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Perhaps one might again look to Neway and examine their
Gizmatic valve refacer. Or am I missing something?

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Rohan #867298 12/25/21 9:46 pm
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[quote=Rohan]Hereabouts, a lot of (smaller) valves are made from cut down Nissan valve blanks.
At about $2 each, (stainless, in bulk) this makes them decidedly economical.
Although doesn't cover bigger valves, so ex-diesel valves is a good suggestion.
Would they be stainless though ? Sorta needed for unleaded ...

Halifax is likely to have some decent engine shops. ?
It may be cheaper to just mail them, and wear the postage cost ?
Unless you have lots of valves to do ?

I realise this may not be so DIY.
But if it costs $x to get them done, and $3x to DIY,
then just farming them out makes a lot of sense, $ wise

??[/quote

The Motorcyclist Workshop by Radco.
It is all over the web now days as a digital download
Worth reading, particularly the sections about reworking old worn out car parts to fabricate parts for your motorcycle .
It makes on realize just how lazy and proflicte we have become .

Inlet valves are generally made from a type of stainless, steel, generally a high nickel low chrome variety
Exhaust valves are often nickle/silicon steels or even titanium


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Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
It makes on realize just how lazy and proflicte we have become .

Spilling ??

Aye, axe sales should have dried up by now,
if Grandpas axe had been properly cared for ...

Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
or even titanium

Not too many production engines would have used these, until VERY recently ?
And they are not entirely a magic bullet.

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Been using titanium alloys and titanium steels in aero engines for ages.
A problem in the scrap system because Ti is a controlled impurity in most grades of domestic steels and Fe is a scheduled impurity in a lot of titanium allots


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Hmmm, my words just disappeared. !
_______________________________

Aye. But Ti in jet engines and Ti in pistoned engined thingies are in a different league. !

The local scrapyard a good while back had a pair of afterburners for an F111 on a pallet or 3.
When I asked what they were worth, he said about $20k in scrap.
They were a bit more when new ...

Ti valves in say Manxes don't have an entirely blemish-free record ?
They can still 'drop-in', and do as much damage as their steel counterparts.
In 4 valve thingies as lightweight small components, they have more success.

We might also mention Ti conrods.
These were rumoured to be the magic secret to success for the Works Norton Team
Think Manxes at the IoM, early 1950s.
The rods then - still early 1950s - were rumoured to have cost more than the bike.
Which were worth more than a house was at the time.
This came to light when Vanwall built an 8 cyl engine based on Manx top ends.
The bill for the conrods was said to be astronomical ...

We seem to have side-tracked a bit .
Normal service will be resumed as soon as ...

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The dremmel front bearing housing is a loose fit on some models, I found a good tip on Frank Fords guitar repair site, remove the front bearing , wrap the OD with teflon plumbers tape, use enough to snug the fit, it will help eliminate chatter and makes the tool much more pleasant to use.


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I like the look of that Neway tool but i really can't justify the expense for the
amount of jobs i do, by the time i got it, it would be over a grand Aud, that represents
a fair amount of new valves.

Rohan #867358 12/27/21 3:32 am
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Originally Posted by Rohan
Hmmm, my words just disappeared. !
_______________________________

Aye. But Ti in jet engines and Ti in pistoned engined thingies are in a different league. !

The local scrapyard a good while back had a pair of afterburners for an F111 on a pallet or 3.
When I asked what they were worth, he said about $20k in scrap.
They were a bit more when new ...

Ti valves in say Manxes don't have an entirely blemish-free record ?
They can still 'drop-in', and do as much damage as their steel counterparts.
In 4 valve thingies as lightweight small components, they have more success.

We seem to have side-tracked a bit .
Normal service will be resumed as soon as ...

They started to play with titanium alloy valves back in WWII along with Nickle valves and a pile of other alloys.
The problem is running at yellow hot allows the grains to grow and the pounding when closing actually changes orientation.
Once they get to a particular grain size the necks stretch then fall off , not fun a 30,000 feet.

The big problem was chemical control of the original melt which was not really over come till spectrual chemistry became reliable .
The "bad" things that happend with the use of Ti was generally because it was a direct substitute for steel part & not engineered for Ti from the start .


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There is a way to get jobs Concentric in a 3 jaw chuck with reasonable repeatability. A piece of round bar is put in the 3 jaw chuck, then drilled and reamed to the valve stem size, the round bar is then marked so its relationship to the no.1 jaw is repeatable, the round bar can then be slit or tapped for a grub screw. This is a poor boy collet chuck, handy if you dont have real collet chucks.


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Originally Posted by Chip H
Too much for a suction cup lapping ?
That's pretty much all I've ever done, but I've never had to clean up seriously worn valve seats. Takes forever when the cup keeps slipping off the valve head.

Originally Posted by AngloBike
I am no machinist but I always relied on suction and paste
However - on you tube I have seen guys use a cordless drill with the valve in the guide and the drill gripping the stem
I also do this, using a short piece of fuel line to hold the valve stem. I only use the drill motor for the coarse grinding paste and switch to the suction cup for fine paste.
Maybe if I hit the Lotto I'll actually pay somebody for a good 3-angle valve job.
Unfortunately the last time I let someone else grind valves for me the moron also shaved the head on my Trident. Next thing I know I have valves kissing the pistons!


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Talking of grinding valves I watched a chap in a shop in the 80s and he had a thing that went in an electric drill with a rubber sucker. The rubber sucker oscillated back and forth and saved wearing your hands out. I read that turning continuously in one direction doesn't work properly.

Dave

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"I read that turning continuously in one direction doesn't work properly." Thats what i was told.


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Lapping valves in does not have the same effect as recutting seats and
refacing valves. Normally excessive lapping will sink the seats and/or
put ridges in the valves.

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Originally Posted by koncretekid
Thanks to all. It, as usual, comes down to having better tools. As I am in the Southwest end of Nova Scotia now and at least until March, there are no decent machine shops within 150 miles, and no tool suppliers within 200 miles. A search of Kijiji (like craigslist) brings up no used tools of any consequence, so I'm out of luck finding a real valve grinding set or even tool post holders. Can't even find good tool bits anywhere. But clearly, depending on a well used 3-jaw chuck and Dremel standard stones (I looked in hardware store today which sold Dremel bits, but no good fine stones) is not going to be good enough. Chaterlea25 gave me a good possibility of using what I have. Come to think of it, I do have some #3 Morse taper collets for my mill, which may fit the lathe. I'll give them a try.
Tom

Did you find out what taper is in the headstock? Even if it’s not MT3, buying another individual collets would probably be the cheapest way out. A decent, preferably new carbide cutter and it should be fine. I was moaning about narrowing an outer race for a roller bearing and one of the locals said just chuck it in the lathe and cut it. Worked like a charm.
I don’t think you’ll get the results you want most of the time with a Dremel unless you are luckier than I am. I tried using a laminate trimmer… same deal, just a little bigger. Wasn’t getting the same results as a little Dumore tool post grinder (bearing do play a role) As previously mentioned, having a way to true up the stone with a diamond is a must.
Another option might be to buy some soft jaws for the 3 jaw chuck and bore them to fit something like a 5c collet, but that’s more farting around.

You can watch this to get an idea of how to mount and use the diamond. You can just skip to 6:55 or so, but his videos are worth watching. You’ll have to excuse him for mentioning the damp towel.


Last edited by Cyborg; 12/29/21 4:13 am.
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I realized that my 9x20 Taiwanese lathe had a #3 Morse taper in the headstock into which I could mount the collet holder I had for my mill-drill. The result was much better than my three jaw chuck and my POS 4 jaw chuck but still shows a runout of plus-or-minus .001". Until I get a real 4 jaw chuck (anyone had any luck with the Accusize ones sold on Amazon?), that's the best I can do.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

I then made a proper fixture to hold my Dremel securely in the tool post holder using ideas from Youtube video, but with a better way to secure both ends of the Dremel tool as shown here:

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

So I chucked up another used valve, bought a new stone for the Dremel and tried again. I found that the sanding drums ground a bit better than the stone, but still not very good.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

In conclusion, without a proper tool post grinder and the proper stones with a way to dress them, I'm not going to be able to get the valves ground to my satisfaction, except for possibly a "beater" bike that I'm now building (BSA 250) for myself.

I generally build or rebuild at least one more bike per year, last year I built/rebuilt 3 including 2 twins and used the services of a very capable machinist/ engine builder who is located about a 3 hour drive from me. But at $250 a pop for twins, I wanted to be able to do my own valve jobs. The other issue with using an outside shop is timing. Three hours to deliver the parts and another three to retrieve them, and fitting into their schedule can become a problem.

I will say that for most of the old Brit bikes that I have rebuilt, the valves are pretty well shot, so the best bet is to buy new oversize valves so regrinding them will not be an issue, if my Neway valve seat cutting tool works well enough.

Tom

P.S. Just watched that video, and it is apparent that very fine grinding stones are going to be required as well as the tool post grinder to get a good finish. I was also wondering if Tubalcan gave any thought to where those sparks were going? Got any cutting oil in your shop vac by any chance?

Last edited by koncretekid; 12/29/21 12:35 pm.

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Just wondering if you could polish out the rough finish using a strip of emery tape in a similar way that big ends get polished?

I guess you would need to spin the valve on the lathe and then apply the emery tape. Not sure whether you could just apply by hand or use some kind of fixture. The key would be to use finer and finer emery tape until its done.

Looking on YouTube there's a video showing how to refinish valves using just a scotchbrite to clean off carbon and then 600 to 3000 wet and dry paper to remove pitting, all the time the valve is held in a hand drill and the other hand holds the wet and dry paper.

Might be worth a try but I don't know whether the seats will end up Concentric.

[video:youtube]
[/video]

Last edited by gunner; 12/29/21 12:37 pm.

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I often wonder if my shopvac will take off like a rocket, but so far no explosions or flame throwing incidents. Did you check the runout on the stem close to the collet? Maybe it’s the valve that’s off?
Perhaps chaterlea25’s sleeve in the 4 jaw wins out. It probably is the best idea given the situation. Even with a shitty 4 jaw, you “should” be able to dial it in.

An MT3 collet would likely be more accurate than an MT3 collet holder with an ER given where they are made?

The finish on the valve resembles chatter marks, so maybe a combination of the stone, bearings and runout?

And give the cutting them with a carbide insert a try.

Last edited by Cyborg; 12/29/21 3:20 pm.
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Originally Posted by Cyborg
I often wonder if my shopvac will take off like a rocket, but so far no explosions or flame throwing incidents. Did you check the runout on the stem close to the collet? Maybe it’s the valve that’s off?
Perhaps chaterlea25’s sleeve in the 4 jaw wins out. It probably is the best idea given the situation. Even with a shitty 4 jaw, you “should” be able to dial it in.

An MT3 collet would likely be more accurate than an MT3 collet holder with an ER given where they are made?

The finish on the valve resembles chatter marks, so maybe a combination of the stone, bearings and runout?

And give the cutting them with a carbide insert a try.

Yes, I checked the runout close to the collet using a new valve. With the homemade collet in the POS 4-jaw, I dialed it in at the collet which was only 1/2" aluminum, but then the head of the valve was out by about .005", as the jaws must have tilted. They are only bolted in from the back.

So then I tried polishing up the valves that I ground with the Dremel as gunner suggested, using a rubber sanding block and 400 grit paper. Definitely better, but could still see the chatter marks.

Lastly, I replaced the Dremel with a carbide tool bit as you suggested, and was pleased that although not perfect, at least there were no chatter marks showing. I think with a bit of sanding, they would be good to go. Here is a photo showing the 3 methods:

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

The one on the left is left just as cut with the carbide tool (and not a new tool bit as I have exhausted my supply), the middle one is an old stainless steel exhaust valve cut with the carbide and then just touched lightly with the sandpaper. The one on the right is one that I ground with the Dremel and then sanded. You can still see the chatter marks left by the Dremel.

The compound slide on my mill is in need of repair as two of the three adjustment screws that tighten the gibs are stripped. They are something like 2mm diameter so I'll have to get some oversize ones and re-tap to take out the slop. I think the carbide (or ceramic as Chatterlea suggested) with a bit of sanding should do the trick.

Tom


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Luckily, I have a toolpost grinder, because with the ~0.005" runout of my Dremel's bearings there's no way it would be able to produce an acceptable valve face irrespective of how well the stem was centered in the lathe.

[Linked Image]

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I’m the last guy on the list who should be recommending which insert to use. Probably best to get some advice from someone who knows. Some come with recommended speeds that would cause my lathe to explode. I’m in the same boat as far as carbide inserts go. I manage to destroy them at an alarming rate. Something to be said for grinding tool steel which works better in some cases.
There is a good video on regrinding inserts, Stefan’s videos are also worth watching (if you haven’t seen them) along with Abomb, and TOT.
Unfortunately I don’t have a surface grinder.


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Hi Tom
When you had the valve in the collet holder and MT3 taper in the lathe did you check the run out near the collet?
I have seen new valves where the outer edge of the head where you show the dial gauge tip running are not final finished true to the stem or
cut seat. try turning the collet in the holder or the taper in the headstock to see if you can get a better result

John

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Originally Posted by chaterlea25
Hi Tom
When you had the valve in the collet holder and MT3 taper in the lathe did you check the run out near the collet?
I have seen new valves where the outer edge of the head where you show the dial gauge tip running are not final finished true to the stem or
cut seat. try turning the collet in the holder or the taper in the headstock to see if you can get a better result

John

Yes, I did that. I was able to get the runout down to plus or minus .001 by rotating the holder in the bore of the lathe. And with a new valve or even a good used intake valve, the head of the valve was found to be the same.

Originally Posted by Tom A65LR
Perhaps one might again look to Neway and examine their
Gizmatic valve refacer. Or am I missing something?

When I saw this post from Tom A65LR (that could be my handle), I thought it was a joke. But it's not. These devices look every bit as good as the Neway seat refacing tool.

But we could make our own:


Or we could just do as "Indian Bill" does here:


Tom


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