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Hmm, that would take about 220 deg+ if it was lead/tin or 250+ if aluminium based.
I could see bad/dry joints vibrating apart but if the solder was melting then i would think
the engine would be rather stuffed by that stage.
The only other way i could see that happening is if the rotor was sensing exhaust gas flow........

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NickL #868787 01/11/22 9:19 pm
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if you inspect solder joint failures , on pc boards , that are not buried in excessive encapsulation ,
... with enough magnification
you will somtimes see
where current flow across a dry joint
Locally arcs and melts back the solder .
This is usually accompanied by carbon tracks and other evidence of localized overheating .

Sometimes/maybe , it's not the solder joint that has failed but copper lifted from the pc board .
And its hard to tell which came first , the board failure or the solder joint failure.

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You guys are way too kind and must not have spent a much time in the retail end of the British motorcycle industry. Ocasionally over the past 50 odd years doing this stuff I dared to think I had seen everything, and heard every story. The latest was from a dealer who last week asked me if Triumph ever put valve guide seals between the tip of the guide and the head of the valve? That's right in the ports. This was on a Trident. His customer said, "he did the work to the manual." This one raised the bar for the "I think I have seen everything" ledger.

Knowing Norman Hyde probable heard a lot of things about what people have done to Tridents. I shared with him an experience where a customer put the 4 head bolt washers between the head gasket and the cylinder head on the 4 outside cylinder bolts. And it ran!!!! It didn't leak compression!

On one of his American adventures playing tennis at one of three Real Tennis clubs in the US he found his way to Boston. During his visit he asked me if I still had that cylinder head. I don't think he believed me. With head in hand he explained, "Now I know why you people say, If some is good, more is better."

I bet the rest of the motorcycle looked as bad as the solder joints and board. Honest, I timed it by the book!

I have nearly 50,000 electronic ignitions out in the field over the past 35 plus years. Do you think I have heard some stories?

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I have accepted now that the global comment that 'It's always the black box'...............
A similar amount of time around this gear has taught me that.

No matter how 'idiot proof' you make stuff, there is always a better or more determined idiot!

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3 failures for me too, 2 for Paul. Not a good record


Rich
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NickL #869008 01/14/22 7:05 am
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Originally Posted by NickL
the stressing of
the surface mounted components,
I remember having huge problems with gear when aluminium based soldering
became law, some industries were granted exemption such as aerospace.
Unleaded solder was a PITA for many manufacturers large and small.
We have a winner! I never trusted surface mount, can't recall all the times I've had to reheat surface-mount solder joints to solve mystery malfunctions. You put the board into a wave-solder machine or quickly sweep a wide tip past multiple pins and expect perfect solder joints, AIN'T gonna happen!
And, don't get me started on lead-free solder. One can heat the joint until the trace lifts off the board and the solder still doesn't flow properly!


"The Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing, once they've tried everything else" Winston Churchill
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Originally Posted by DavidP
And, don't get me started on lead-free solder. One can heat the joint until the trace lifts off the board and the solder still doesn't flow properly!

Yep, had this myself


I mounted the Tri-Spark the other night. The inital timing mark for the ACW twins could do with a small ammendment. I found I was much closer when selecting the position marked off on the stator plate for the CW bikes, this was using the static timing light method, on the initial mounting spot the timing light didn't come on at all regardless of where the stator was rotated to. It took two more times of repositioning the rotor to get the light to just come on about mid way between the slots.
Like a fool I tried kicking the bike over after the initial setting and nearly broke my foot from the kickback. The ignition was just that far advanced. Probably doesn't help that the bike has some summer grade fuel in the tank and it must be at least 6 months old at best now. Probably more so.. Some fresh fuel for it this weekend!


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

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DavidP #869032 01/14/22 12:11 pm
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Originally Posted by DavidP
We have a winner! I never trusted surface mount, can't recall all the times I've had to reheat surface-mount solder joints to solve mystery malfunctions. You put the board into a wave-solder machine or quickly sweep a wide tip past multiple pins and expect perfect solder joints, AIN'T gonna happen!
And, don't get me started on lead-free solder. One can heat the joint until the trace lifts off the board and the solder still doesn't flow properly!

Yep yet another example of media driven hysteria resulting in politicans fixing the non existant problem by imposing changes for the worse and products that just do not work.
Lead free solder being a prime example
Not hard to make our own sticks bur resin core is a bit beyond the average motorcycle workshop


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I can' tell you how many ignition units (all brands) that I get back for warranty "that failed" that fire right up and do everything they are supposed to do.

Any electronic ignition, and it longevity, is only as good as the installation, and the electrical system it is being used with. Even something like a corroded fuse connection can cause your EI not to work.

batteries are by far the most common cause of electronic ignition problems. They are followed by voltage drops throughout the wiring.

If you have talked to us on the phone about your ignition not working you have heard: "You don't need a new battery! You need a good battery." You need to understand that measuring battery voltage without a load (called and open circuit test) is ABSOLUTELY a meaningless test.

Also measuring voltage at the ignition box meaningless without it being turned on. To make a meaningful test you must create a CIRCUIT. The ignition module is the same as a set of points. When the unit doesn't see rotation of the engine it shuts off - "the points are open" = NO circuit to measure. Unless there is a circuit there is no load, and your voltage measurement is meaningless.

The other mistake, which usually ends up with a burnt up box is changing the wiring from positive ground to negative ground.

To try to prevent changing how the box is wired into the bike's electrical system, Boyer puts the wiring connectors on in a fashion that help prevents swapping connections at the box. When the bike fails to start the installer thinks the wires must be connected wrong. Boyer, and others, install the male and female connectors on the box's wires in a manner aimed at prevent the installer from swapping wires around.
[Linked Image] How not to modify wiring.

Guess what? The customer connected up the wires wrong and cooked the box...

I could go on!

Last edited by John Healy; 01/14/22 3:51 pm.
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It's always the black box John........................................................................




(Except when it isn't eh?)

As most components are now only made as surface mount and through hole stuff is disappearing
we must accept the situation, same as ROHS (leadfree) compliance. It always made me laugh though
when stuff has to be reliable such as in aerospace you can still get exemption. It's like actually
stating 'everyone else will have to accept unreliability'. The goons that pass these laws and
statutes have the IQ of hedgehogs really, and have no experience with the industry.

NickL #869084 01/15/22 12:36 am
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Lead is a neurotoxin .... with documented toxicity going back over a thousand years .
but , guess what ? , Lead poisoning is preventable.

Lead blood levels considered normal in the 70s can knock up to five points off a child's IQ.
a Child's dumbed down IQ translates into a dumbed down adult with a dumbed down earning potential .
nevermind .
...lets have more dumbness please , if it makes soldering easier .

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Teach your kids to not eat pcb's eh?

I wish it was just lead that made people so stupid........................

quinten #869086 01/15/22 12:49 am
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Originally Posted by quinten
Lead is a neurotoxin .... with documented toxicity going back over a thousand years .
but , guess what ? , Lead poisoning is preventable.

Lead blood levels considered normal in the 70s can knock up to five points off a child's IQ.
a Child's dumbed down IQ translates into a dumbed down adult with a dumbed down earning potential .
nevermind .
...lets have more dumbness please , if it makes soldering easier .
You are trying to make a case that lead electrical soldier used for electronics wiring is related to the massive amount of lead paint, lead pipes and lead used to soldier copper pipe used for drinking water in the past .The brains poisoned by lead sent men to the moon in space ships.......You should be more concerned with the air pollution of vintage bikes with carbs dripping gasoline .....lol


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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Originally Posted by quinten
Lead is a neurotoxin .... with documented toxicity going back over a thousand years .
but , guess what ? , Lead poisoning is preventable.

Lead blood levels considered normal in the 70s can knock up to five points off a child's IQ.
a Child's dumbed down IQ translates into a dumbed down adult with a dumbed down earning potential .
nevermind .
...lets have more dumbness please , if it makes soldering easier .
You are trying to make a case that lead electrical soldier used for electronics wiring is related to the massive amount of lead paint, lead pipes and lead used to soldier copper pipe used for drinking water in the past .The brains poisoned by lead sent men to the moon in space ships.......You should be more concerned with the air pollution of vintage bikes with carbs dripping gasoline .....lol
dont worry then
just throw your old broken appliances down the closest ditch , back of the house and pretend
the bits are not leaching back into your well water .
let that be a Legacy for the grandchildren

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Originally Posted by quinten
Lead is a neurotoxin .... with documented toxicity going back over a thousand years .
but , guess what ? , Lead poisoning is preventable.
Yes, and it is prevented in this case by a proper exhaust fan at soldering stations in most professional applications ( and at my house.)
We're not dealing with plumbing here!


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Originally Posted by John Healy
I can' tell you how many ignition units (all brands) that I get back for warranty "that failed" that fire right up and do everything they are supposed to do.

Any electronic ignition, and it longevity, is only as good as the installation, and the electrical system it is being used with. Even something like a corroded fuse connection can cause your EI not to work.

batteries are by far the most common cause of electronic ignition problems. They are followed by voltage drops throughout the wiring.

If you have talked to us on the phone about your ignition not working you have heard: "You don't need a new battery! You need a good battery." You need to understand that measuring battery voltage without a load (called and open circuit test) is ABSOLUTELY a meaningless test.

Also measuring voltage at the ignition box meaningless without it being turned on. To make a meaningful test you must create a CIRCUIT. The ignition module is the same as a set of points. When the unit doesn't see rotation of the engine it shuts off - "the points are open" = NO circuit to measure. Unless there is a circuit there is no load, and your voltage measurement is meaningless.

The other mistake, which usually ends up with a burnt up box is changing the wiring from positive ground to negative ground.

To try to prevent changing how the box is wired into the bike's electrical system, Boyer puts the wiring connectors on in a fashion that help prevents swapping connections at the box. When the bike fails to start the installer thinks the wires must be connected wrong. Boyer, and others, install the male and female connectors on the box's wires in a manner aimed at prevent the installer from swapping wires around.
[Linked Image] How not to modify wiring.

Guess what? The customer connected up the wires wrong and cooked the box...

I could go on!
AGREED! I have seen posters here complain that the wires on their Pazon are not long enough because they tried to route them up over the top of the frame instead of as the original points wires ran. Another tried to point his strobe at the red dot on the rotor to time it. But, the most common point of failure is having the wires from the pickup reversed.
Still, the solution is not putting the amplifier circuitry in a hostile environment just to make installation easier.


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Originally Posted by quinten
Lead is a neurotoxin .... with documented toxicity going back over a thousand years .
but , guess what ? , Lead poisoning is preventable.

Lead blood levels considered normal in the 70s can knock up to five points off a child's IQ.
That's soluble lead oxides rather than metallic lead, isn't it?

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Originally Posted by quinten
Lead is a neurotoxin .... with documented toxicity going back over a thousand years .
but , guess what ? , Lead poisoning is preventable.

Lead blood levels considered normal in the 70s can knock up to five points off a child's IQ.
a Child's dumbed down IQ translates into a dumbed down adult with a dumbed down earning potential .
nevermind .
...lets have more dumbness please , if it makes soldering easier .

Yes it is toxic
And gues what ever single metal is toxic as are their sulfates , sulfides, oxides, chlorides etc etc etc.

However lead is not soulable in a human digestive tract
The expirment of injecteg a sinker then recovering it & weighing it had been done for ages till ethics committees banned it .
Hunter have been using lead shot amost from the invention of gunpowder particularly for shooting game bird which are then eaten, usually with some of the shot remaining in the bird because it is near impossible to get it all out .
Lead fumes can also not get from your lungs to your blood stream in any form
Lead oxides are a different matter
However while they are a big problem for a developing brain, they post little to no problems to adults
The prime medical problem ( in both cases ) is the Pb binds onto heamobloben which renders them incapable of transporting oxygen.
And these compromised heamoglobens remain in the blood stream till the kidneys finally idntify them as being bad and send then to the baldder for removal .
So in adults, severe lead contamination leads to anemia .
And it is excreated through your urine unlike some thing like Zinc which accumulated in your kidneys as does calcium for that matter and we are all familiar with calcium posionong , commonly called kidney stones .

I used reduced heamogloben & lead in urine as screening tests for the 500 lead workers I monitored monthy for 4 years .
When they got too leaded they got sent to either the steel scrap yard or the aluminium scrap yard or the battery factory .
None of the battery makers ever picked up enough lead to require detoxing or even requiring a full blood lead determination.
All of the contaminated workers came from the lead scrap yard or the furnace mouth where they were exposed to oxides , usually from bad hygine so they injested dust from ther clothing or hands.

The whole lead hysteria stems from the fuel crisis of the 70's when Europe wanted to use poor quality crude because Arab crude prices had gone through the roof & supply was squeezed
However the crude made bad petrol, much of which could not be atomised or burned in an IC engine and thus the exhaust containe very high levels of unburned hydrocarbons ( also quite toxic )
So the answer was to put an after burner , called a catalytic converter in your echaust to durn the petrol that your engine can not burn but you still paid good money for.
Now Joe public was never going to wear that so the spin doctors turned an economic problem into a health problem
The of course you bring kids into it to get the irratinal emotions kicking in.

The fact that it was really a cast of Alaskin elephant repellant got overlooked.
The prime source of injestable lead is and always has been minning followed by paint followed by cheap white glaze ( includes spark plugs ) and of course cosmetics but from memory lead was removed from face powder long before it was removed from petrol

Now removing lead oxides from paint was a good idea but of course when you find a good thing then stick to it and every palce where any kind of lead was used became public enemy No 1 regardless of weather that lead could ever become injestable or not.
And the oxides on the top of lead pots is a coumpound oxide contain both lead & tin & some of the other alloying elements so the lead is bound tight and not available to the body even if you ate it.

As for dropping 5 points, you really mean scoreing 5 points less in a test that scored me 20 points lower because on my dyslexia .
As for making dumb adults you can't go past the www where millions of supposedly well educated high scoring IQ people slavishly follow blithering idiots whu usually have no idea what they are posting about called "social influencers "

And time & time again then biggest influiencer on the earning capacity of a person is directly linked to their parents .
OR to put it another way the best way to get rich is to have rich parents .

Geting back to solder
Zero data to show any heath problems related to the use of lead tin solder & I would hazard a guess thatthe fluxes were a bigger health problem than the chemstry of the solder .
Bannng lead colder is a stupid as banning leaded bronzes or brasses which I have no doubt is the next on the hit list .


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quinten #869112 01/15/22 11:54 am
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Originally Posted by quinten
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Originally Posted by quinten
Lead is a neurotoxin .... with documented toxicity going back over a thousand years .
but , guess what ? , Lead poisoning is preventable.

Lead blood levels considered normal in the 70s can knock up to five points off a child's IQ.
a Child's dumbed down IQ translates into a dumbed down adult with a dumbed down earning potential .
nevermind .
...lets have more dumbness please , if it makes soldering easier .
You are trying to make a case that lead electrical soldier used for electronics wiring is related to the massive amount of lead paint, lead pipes and lead used to soldier copper pipe used for drinking water in the past .The brains poisoned by lead sent men to the moon in space ships.......You should be more concerned with the air pollution of vintage bikes with carbs dripping gasoline .....lol
dont worry then
just throw your old broken appliances down the closest ditch , back of the house and pretend
the bits are not leaching back into your well water .
let that be a Legacy for the grandchildren
This discussion on lead solder is BS anyways... you can buy rosin core tin/lead or larger diameter solid core solder right on Amazon , right now ...
Don't need for the sky is falling scenario....The trash found in drainage swales is from city/suburban types doing drive by garbage runs..No trash pick up here, we haul it to the landfill recycle facility and get to actually see the process in action...There's also an electronics waste drop off available.


79 T140D, 89 Honda 650NT ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons
"I don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
The trash found in drainage swales is from city/suburban types doing drive by garbage runs..
Well, since we're already way off-topic...
We have the same problem here. Every now and then, somebody cleaning up the garden or doing home renovations will dump a trailer-load of rubbish in or next to one of our gateways. Very occasionally, it will be a tip-truck load, which is a bit more of a hassle. Fortunately, it's very rarely asbestos fibre-board, and the council has been quite good at sending out a crew to clean it up. One or two people being too lazy or stingy to take their rubbish to the tip can cause a lot of annoyance and expense, though.

We did come out ahead a couple of times, though. One time there was a truck-load of mulch, which came in handy, and on another occasion there was a pair of rear backhoe tyres with 50% tread.


Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
So the answer was to put an after burner , called a catalytic converter in your echaust to durn the petrol that your engine can not burn but you still paid good money for.
I don't know if photochemical smog was as much of a problem in Europe as in the Los Angeles basin, but tetra-ethyl lead poisons the Pt in catalytic converters, so removing the TEL is one solution to that. One of the regulars on the Brit-Iron mailing list was a retired medical researcher, and he claimed that the lead levels near busy roads had a major reduction after the switch to unleaded fuels.

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