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Cyborg #866787 12/19/21 3:15 pm
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Ken, before you commit to more holes, and at the risk of saying what you already know, check with DavidD with regard to holes in the correct (ie not standard) place.
My (very) dim memory recalls a discussion somewhere around the original dimensions not being braking efficency optimal.
Apologies in advance if this is actually wild imagination........

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Cyborg #866790 12/19/21 4:02 pm
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Thanks… will do. I need to do some digging on that subject. I don’t recall any changes to location, just something to the effect that originally they are all on the same bolt circle? I do have the loan of a jig that was used to make a modified version of the brake plates. They have some differences, but think the hole locations are identical. Don’t know if I’ll use the jig. With a rotary table and DRO, it is probably just as easy to drill them without it. I’ll just bore the axle holes and take a small cut of the mating surfaces etc for now. Maybe mount them on a mandrel and clean up the OD.

Cyborg #866792 12/19/21 4:13 pm
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I don't have any comment to make, other than I'm very much enjoying your posts.

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Cyborg #866805 12/19/21 7:02 pm
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Thanks MM.

I did encounter something I don’t quite understand. After enlarging the axle hole with the boring head and before I reamed it, I checked it with a Mitutoyo bore gauge. I was surprised how shitty the bore turned out. The material cuts nicely and there wasn’t any chatter. Feed and speed seemed fine. It’s one of those dreaded cheap boring heads with the questionable cutters. I’ll have to go back and check the angle of the cutter. There isn’t a flat to align it, so maybe off? Although…if it was off, the hole would have been consistently shitty all the way through? As far as the plate goes, it doesn’t matter because the reamer cleaned it up although just barely. So next time will leave more meat for the reamer to clean up. Yesterday, I learned that I “must” have a proper boring head and a bench micrometer is on my Xmas wish list. In spite of the boring head (or my inability to figure out what or who caused the problem, it was a good day, so on to the front ones.

I have used the same boring head in the past with decent results, so maybe missing something. The fronts give me 2 more opportunities to figure it out. For this job it doesn’t really matter, but do need to sort it out. It wasn’t out by miles, but it shouldn’t be out at all.

Cyborg #866806 12/19/21 7:05 pm
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And now for something completely different…

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]D06DBE51-4441-4ADD-B368-3F7103970AAA by First Last, on Flickr

Cyborg #866821 12/19/21 10:26 pm
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Just figured out that if you remove the gob of crap that welded itself onto the boring bar and hit it with a diamond hone a couple of times it works better. Who’d have thought? And… like everything else in life, things go smoother with a bit of lube. These castings do seem kind of chewy. Axle bore was straight and round even before the reamer went through.

Cyborg #866837 12/20/21 8:51 am
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Would honing the axle bore work better? I bet that's what MM would have done with his beloved Sunnen.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
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Cyborg #866846 12/20/21 12:46 pm
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Blimey Ken, you have just joined some dots up by posting that article.
I thought the timing side image looked 'familiar' and going back to the previous thread about the Ebay picador race bike confirmed it.
The engine in the article is the same engine in the Ebay listing, shape and non-standard openings of the timing cover confirm its the same engine, so Trevor (Smith) got the engine from Trevor (Jackson)!! which all goes to confirm some of the history related text within the listing.
The robust accuracy of the article is a little suspect as the carbs pictured are TTs not GPs.
I wouldn't care to put all that power sprint loading through an early Norton box though, the mainshaft will bend like a banana without an outrigger bearing!

gunner #866861 12/20/21 4:28 pm
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Originally Posted by gunner
Would honing the axle bore work better? I bet that's what MM would have done with his beloved Sunnen.

Perhaps, but I think a decent reamer is up to the task for this situation. The main reason I’m obsessing about the bore is that it’s used as the datum. A mandrel will be installed into the bore and then the OD of the plate can be machined along with the area that runs around the OD of the drum. Then the axle bore can be used to set it back up in the mill and turn the inside of the axle boss.
I’ve decided to use the jig to locate the other holes ( brake cam, shoe pivots, anchor pin, and hole/screws for the speedo drive. The jig is also centralized using the axle bore….
The screens for the air scoops are on order and they can be used to determine where the air scoop screws go. The remaining challenge will be figuring out how much to machine off the faces of the shoe pivots, brake came and axle bore bosses. Will need to cobble together a hub/axle/drum/spoke flange assembly. Haven’t charted out the process yet, but it may involve playdough.

Other than fretting about a straight bore that is a snug fit on the mandrel, I don’t think the bore finish matters much. Some folks enlarge the axle bore holes in the steel plates so the shoes can be centralized. As in clamp on the brake and then tighten the nuts.

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Originally Posted by Twin Pot Phil
Blimey Ken, you have just joined some dots up by posting that article.
I thought the timing side image looked 'familiar' and going back to the previous thread about the Ebay picador race bike confirmed it.
The engine in the article is the same engine in the Ebay listing, shape and non-standard openings of the timing cover confirm its the same engine, so Trevor (Smith) got the engine from Trevor (Jackson)!! which all goes to confirm some of the history related text within the listing.
The robust accuracy of the article is a little suspect as the carbs pictured are TTs not GPs.
I wouldn't care to put all that power sprint loading through an early Norton box though, the mainshaft will bend like a banana without an outrigger bearing!

That is an interesting bit of history. Certainly explains the timing chest welding!

Ps… yes I would say they are TT’s and I’d wager they are 32mm.

Last edited by Cyborg; 12/21/21 2:54 am.
Cyborg #866999 12/22/21 3:40 am
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As mentioned previously, decided to use the jig… although made for slightly different brake plates, the shoe pivots, cam, anchor, and speedo drive are all in the same location as the original version. Made up some centre punches so they are a snug fit in the holes. Not sure why, but heat treated them even though they are just being used on aluminum. Just for sport I guess. The fellow that made the jig, is the same fellow that made the AJS V4 and the Velocette Roarer, so he knows how to make these types of things.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]9B2F6037-E1CA-4776-8F2C-740D29C54A8A by First Last, on Flickr

Made a mandrel from a knackered axle. Turned it down to .750”, so it can be held in a collet mounted in the lathe. The front plates need the OD cleaned up and machined so it matches the drum. The front plates wrap around the edge of the drum to help keep water out. The rear plates are smaller and beveled so the fit into the ID of the drum.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]0C2B8B88-C493-479C-9E3F-9C7B4DB7EBB9 by First Last, on Flickr

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Cyborg #867108 12/23/21 2:55 pm
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This process created some interesting noises. There is a journeyman machinist across the street and I’m sure he was absolutely horrified.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]38ACB7CC-A96D-48AC-8170-AFB598EE22C5 by First Last, on Flickr

Cyborg #867362 12/27/21 10:56 am
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I have a feeling that Trevor Southwell (Clevtrev) found that the pivot centre of the brake cam should be about 1mm further out from the axle centre point than the factory measurement.

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Originally Posted by hardarser
I have a feeling that Trevor Southwell (Clevtrev) found that the pivot centre of the brake cam should be about 1mm further out from the axle centre point than the factory measurement.

Much appreciated. If so, that may already be incorporated into the jig. I’ll find out. I also have Trevor’s email address, so I’ll check with him. Nice fellow… he helped me with some of the dimensions for this which saved a bunch of time. (Plus help from davidd)
I haven’t bored the holes for the brake cams yet…. waiting for bushings.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]CEB36B28-3574-4159-B88F-951BEE1F36CA by First Last, on Flickr

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Originally Posted by hardarser
I have a feeling that Trevor Southwell (Clevtrev) found that the pivot centre of the brake cam should be about 1mm further out from the axle centre point than the factory measurement.

Your feeling was accurate, but it sounds like moving the pin isn’t the end of the story. Apparently the same feeling Phil was having in the post 866787. Guess I didn’t do enough digging.

Edit… that’s an interesting rabbit hole you guys sent me down. After doing a bit of reading, I don’t know how much of anything I would gain by moving the cam or making it so the pins float. I’m using shoes from Neal, so much more rigid, plus they will be turned before installation and centred. That said, I’ll continue digging.

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Cyborg #867397 12/27/21 9:48 pm
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Then the advice is "DIG BEFORE YOU DRILL". Happy New Year to all from Australia.

Cyborg #867466 12/28/21 6:15 pm
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And a happy new year to you too.

I think I have dug far enough.. For my situation I don’t think it is worth modifying them and I’ll stick with the stock geometry. With the alloy plates the pivots should stay where I put them and with Neal’s shoes, braking performance should be much better than stock. Unfortunately it is unlikely that I will wear the shoes down to the point where things start to go south… but should that occur, it’s easy enough to pop the wheel out and turn the shoes again. Of course this is assuming I have a relatively clear picture of what’s going on in there.

Cyborg #867468 12/28/21 6:20 pm
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Still waiting for my seals to arrive, but in the meantime, I made a seal protector so the lip doesn’t get damaged by the step in the stem.



[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]DE57B8AB-FB51-430A-8F58-76F7ABB6B10D by First Last, on Flickr


[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]B6C7CD7A-86D3-4806-85C9-D61B2F57F445 by First Last, on Flickr

Cyborg #867690 12/31/21 12:45 pm
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Originally Posted by Cyborg
Edit… that’s an interesting rabbit hole you guys sent me down.

Truly sorry if I wasted your time, I did say my stuff came from a vague memory (which these days is even vaguer than it was!!), trouble is over the years I have passed over so much that counts as "must remember this stuff for the future" that now the 'latest stuff' bumps out the previous stuff - trouble is that I don't realise it's been bumped until I try to use it! Oh the joy of older age......not.

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Originally Posted by Twin Pot Phil
Originally Posted by Cyborg
Edit… that’s an interesting rabbit hole you guys sent me down.

Truly sorry if I wasted your time, I did say my stuff came from a vague memory (which these days is even vaguer than it was!!), trouble is over the years I have passed over so much that counts as "must remember this stuff for the future" that now the 'latest stuff' bumps out the previous stuff - trouble is that I don't realise it's been bumped until I try to use it! Oh the joy of older age......not.

Not at all, I really appreciate the feedback and suggestions. A rabbit hole in the sense that there are, as usual, lots of different opinions. I did some reading and some of the information I was aware of, but learned lots. Seems the jury is still out on some of it. Allowing the pivots to either float a tiny bit or modified to shift under heavy pressure are two of the mods. Not something I want to do with the alloy plates. The alloy plates themselves eliminate a few of the problems, so I just figured for street use, no mods necessary. Adding Neals shoes will make a big difference so I fully expect the braking to be quite good. By the way… I just ordered some for the rear. Was initially going to use relined stock ones, but since I’m only using one drum on the rear…. anyway the shoes have actually dropped in price because Neal has recovered his development costs. Shipping to Canada seams to be a bit of a dogs breakfast at the moment, but expect it to be sorted out next week. Worth contacting him and he’ll send you a price list etc. Always good to have another source for spares… and valued opinions.

Cyborg #867696 12/31/21 3:11 pm
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Here’s one for you Phil. Probably a little too sedate for your liking. David sent it to me a while back when I was moaning about the V11 Sport getting heavier every day.
It’s nice to see one that isn’t the cookie cutter variety. I have a bit of trouble getting past the discs on the front. I used CBX 550 brakes on the Comet and that’s about as modern looking as I can go.
In any event, I think it’s well done.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]16DA3685-C451-4585-B945-BD133EA30D07 by First Last, on Flickr

Last edited by Cyborg; 12/31/21 3:13 pm.
Cyborg #867738 12/31/21 10:20 pm
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Phew, glad I came out of that unscathed!!

Thanks for that, not too sedate at all.
Nice bike.
No problem with the front end (and the electrics), while upgrading I could not get past using those 'orrible' carbs these days, Mics are a far better solution. Needs a short top link as well for a serious hustle, BTW.

Cyborg #868248 01/05/22 9:04 pm
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This morning’s project. Sprocket adapter. Not a lot of room for error so wasn’t really happy about using an import rotary table. Dividing head in the vertical position is too tall. Drilled and reamed the holes 3% and they actually line up!


[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]32CB4EEC-0BDE-41E9-A1F2-EDF661F2314C by First Last, on Flickr

Cyborg #868478 01/08/22 4:17 pm
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Modified the chuck so when it comes time to narrow the adapter, both ends will be parallel. The centre needs to be bored out to fit the hub. Then the adapter can be bolted to the hub and the flange for the sprocket can be machined. Hopefully it all goes well because there is a bunch of time invested in this thing. Probably a hours job for a journeyman where it takes me days.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]5FC55133-4600-4295-88EB-F405E7045229 by First Last, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]526D6ECE-9D3A-4B2F-8FFC-6F374E9230B4 by First Last, on Flickr



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Cyborg #868768 01/11/22 5:53 pm
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Eejitotic flange shaping device.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]E90FCCFB-BFE7-4149-A983-9765FF84BF5A by First Last, on Flickr

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