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#864051 11/24/21 8:39 am
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Rohan Offline OP
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Hot stuff in the projects dept on fleabuy.
Anyone know offhand what the hp specs are for a Picador ?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vincent-...e-unique-Project-to-finish-/185180483865

That has to be the holy grail for someone.
Big $$$$$ indeed ...

[Linked Image from i.ebayimg.com]

Nope, he's pulled the plug.
Probably realized this is GOLD, and reserve was way too low ??

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Hmmm, that is a massive time, money and engineering drain - there is not much the same in the picador engine as a road twin, almost everything is special, even the cams and followers - polydine form, no good having one without the other!
There are drives for fuel pump and other non road items and the ignition was different,
Final drive went to a bevel box for the propellor - so the engine was in the plane 'back to front'!!

The picador was built for an aimed constant 70 BHP, allegedly with a flat power curve as the thing was to power a towing plane for gun practise targets!!

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I tried to buy a Scintilla mag a little while back. Offered the fellow what I thought was reasonable, but he wanted to get a bid from someone else. He came back later to ask if was still interested. The other bid fell through. Just as well, because in the meantime some photos of a known original arrived which suggested what he was selling was not from a Picador, but from something else and modified to work at 50 degrees. Still an interesting mag, but not worth the money. More of a conversation piece anyway. Only time I saw one ( the mag) was in Malcom’s shop with Fast Lady.


When the bike above was listed, it showed a bunch of welding in the timing chest and the mag was one of the missing pieces. Figure it snapped off when it hit the bog at 200 mph.


[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]89ABAA2D-F4FA-4B49-9F9E-DF2F65AB8351 by First Last, on Flickr

Last edited by Cyborg; 12/01/21 10:12 pm.
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As it would seem it has already been raced in a past life,
presumably all the superfluous Picador stuff has gone ?
(which makes you wonder how it is a Picador then ?)

How would Picador cams, if they were retained, perform in a road bike -
has anyone actually tried this ?

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Originally Posted by Cyborg

thats interesting. i once saw an aeroplane motor in a glass box at some airport somewhere in the world once. it was a ford flathead V8 with a reduction gearbox mounted to the front with an attached propeller.

im calling it an aeroplane motor but it might have been an orchard wind machine. they used to use ford V8s for those as well.


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As Phil points out, the Picador has radically different crankcases and the chain drive is a triplex chain that runs a bevel gear to the prop.

The engine is based on a Black Shadow. The cams are Mk2. The engine was fuel injected and governed to just over 4000 RPM, I believe.

The Mk2 cams are well-known and are able to make about 80 bhp in racing trim, but are more likely to make 70 in the Picador. This would be at the crank, not the prop or the wheel. Almost every Vincent owner has Mk2 cams in their bike, whether or not the cam makes the bike work better. There were about 30 Picador engines built.

Trevor Smith raced the bike, but I am not certain how well it performed. The frame is not an Egli frame but a Sprint frame. It was built by Trevor and his son, as I remember. They built a small number of frames, maybe nine? I remember Gene Aucott bought two from them. The jigs were eventually sold to Cyril Malem (CTG) and the first frame built on the CTG jig was Roy Robertson's bike. A true 150 MPH racer that Roy is still racing.

The Scintilla mags are very difficult to service any longer. They were a good mag at one time, but now the best magneto available is probably the Morris Magneto that Alp is running at SCTA events.

I would note that the record-breaking Vincent sprinters of John Renwick all sold for about $15,000 each, and they were all runners. I don't believe that this would be a big-dollar project, but if someone believes in it, it may sell for big dollars.

David

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Originally Posted by kevin
Originally Posted by Cyborg

thats interesting. i once saw an aeroplane motor in a glass box at some airport somewhere in the world once. it was a ford flathead V8 with a reduction gearbox mounted to the front with an attached propeller.

im calling it an aeroplane motor but it might have been an orchard wind machine. they used to use ford V8s for those as well.

Sacrilege on BritBike…. never mind the Vincent section.. not one of my favourite motors, but interesting all the same.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]FF5E387C-1F1B-4F2B-B3CD-5B9FB3D2097F by First Last, on Flickr

Long ago when I saw the Scintilla mag, it was considered Vincent’s version of the Faberge egg, although a KVFTT has now superseded it.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]B7B425C5-09FB-4D73-866D-DD21E00F90E0 by First Last, on Flickr

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So where does the claim that this is anything Picador related come from ???

Just about every motorcycle engine has been used in an aircraft at some time ?
Some may be more suitable than others ...

[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]

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i would not fly in ^^^that.


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ITS BACK !!

Relisted.

Bidding started at 5,000 GBP, is now 20,000 GBP.

Plenty of work still to be done, I've learnt to pick my projects, and it's way out of my league.

Ideal for someone who wants a silk purse.

Last edited by sammysnail; 12/02/21 2:10 pm.

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Aha, said some pics didn't show, only way to solve this was to relist and link the pics again.

And, some extra details, sez the crankcases are Picador.
Inc showing the numbers.

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Originally Posted by Rohan
How would Picador cams, if they were retained, perform in a road bike - has anyone actually tried this ?

Exactly the same as the well known and used bike engine based Mk2 cams - because the picador cams produce exactly the same timing profile, except (and being a pedant, I am going to slightly disagree with David's statement) they are NOT Mk2s because the cams are polydine form and the followers have a radiussed foot to suit the polydine form - why I hear you ask, to reduce the loading on the follower as the aircraft engines were to run for periods at constant extended RPM, straight followers on std MK2s get a much more stressfull life

Originally Posted by Cyborg
Long ago when I saw the Scintilla mag, it was considered Vincent’s version of the Faberge egg, although a KVFTT has now superseded it.
Sort of, Scintilla mags became 'wantable' because the std Lucas items were originally produced to a (low) price and the internal (cheap) capacitor was well known to fail early, especially under racing conditions. Back in the day the high mileage guys used to fit Scintilla because they far more reliable (and should be given the cost difference). These days just fit a modern BTH if you want reliable sparks, or get a Lucas rebuilt (even with a manual adv/ret) by a proper specialist incorporating a modern capacitor - waaaay cheaper by several zeros that any KVFTT.

Last edited by Twin Pot Phil; 12/04/21 9:55 pm.
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Originally Posted by Twin Pot Phil
Originally Posted by Rohan
How would Picador cams, if they were retained, perform in a road bike - has anyone actually tried this ?

Exactly the same as the well known and used bike engine based Mk2 cams - because the picador cams produce exactly the same timing profile, except (and being a pedant, I am going to slightly disagree with David's statement) they are NOT Mk2s because the cams are polydine form and the followers have a radiussed foot to suit the polydine form - why I hear you ask, to reduce the loading on the follower as the aircraft engines were to run for periods at constant extended RPM, straight followers on std MK2s get a much more stressfull life

Originally Posted by Cyborg
Long ago when I saw the Scintilla mag, it was considered Vincent’s version of the Faberge egg, although a KVFTT has now superseded it.
Sort of, Scintilla mags became 'wantable' because the std lucas items were originally produced to a (low) price and the internal (cheap) capacitor was well known to fail early, especially under racing conditions. Back in the day the high mileage guys used to fit Scintilla because they far more reliable (and should be given the cost difference). These days just fit a modern BTH if you want reliable sparks, or get a Lucas rebuilt (even with a manual adv/ret) by a proper specialist incorporating a modern capacitor - waaaay cheaper by several zeros that any KVFTT.

Well to be fair, that comment was based on a conversation between my brother and Malcolm Attrill. They were holding it like a Faberge egg and speaking in tongues.

I’m attempting to make a KVFTT knock-off from one of the racing mags that had the same sized housing. Had to change safety gap screws for different direction of rotation, add a slack wire advance, and change the angle of one pickup. Made the screw on breather/points cover. It’s fairly close…. just needs to be kicked around the shop a few times to add some patina. Unfortunately it’s still on the stalled projects bench. The professionally made CNC machined end housing has a few “minor issues” that need to be sorted out. Hopefully an original slack wire housing will fall out of the sky in the meantime.


[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]27BFAF43-99C7-4D9F-83C4-F557DD9C7DB2 by First Last, on Flickr


[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]64459437-8EE3-4099-8946-62D1C400FC3A by First Last, on Flickr

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This was posted in another thread.
Explains much.
May as well update here.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]


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