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Originally Posted by Hugh Jörgen


Why does it not surprise me that you chose that one? I was thinking more along the lines of the cow trebuchet, not that it make any more sense.

More on oval bearing bores…. wonder if these are oval. Can’t recall who’s engine it is… or should I say was. Don’t know what caused it. The cases are reasonably robust ….. as evidenced by Alp’s success. The cylinder stud peeking through may be a clue…. the cylinder wanted to part company with the case complements of a wayward connecting rod?

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]ADE4F436-88E0-4C44-ABB1-E5B4E9A186DC by First Last, on Flickr

Last edited by Cyborg; 12/06/21 7:26 pm.
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Cyborg #865462 12/06/21 7:50 pm
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Don’t know what caused it.

One clue might be the use of what appears to be a green garden hose in the oil supply.

I use exactly the same type of hose in my garden for watering the plants in the summer, the hose gets kinked very easily and despite high water pressure, the kink needs manually unravelling.

Maybe a case of lubrication failure?

Last edited by gunner; 12/06/21 7:51 pm.

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Cyborg #865486 12/06/21 10:18 pm
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I’m guessing, but based on the size of that hose it’s the return line and the green may just the colour of the oil showing through the clear tube. At the bottom, you can just make out another larger hose which is probably the feed line. Maybe chose the reinforced clear line so return flow could be quickly observed?

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Before cleaning…. looks good relatively speaking.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]5EED5E0A-6C00-43BC-99D6-DF7ABA3D151B by First Last, on Flickr

After a bit of B15 stripper.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]3E63794A-C69F-42AA-B617-20766CB4E166 by First Last, on Flickr

Haven’t seen one with the markings still mint, but this is low mileage standard bore, still within limit for original style pistons.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]7FCFA345-49F7-4E32-9333-E1A54CB3C87C by First Last, on Flickr

Cyborg #865897 12/10/21 11:15 pm
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Random photo of the Moon taken with my Meade LS-6 Schmit Cassegrain telescope and Canon DSLR, anyone else into Astronomy as well as bikes?

If not, I'm claiming 1st position in Telescope Wars ©

moon1.jpg
Last edited by gunner; 12/11/21 7:42 am.

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Originally Posted by gunner
anyone else into Astronomy as well as bikes?
Not really, but I'm friends with the now-retired chief optical engineer of the Hubble, in case that's worth a few points.

The following is nowhere near as good as yours, but I took mine through the eyepiece of the telescope at Griffith Park Observatory (Los Angeles) with my camera when I was 15, setting the exposure using the "sunny 16" rule.

[Linked Image]

At least it's recognizable as the moon so, if no-one has a photo they took when they were younger than 15, I'm claiming first place in the 'kid' category of the Telescope Wars©.

But, we digress...

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The slightly stretched engine is Mike Hawthorn's racer. It holds the lap record in Belgium in the 500 Vintage Class. It appears that a valve head popped off. Once the valve head is loose inside the combustion chamber it is pushed hard into the head and cracks the head in four places. If it continues hammering, it pulls the studs out of the case and in this instance, pulled some of the crankcase with it. Mike is a very fast racer so I am certain he was pushing very hard when the metal started pounding.

The hose is not the best, but it is fine and the white threads are required by rule if plastic is used. I have used Hypalon in the past. The plastic hose tends to be too stiff and for an old single, that means a lot of vibration is being transferred to the float and carb. Soft tubing that doesn't kink or vibrate is best.

The cylinder muff is billet, maybe Maughan, but Clever Trevor makes them too.

I read once that Maughan uses cast iron liners. The LA Sleeve liners are nodular iron. Many tuners swear by cast iron, but from what I have read, nodular iron fits the bill. I wonder what Hepolite used? I think that oil migration up the liner walls is probably the biggest problem with aluminum muffs and ferous liners because the carbon prevents heat transfer so well.

David

Last edited by David Dunfey; 12/10/21 11:50 pm.
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Originally Posted by David Dunfey
. I think that oil migration up the liner walls is probably the biggest problem with aluminum muffs and ferous liners because the carbon prevents heat transfer so well.David

There definitely wasn’t much buildup on these ones… likely because of the low mileage. The interference fit was a little random, although better towards the lower part of the muff. Wider side to side compared to fore and aft, which could be explained by less material where the pushrod tubes go. Robert just did a pair. Carbon looked pretty bad…. he had oversize liners on his shelf, so that’s the route he decided to go.

Last edited by Cyborg; 12/11/21 12:32 am.
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I took mine through the eyepiece of the telescope at Griffith Park Observatory (Los Angeles) with my camera when I was 15

All things considered, not bad at all given that you were at the tender age of 15.

As seen from the pics of you pulling wheelies a few years later, like most of us, I assume your outlook became more reckless and adventurous in your early twenties, but then as maturity set in a more pressing and serious scientific worldview took over.

Great that you are friends with the former optics designer of the Hubble, I bet he has some good stories to share and would almost certainly be the winner of Telescope Wars © if he were a member of this forum.

Last edited by gunner; 12/11/21 3:00 pm.

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Originally Posted by David Dunfey
Once the valve head is loose inside the combustion chamber it is pushed hard into the head and cracks the head in four places.
In that case I must have had all my good luck charms with me at Snetterton with the outfit, dropped a valve 3/4 down the looooong straight, the inlet valve head ended up 'posted' sidewards down the inlet manifold, mainly stopped in its progression by the valve seat which was practically split in half!

Originally Posted by David Dunfey
The cylinder muff is billet,
Any specific reason for this David? I was always told that you got reduced cooling with 'from solid' muffs compared to cast because of the smoother machined surfaces between the fins, unless they were seriously abraded by some form of grit based blast cleaning (which in the image does not to have been done).

Last edited by Twin Pot Phil; 12/11/21 10:59 pm.
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Phil,

I am not really sure about the billet muffs. For road racing, I have had great luck with the Nicasil coated aluminum sleeves. The advantages are that you can use any old muff (except the Series D diecast muffs that are too soft) because the muff is matched to the sleeve. I use a slightly larger muff and bore the crankcase spigot to suit. This gives some support to the piston and allows a good fit between the two. The muff is usually a slip fit on the aluminum liner and Loctite is used to prevent any movement. Millennium does it this way. I like this method because it keeps oil out of the muff/liner contact point. Some of these cylinders have been raced for decades.

On the ferrous liners, the interference fit can be very high. The cast muffs will pop above 0.009" interference fit, but that is probably way too tight. Waisting is always an issue and I am not sure which would be better. The billet might work better with less of an interference fit, but I have no data on that. We don't want the cylinder to be girdled at the muff and loser at the bare sleeve where it goes into the case.

Coburn used a 2-3/32" inlet valve on the Flash and it always worked well for him, but he had to grind the liner away for clearance at low lift. I have been running less than 2" valves (1.938") and I have not had to notch the cylinders. But for Land Speed Racing I think the larger valve is required. Also, the runs are quite short, so heat is not an issue. It is possible that LSR might be a good situation to use a ferrous line with a billet muff. This way you could modify the liner for clearance for the larger valve without worrying about the Nicasil. I believe that Alp did not see any advantage to using billet muffs. He tends to land on the stock side of the line unless there is a proven problem. He used ferrous liners and the engine runs cold because of all the fuel.

On the broken valve head; sometimes the valve head is vertical, which is what cracks the head and makes a real mess. It depends upon the compression ratio you are running, also.

David

Last edited by David Dunfey; 12/12/21 1:44 am.
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In a photo of Alp’s cylinder, although I’m not positive, it looks like he removed a little bit of the liner on the intake side. It’s an older photo, so things may have changed , but his choice of pistons if they are what I think they are surprises me.

I’ve been informed that .006” is the desired number for stock liners and muffs. I couldn’t imagine trying 9.

Last edited by Cyborg; 12/12/21 4:05 am.
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David, Ken
For road racing, nickasil on an aluminium liner is the only way to go because of the heat transfer problems associated with any other form of liner.
As we all know, Vins have a massive problem with heat rejection when run hard, especially road racing on petrol (gas!), both at the cylinder and at the head, anything that can be done to reduce the problem is the only way to go.
There are many problems with non ali liners, I believe all related to the installed degree of interference fit and the unequal amounts of metal in the muff at different points exerting differing amounts of retention pressure, too tight is as bad as too loose, the liner/muff relationship always distorts differently over the entire muff area at different operating temperatures.

I raced the outfit on iron liners and definitely noticed a power decay later in a race or at a twisty circuit when prodominately using lower gears. Going with nickasil for next time, will incorporate a recess at the inlet valve as I think to do otherwise causes a large flow disruption, especially with larger inlet valves.

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Phil,
Assuming I live long enough to finish this thing, I won’t be thrashing it enough to generate any heat. May even have to add a bunch of ballast in the form of an electric leg. Just organizing the tools etc. to add valve seals. I have an aversion to oil smoke, so would rather deal with a bit of wear. My Rapide drove me nuts…. the thing was a joy to ride (once the gearbox was sorted), but it always smoked a bit. Eventually found out that the oil delivery holes were way too high. It was pre internet, so had to figure things out on our own. Now you can just block them off! Bike is long gone, but the pipes are still hanging on the wall.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]488981B6-4F8C-4554-BC92-2667E37DE734 by First Last, on Flickr

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Ken, the race outfit does not have any oil holes in the liner - deliberately. When first building the outfit (millions of years ago) my racing mentor (the super fast legend that is Martin Davenport) mentioned that he had never bothered with them, ever, and had not ever detected any excess wear and this was in tandem with a dry sump.
I did the same and likewise never had any detectable wear that was in excess of usual or hint of moments of siezure, so I have never bothered any other time.

I found small twin pipes louder than the 2" pipes I fitted (on the race outfit) - don't know why, but those pipes sure do 'sing' at you when the motor is working hard at revs (a little bit distracting when you're trying hard to stay off the green stuff!!) whereas the smaller pipes 'rasped' more.

I think that I will seriously have to think about an electric leg for the road twin now that old age is creeping over me, dammit.

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Originally Posted by Twin Pot Phil
I found small twin pipes louder than the 2" pipes.

I find that interesting. Basically #1 reason why they ended up hanging on the wall. Think I may have mentioned this before, but…. I was planning on using 2” pipes for a couple of reasons. One being, I believe the 2” pipes are original. The other reason makes no sense. The 2” pipes have been shortened, presumably in search for a little more hp, but I plan on going back to the original length (whatever that might be) providing I can find suitable tubing. Haven’t looked yet.

While the electric leg would/should be considered sacrilegious, as far as I know ( stand to be corrected) the only modifications are to the G50 and the gearbox cover. I have an extra of each that can be sacrificed. The thing is not really noticeable and it has a silver lining. With the 2” pipes and factory rearsets it means no kickstart. I have the bits to convert it to L/H side (to clear the pipes), but that doesn’t cure the rearset conundrum….. the electric starter would. Bump starting is out and parking on a hill is hit and miss.
I saw a Shadow with the original style (non folding) rearsets and I asked what the L/H kickstart was for. He had modified the peg and brake assembly so it was detachable. Still a 2 man job with TT’s unless idle stops go in the slides and a VFR800 side stand is attached.

I was searching for some info last night and came across a couple of interesting blurbs (one specific to Vincent) about Alpha big end bearings …. using an outer race with smaller ID and doing the final grinding after the race has been installed in the rod. When I get a minute I’ll scan it and send it to you.

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Ken, I can measure the length of my 2" pipes for you as they were made (not by me!) by coping an original set and are at the untuned length, they are the side by side type (I'll try to post an image).
The factory did produce a version that was up and over, but I don't know how they fare for sufficient ground clearance - that's something I've never had to be concerned about on an outfit!
The 2" pipes are definitely a high throttle opening HP pipe.

I have never kept a Vin standard, never intend to, want to ride them, so never been concerned about adding anything to make them more 'road (or me) friendly'.

I originally ran the race outfit on brand new stub fitting 32mm monoblocks (from a Spanish two stroke) that I modified for smooth bore and a more laminar entry flow and remote central floats (I lent my original 32mm TTs to a racer who left the country with them and has ignored all 'please return them' requests since) because at the time no-one would sell me a replacement set of TTs.

The French starter motor requires a new G50 and that is supplied as part of the starter package, the cover mod does not render the cover useless otherwise (other than a bit of subsequent filling), but I'm still not sure which way I'm heading with that one yet.

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These are side by side and obviously need some work. You know…. a contract to put a cap in that guys ass would cost less than the value of the 32 mm TT’s.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]112F7257-A459-4FBC-880F-3BDDE8E258A2 by First Last, on Flickr


I had forgotten that the G50 comes with the kit. I had a look at one yesterday and it looks ok. Not sure how much abuse the sprag will take, so probably best to make sure timing is spot on and grow a third hand to pull in the decompression lever.

Picked up a couple of (probably Alpha) outer races that have smaller ID’s. Need to be ground after installation, so that’ll be a bit of a learning curve. Given that I’ve solved the crankshaft conundrum I’ll be kicking that can down the road though and ultimately it may be just for the challenge. Today’s job is getting ready to install valve seals. Maybe channel some positive thoughts my way… removing and installing the guide retainers always makes me feel a little queasy.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]66D0056C-AB80-481A-8EA0-7BC9B8CDDB1F by First Last, on Flickr

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Drama free. The threads in the head are perfect, so no problems.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]EFE7F432-6268-4603-A3BF-2239F1E62C4D by First Last, on Flickr

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At times like this, a decent bore scope would be welcome. Set it up in the rocker bore and be able to watch what’s actually going on.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]64C8FC3B-0ACE-44D8-B2CA-E2645B6814D5 by First Last, on Flickr

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Originally Posted by Cyborg
You know…. a contract to put a cap in that guys ass would cost less than the value of the 32 mm TT’s.
Yep, a 'respected' member of the VOC as well, found out after the event that he had previous on that form. Just a pity that I did not know he was last in the UK until after the event!!

Originally Posted by Cyborg
Not sure how much abuse the sprag will take, so probably best to make sure timing is spot on
Oh yes, a swiftbackfire is the death knell of the sprag apparently.

Originally Posted by Cyborg
Today’s job is getting ready to install valve seals. Maybe channel some positive thoughts my way… removing and installing the guide retainers always makes me feel a little queasy.
Channelling, channelling, channelling!!

The next major task for me is to replace a major section of crankcase on a set of single crankcases, fortunately there is fantastic alloy welder 30 miles away that has previously worked major acts of craftsmanship on Jap 4 cyl stinkwheel cases (his language when a pocket of zinc explodes under the arc is something to befold, still doesn't phase him tho'!!), he has a massive pre-heat/weld hearth and cool down box. A previous job I took him was to weld squish band lands on to a couple of pistons - they are still good having served!

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I always figured that preheating them the old fashioned way was best. Seems like most just use the TIG torch to do that job. I had a pair of cases that were welded improperly. The shift plate spindle boss parted company with the cases. Unfortunately they weren’t preheated and cooled properly. Not something I’m ready for. Making an alloy primary cover or oil tank is as far as I’ve ventured.

In keeping with the scattered approach to this project and while waiting for valve seals…

Ground off some protruding bits with a bastard file, so it would sit flat.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]4D49F13A-B05D-41A9-941E-2A9564DAD973 by First Last, on Flickr


Scribed a few lines to find the centre and used this tool for setting up the centre punch. It has a clear lens with crosshairs.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]EFF6EFD6-6D6A-4BF2-88BE-00E75F6E1158 by First Last, on Flickr


Carefully pull out the lens and replace it with the centre punch.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]695DE005-D987-4AD9-ACC0-29F6A2F219A3 by First Last, on Flickr


Bolt it down in the mill and use a wiggler centre finder. Doesn’t have to be super accurate because the centre hole is the datum and everything else is referenced off of that.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]D36DDEDB-8799-4E3D-BDBA-23A668284212 by First Last, on Flickr

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Drill a pilot hole….bore it out close to final size and the used a reamer. Wanted the size of the hole to be as accurate as possible so it will be a snug fit on the mandrel for more machining.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]A5358B26-3911-4921-AD81-25D0BB890612 by First Last, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]4E068FDD-6497-4CD3-8F9B-4F000DAF7FED by First Last, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]2AB58DBD-68EB-4090-A970-BCD26C38EF27 by First Last, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]7E49E1F5-5546-44C3-AF31-7D695F40F035 by First Last, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]E09DFA0A-0970-4309-8298-8A4F342AC9CE by First Last, on Flickr

Last edited by Cyborg; 12/19/21 2:24 am.
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Nice job, I'm assuming its a brake plate?


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Originally Posted by gunner
Nice job, I'm assuming its a brake plate?

Thanks, Yes, it’s a copy of the magnesium alloy (I forget what they called it) versions used on the Lightning and Grey Flash. The originals can be found….. a nice fellow in Australia would have sold me a set for a very reasonable price, but they tend to degrade over time. I didn’t want to cringe every time I applied them…. assuming I get to that point.
The one above is a rear plate, so I still have the fronts to do. Only using one of the ( normally) 2 rears, so figured I would have 2 chances to get it right before starting on the fronts. It will be a slow process because I don’t have the drawings and just winging it. Once I get the axles, hubs and drums sorted, I can figure out how much to shave off and where.

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