as a bodge to overcome spokes with too large a bend. As I said, any space this shim takes up must be embezzled from somewhere else in a fairly tight bit of design. One of the good things about the Vincent design is that the drums are not pulled about by spoke tension and rim loads, although after 70 years drive loads usually crack them. Therefore, although I'm not an engineer, just a humble poetry reader, it would seem that mounting the wheel and then skimming the drum would be a futile elaboration of effort.

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Originally Posted by hardarser
mounting the wheel and then skimming the drum would be a futile elaboration of effort.
I can guarantee there will be plenty of futile efforts involved before I'm finished with this bike...

The pair of F145 and F145/1 hinges arrived from Coventry Spares, and they look great. However, it did take a couple of minutes to prepare them for fitting to the mudguards. As the next photograph shows, small amounts of flashing projected below the casting and had to be filed off.

[Linked Image]

With the flashing removed, I discovered another problem. Note that the central mounting hole appears to be smaller than the other two ¼" holes.

[Linked Image]

It doesn't just appear to be smaller, it is smaller. The drawing in the parts manual shows the same ¼" bolt is used, and there's already a ¼" hole in the mudguard. Oh dear! I'm totally stumped at this point. What am it to do!?... Oh, that's right, I remembered that I own a ¼" drill bit, so maybe it's not hopeless.

[Linked Image]

Thanks to superhuman machining skills on my part, the hinge now had three ¼" holes. But, the two outermost holes in the "wings" of the mudguard didn't quite align with the ones I already had precisely drilled for the original hinge.

[Linked Image]

This time I remembered I own a file, so that problem was quickly dealt with, although at the expense of having oval holes hidden beneath the hinge.

To digress, thirty years ago I had a research contract to buy an extremely expensive piece of equipment, versions of which were made by only three companies in the world: in France, England, and the U.S. However, these are specifically made for producing semiconductors and I needed to convince a company to make substantial changes so it would be suitable for my research.

I was on sabbatical in Paris at the time I was informed my research proposal had been selected, so one week I visited the French company in a Paris suburb. The technicians were wearing lab coats of various colors, a large plaster patch was on one wall, and one technician was smoking by an open window. The next week I visited the English company. The technicians all were wearing identical crisp blue lab coats, the factory installation was immaculate, and no one was smoking. However, I noted to the guy who was showing me around that the most common tool I saw being used was a file. So, me needing to use a file on my Vincent is in a proud tradition of English fitting practices.[*]

[*]As a footnote, despite the difference in their approach to production, the French and English companies both made fine machines. Also, in line with the different cultures, the French took me to a Michelin 1 Star restaurant for dinner, while the English took me to the equivalent of a Dennys for lunch (it was East Grinstead and, to their credit, they were embarrassed there was nothing better within driving distance). In the end I bought from the American company because they were willing to make a machine with all the specifications I required.

[Linked Image]

However, a few years later I acquired one of the French machines with complementary analytical capabilities, to which we grafted an additional chamber we designed for experiments on magnetic materials.

[Linked Image]

Ten years after that we fabricated our own with specialized capabilities for a specific experiment.

[Linked Image]

All of the above (barely) prepared me for dealing with the intricacies and complexities of a mechanism as superbly designed and finely crafted as a Vincent.

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No doubt they used those in the off hours for distilling bathtub gin or decanting wine.

Futile is my middle name…(have a look at my flange bender).. it may well be futile, in fact I hope you are correct. Unfortunately my paranoia dictates that I assemble everything and indicate the runout. I’m using new hubs and new drums which may or may not be good reason to measure things once assembled. So far, I have discovered that the shoulder on the new hub (where the drum sits) is undersize. Whether or not that matters with 10 bolts locating it has yet to be answered. As long as all the bolt holes are Concentric with the bearing bore, it should be fine.

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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
......the French took me to a Michelin 1 Star restaurant for dinner, while the English took me to the equivalent of a Dennys for lunch
A good friend has a very senior role on a multi billion $ mega project which is being delivered by a French company. As a result my friend has been spending 2 or 3 days a week in Paris at their HQ. He was telling me that early on he was giving a presentation to their Board of Directors and at about 11:50 one of the Directors interrupted and asked if he was going to be much longer. My friend said not much, maybe 20 mins. The Director said no, it could be no longer than 10 mins as they would stop at 12:00 for lunch without fail. Lunch was in the "canteen" which my friend likened to a Michilin Starred restaurant and was 3 courses plus wine. All free. He says its like that whenever he is there, strict 12:00 stop and a 2 hour lunch. Its doing nothing to dispel the national stereotype.

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Originally Posted by George Kaplan
Its doing nothing to dispel the national stereotype.
I have a Nordic work ethic so I assumed I wouldn't much like France prior to my first trip there for a conference many years ago. However, I loved it and immediately made arrangements to spend a sabbatical there. On that later trip, when introduced to the departmental secretary, I asked for a key to the building. She looked puzzled, explained the building was unlocked from 8am to 5pm every weekday, so why would I need a key? I replied that it was so I could work on weekends. She rolled her eyes and said "Ah, an American." On a later trip, when I spent a month working there, I went to a different restaurant every night, with the idea that on the last night I would return to the one I had liked best. However, I caught a cold at the end of that trip so went to a Chinese restaurant for a bowl of chicken soup on the last night. Thirty different restaurants in a month, none of which was worse than 'quite nice'. Ah, the French. What's not to love about the national stereotype?

Originally Posted by Cyborg
No doubt they used those in the off hours for distilling bathtub gin or decanting wine.
Unfortunately, they're useless for any such tasks.

[Linked Image]

At a pressure of 10–11 the chambers mostly held a very large quantity of nothing. If it weren't for the walls, at that pressure a residual O2 or N2 molecule would travel the distance from LA to New York before it finally found another one to collide with.

I have a fair amount of experience with stainless steel as a result of working with thousands of pounds of it, and the challenge of not having it seize since ordinary lubricants couldn't be used. Internally, the outgassing from the oils of a single fingerprint on the wall would have been enough to raise the pressure by a factor of 10×. Externally, the chambers had to be baked for four days at 200 ℃ / 392 ℉ after each time they were opened for upgrades or repairs so ordinary lubricants on the bolts would have made an ugly mess.

This research necessitated working practices that would put the most fastidious motorcycle shop to shame, as well as design and fabrication practices for our modifications to these machines that pushed the envelope of what is possible. As an example, the raised white blobs on the following are individual carbon atoms on a sample measured in situ in one of these machines, which required vibration levels a bit lower than from the most finely-balanced Vincent engine.

[Linked Image]

It's fair to say that habits and practices developed in my lab over the years are to blame for much of my approach to motorcycle rebuilding, as well as for the 0.001" and 0.0001" threads.

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Quote
The French technicians were wearing lab coats of various colours

Quote
The next week I visited the English company. The technicians all were wearing identical crisp blue lab coats

I believe in times gone past a kind of etiquette in both the colour and length of lab/workshop coats existed in the UK.

The colour served as a sort indication of the skill level, with white being used by aircraft technicians, lab staff as well as doctors. Blue indicated those trained with fitting and machining skills, whilst brown was used by warehouse staff, storemen etc.

Then there was the length of the coat, in the medical profession a long white coat was reserved for senior staff with years of experience, whilst shorter coats were used by medical orderlies.

Whether this colour and length protocol crossed over into other professions and lasted is unknown to me, but based on your decision of choosing ultra-high vacuum machinery, I suspect not.

Quote
the most common tool I saw being used was a file

This story fits well with several ex-school friends who went on to serve as engineering apprentices in Royal Navy dockyards. I'm told that as their first task they were given a file and lump of steel with instructions to form a bolt. The apparent intention was to familiarise them with the ability to make parts whilst at sea with only minimal equipment available.

Last edited by gunner; 01/13/22 1:36 am.

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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Thirty different restaurants in a month, none of which was worse than 'quite nice'. Ah, the French. What's not to love about the national stereotype?
For some strange reason, in the brief period we were there in 2019, there seemed to be a profusion of Italian restaurants.

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Since MMan has so thoroughly hijacked his own thread, who am I to demur?

A couple of decades ago, Prof MMan and I visited the Ducati factory in Bologna for research purposes (it's hard to type that and not laugh).

In an echo of GK's story, above, at 12:00 noon we were ushered to the canteen for lunch. There, managers sat with assembly workers and enjoyed a very good lunch of pasta and vegetables. The beverage of choice, and it would have been churlish of us to refuse, was very good Chianti.

Last edited by NYBSAGUY; 01/12/22 10:23 pm.
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My major accomplishment yesterday was getting the rims packed and the box into the caring and sensitive hands of FedEx to gently cradle its way to Buchanan's. Ideally, without sticking a forklift tang through the box. I could have had it delivered overnight by 8:30am for a mere ~$900, but I'm told haste makes waste so I opted for their standard two-day ground delivery.

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I finally finished the fiddly job of finagling the fender with finesse. If I never have to fit another set of Vincent fenders it will be fine with me.

Although my old main mudguard section came with the FT152 blade reinforcement that goes on the underside, I had bought a replacement in the 1990s, along with the FT151/1 for the rear section. I'll check, but I'm pretty sure I remember a Vincent publication at the time suggesting adding a second reinforcing strip to the main section. So, today I blasted the old one, revealing a copper-ish color that indicates it had been plated at one point in its life.

[Linked Image]

I had to elongate two of the holes slightly to fit the new mudguard, and then I hit it with grey etching primer. For no good reason I'll probably put a coat of aluminum paint on it, although it will be hidden by the chrome one, and both of them will be hidden from view, anyway. First, I'll have to drill the necessary holes in the new one.

[Linked Image]

With the mudguards now removed, the rear end of the bike looks pretty barren. There aren't very many parts attached to it so I'll have to decide whether to remove it now, or wait until I assemble the forks. Unfortunately, either way, I'll have to face the issue of painting before much longer. If I do have a paint booth set up and toxic paint mixed, it probably makes sense to paint all the cycle parts in one fell swoop.

Finally, yesterday I bravely checked FedEx tracking to see if it had been lost or damaged in shipment yet. Miraculously, it hadn't, but at the time I checked it still had to survive another full 24 hours in their hands. This morning tracking showed it on the FedEx truck, out for delivery by the end of the day. Fingers remain crossed.

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I have fit a few fenders to Vincents. Not that I have restored many Vincents. I have one Vincent rear section here that has had at least 5 sets of rear fenders installed. Installed to a point where it would pass my "White Cotton Glove" test. Besides having to pass a visual once over I like to put on a pair of white cotton gloves and run my hands all over all of the surfaces looking for an edge that would catch a thread on the glove. The edges of these fenders are sharp, and I hate cutting myself (I have an adversion to "idiot patches").

I do this because I don't run a restoration shop and my customers are why I do this. When I am out of fenders, and the only set in house are on my rear section, I take them off and send them to the customer. So I have got pretty good at mounting them. That said, MM has got his on in record time.

Some 30 plus years ago, commenting on the effort required to mount new exhaust pipes and fenders to a Vincent, David Holder, son of Matt Holder who bought the Vincent name and business (including all of the drawings, stock and tooling from the failed Harper Engines, Ltd) remarked, " I have all of the tooling, shelves full of product and two expert fitters working for me. One from Velocette and an other from Vincent. It would take the three of them several days, utilyzing all of the tools at hand, and years of experience to perform these jobs to their satisfaction."
Congradulations MM! Mow on to setting up the front fork assembly.

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Originally Posted by John Healy
MM has got his on in record time.
Clearly, I didn't whine and complain nearly enough, because no way was it in record time. Fitting them was like the butterfly explanation of chaos theory -- move the front of the mudguard by ⅛", and holes at the rear, that had been aligned, now would be off by ¼". In different directions. Twist, bend, file, bend some more. Repeat at least 20 times and you're done.

Update: FedEx update shows the rims are now in Buchanan's hands. Well, at least the box is; at this point the condition of the box, and whether the rims are even still in it, remains to be confirmed.

Last edited by Magnetoman; 01/14/22 6:48 pm. Reason: update:
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Quote
Fitting them was like the butterfly explanation of chaos theory -- move the front of the mudguard by ⅛", and holes at the rear, that had been aligned, now would be off by ¼". In different directions. Twist, bend, file, bend some more. Repeat at least 20 times and you're done.

Exactly!

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Although I've been doing other things for the past few days, it's not that nothing has been happening on the Vincent in the meantime. There are several Al knobs and adjusters that will need to be polished so, as an experiment, I put the old mudguard hinges in my "18 pound" tumbler. As a reminder, the hinges looked like the following at the start:

[Linked Image]

The tumbler came with 7 lbs. of what they describe as plastic "lite cutting" media which, as the next photograph shows, only fills the bowl about half way.

[Linked Image]

Although it can be seen in the previous photograph, the next one shows better that the hinges aren't fully submerged in the media.

[Linked Image]

While it could be that the hinges tumble in the tumbler so that all areas of their surfaces abrade, the next photograph, after about 20 hours of operation, shows that this apparently isn't what happens.

[Linked Image]

But, as also can be seen, the media did a great exertion-free (on my part) job of removing the unwanted rough outer surface from much of the hinges.

I ordered some more of the green media to better fill the bowl, as well as more of their "dri shine" polishing media, which is to be used after the green media. I also have a polishing wheel and a range of polishing compounds, but that requires exertion on my part so I'd like the tumbler to do as much of the work as possible.

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