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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Originally Posted by kevin
but the fastest mile bikes right now are alp sungertekins, and he runs GP3s himself and specifies them for the bikes he builds.
AMAL sponsors Alp, it's likely the carbs he uses on his bikes cost far less than what we might pay? The magic is in the engine build not in the carburetor, lol..
Better than flow numbers is power and performance seen on a dyno or track...Does an Amal GP make more power than a similar sized Mikuni or Keihin flat slide carbs?

th ecurrent price for a new 1-3/8 GP2 is US$800, and a matchbox float bowl is over US$250. thats a bunch of bucks. ive not seen any new-model GPs for sale second hand, ever. i guess its a pretty loyal market.

but see, the "similar size" question is the key. if you can cheat your way around the GP's flow advantage by making a bigger AMAL MK2 or a Mikuni or a dellorto or something work on the same engine, then it doesn't have an advantage anymore.


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Mark Parker #862072 10/31/21 1:48 pm
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Originally Posted by Mark Parker
Like I worked out before, if it flows 150cfm it means around 77hp on a 654, and that's driving pretty hard from lower rpm depending on how that works out exactly. The 8% difference may well change at higher speed to favour the smooth bore. Like changing test pressure with more vac means more speed. And that speed may effect how the carb works through all the circuits.

So you can raise performance throwing on some GPs but you may be no where near the potential they actually have with a head breathing so much more, and we don't know.

Build a Spitfire Kevin, a Triumph isn't the same thing. Use a stock cam and just make a bomb proof bottom end. I'll get better measurements on the other side when I do it.

youve hit two things, mark. no matter how much the carb flows, if the limitation is in the ports the carbs wont help until the ports are fixed first. and maybe the 8 percent advantage on a flow bench becomes 10 percent at actual working conditions, where the air has non-STP pressure, temperature, hmidity, velocity, and so on. im way out of my depth talking about that stuff, and wouldnt know what to do with a flow bench if i had one.

i like the 650 triumphs, but their cylinder heads were designed by the druids. i really like the spitfire idea, too, but i think i'd have to wait on a winning lottery ticket to get one.


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Mark Parker #862081 10/31/21 3:50 pm
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Originally Posted by kevin
i keep thinking back to what gordon jennings wrote back in 73, in his two stroke tuners handbook ... was he right?
Following is something I posted five years ago:
------------
Back in the '60s I used to look forward to Jennings' articles because of the technical content. Unfortunately, the more I learned the less Jennings knew, and by the end of the '60s I realized his articles only had looked good by comparison with other ones because the others lacked any technical content at all (in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king). Anyway, in the first article in that series he wrote what he said was everything anyone needed to know for how and why to switch to an automotive coil. However, the next three articles all basically started with Jennings explaining that he had learned a lot since the last article and the current one now has the actual story. Sigh...
-------------

Jennings did not have an engineering background, which certainly doesn't mean he couldn't have learned, but the following quote from an obituary in Car and Driver magazine says a lot about his approach to technical writing: "He liked ornate expressions and quotes, and he laced his copy and conversations with them." A phrase like "an engine that would develop the blind-staggers with an Amal GP" sounds great in print, but did Jennings write it because of the way it sounds, or because it is true? I haven't read his 'Two Stroke Tuner's Handbook' for many years, but I'd want independent confirmation of something like the above before I would believe it.

Mark Parker #862097 10/31/21 4:58 pm
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Originally Posted by kevin
have you tested other carbs with that same diameter?
As the two graphs in one of my posts indicates, I made a lot of measurements on my flow bench to determine the modifications to make to 1036/1038 Concentrics to make them work well on a Gold Star.. Many of those measurements as a function of throttle position used 932 Concentrics because I had three of them with 'Standard', Norton, and two-stroke spray tubes, but I only measured the flow at full throttle on the 1036, 1038 and GP to see how much potential top end performance each of those carburetors had. Unfortunately, the only Mikuni VM38 that I have came without a slide so I couldn't measure it.

Mark Parker #862107 10/31/21 7:11 pm
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Tom mentioned the nice linear fuel curve on a Mikuni flat slide... Many carbs go rich at maximum flow...So you might be flowing more air but making less power with the wrong air/fuel ratio..
The only test that matters is installed on a running engine..


79 T140D, 89 Honda 650NT ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons
"I don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"
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Magnetoman #862108 10/31/21 7:57 pm
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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Originally Posted by kevin
have you tested other carbs with that same diameter?
As the two graphs in one of my posts indicates, I made a lot of measurements on my flow bench to determine the modifications to make to 1036/1038 Concentrics to make them work well on a Gold Star.. Many of those measurements as a function of throttle position used 932 Concentrics because I had three of them with 'Standard', Norton, and two-stroke spray tubes, but I only measured the flow at full throttle on the 1036, 1038 and GP to see how much potential top end performance each of those carburetors had. Unfortunately, the only Mikuni VM38 that I have came without a slide so I couldn't measure it.

well there went three hours of my life

i run 35mm keihin FCR flat slides on a 650 LSR triumph. i dont know what they flow, but they have a decently open venturi at full throttle:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

the old 1966 BSA spitfire ran GP2 instruments that were 30mm when the slide was all the way up, and didn't have the needle in the way. just looking at cross sectional area, the FCRs have some 36 percent advantage over the BSA GP2s. the run well at small throttle openings and large throttle openings, and burble through th midrange reversion. so they seem more or less okay on size.

but do they flow 36 percent better? how do they compare? the FCR itself is newer than the GP2-patter, but its still old in its own right. just not as old.

im curious now. what would a spitfire do with the FCRs? what would the LSR triumph do with GP2s?


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Mark Parker #862124 10/31/21 10:25 pm
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I've been down this track a bit. I compared a 34pwk to a 34vm they are very similar. Lectrons are very good. And that 35kehin looks good. But sizes and port function surprised me.
34pwks on a 650. For some reason though you sort of expect it may not pull so well down low it's actually better, more responsive. Top gear, come to a hill and touch the throttle and it's strong. Especially for a 650. It's no bottomless pit but it's very nice. So whatever is happening I think it's a combination of speed and volume.

I've had 38mm ports that flowed less through 44.5mm valves, on bigger engines. The 30mm port for a GP cannot out flow a 34mm port with the same valve it is higher speed though, and the 34mm is very high speed, that speed determines hp the 30mm is extreme speed, multi valve F1 is 420fps in the book the best 2 valves quoted around 340-360fps. It does say up to 600fps + on F1 engines so what that does I'm not sure. The 650with 34s goes nuts on full throttle and needs a very strong clutch as stock will not cope.


mark
kevin #862128 10/31/21 10:54 pm
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Originally Posted by kevin
well there went three hours of my life
That's exactly what I said when I finished the flow bench testing, except it wasn't three...

Mark Parker #862144 11/01/21 2:41 am
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A 32mm port and std.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Down the 34mm pwk. You can see the non smooth bore cut for the chrome slide, it still manages around 160cfm and excellent speed. They are under $100 the pair.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

You can see the oval ring at the manifold head joint and the darker fill on the port floor.
Just going back to a hp calculator.

With 109cfm from the std head a street strip engine estimates 51hp, with a race engine (10-1 comp and GP2s) 56hp pretty much what was quoted power from the factory. In 1968 they dropped the compression to 9-1 and fitted 32mm Concentrics and ported better 120cfm on a std motor 57hp, again right near the factory figure. So 130cfm in a 654 factory race engine predicts 67hp and the factory dyno said 66hp. It's predictions are within 1hp. But what happens when you push that to 150 or 160cfm or more?

Last edited by Mark Parker; 11/01/21 9:32 am.

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Mark Parker #862154 11/01/21 11:33 am
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From my experience with the GP's the matchbox will not flow enough fuel for sustained full throttle. Triumph used two floats for their racers at Daytona and elsewhere. For ease of use and good power the NYC Matchless G50's and Manx use 44VM.......But the fastest Manx in US has a GP. To paraphrase Hillbilly, it's the total package.

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Mark Parker #862156 11/01/21 12:58 pm
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not all GPs are created equal. the spitfire's were 30mm, while the current mile machines with them are 35. the gold star stuff is mostly 1-1/2 inches isnt it?

Last edited by kevin; 11/01/21 12:59 pm.

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Mark Parker #862176 11/01/21 9:58 pm
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okay. i'm in.

bill was kind enough to put some GP2s up for sale, and so i bought them

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

complete set. two 1-5/32-inch bodies, one matchbox float chamber, and lots of bits

some loose slides. 3, 4, 5 and a 6

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

an extra body

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

original Fasteners, brackets and air needles are there

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

lol

including what look like original hose clamps

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

only one float chamber, but im arranging for anothrr


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Mark Parker #862184 11/02/21 1:04 am
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I have a head, who has a Spitfire?

Or a stock A65 bottom end? Late model is better. Is there something you could put an engine in Kevin? A pristine Spitfire would probably have the most value, if someone has bits laying around.

Or how close are you to Pushrod Tom? I guess you are at least on the same continent. Maybe BSA owners on forums and stuff could chip in to just see how effective the GP2s can be? Tom has pushed that already but there may be more. And if that was happening maybe AMAL would help if you need bits.

MAP do rods, EdV pistons and G/box support plate and bearing. It's not like the bike bits are rare.

Last edited by Mark Parker; 11/02/21 1:09 am.

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This is kind of starting at the wrong end of the problem, isn't it? Fix the valve end first then work back to the carb. But even if you fix the head and get more power, you still have the flexing crank problem due to it being suspended on the far ends, then the barely adequate clutch suspended way out on the end of the mainshaft in a gearbox with only four ratios, et cetera.

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4 speeds, even stock ratios don't matter that much but it needs gearing up. If the motor pulls hard, gears are not a big thing, just put it in a tall one and go. Power does not mean rpm. It kind of does but doesn't, there is a weird disconnect. The side car 745cc beats 920s and 840s and 1200 Vincents, some 5speed, all on Methanol in a straight line I think. And Matt revs it to only 6,800. 10 starts 8 wins and a 2nd because it was jumping out of gear. Matt's been working on a better rear tyre for more grip and less wheel spin.

3rd bearing on G/box main shaft and on the crank outside the alternator, everyone knows that. Triumph racers used to have the rotors machined so they didn't weld themselves to the stator. A bearing is better. Balance for rpm. Get good clutch parts and beef it up. Steel rods. A timing side roller means longevity and ease of replacement if you could wear one out. Not hard to set up if you want that.

When John Brittain designed his vee-twin he started with the inlet ports. A bit the same as 1300hp+ two valve per cylinder pro-stock hemi engines with dual 4 barrels.

[url=https://postimages.org/][Linked Image from i.postimg.cc][/url

The reality is simply this; the intake port is barely bigger than stock, it's a more refined shape and air goes through easier. And 37.6% more, sort of round about, depending on the carb. So 56hp in theory + 37.6% becomes 77hp. And that may be the case except the port is small and the air travelling so fast ramming that mixture in and that's happening at low rpm as well, again boosting hp right through the range, provided it doesn't exceed Mach .62. How a smaller 2 valve engine can decimate a bigger 4 valve Cosworth right through the range. That's what this is fiddling with. I'm not sure what little GP2s will do. But 34s do seem to have this effect, it's a really fun thing.

Just to add the crank and stuff should be fine seeing Tom runs his LSR twins with very high hp.

Last edited by Mark Parker; 11/02/21 8:09 am.

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Mark Parker #862204 11/02/21 12:00 pm
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the GP2s will be a long term project for me. i have a 650 track bike build going on. and i may put em in my LSR mile bike to see what happens.

where is the crossover between velocity and cross sectional area? they used to say the spitfire 2as good for 125 mph, but people dispute it. toms hornet got 125 with them. dunno


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Mark Parker #862206 11/02/21 12:26 pm
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Kevin, get a supply of jets and dyno the bike with the different carbs for a comparison .....You need some real life info...
So you're thinking the 35 mm race bred Keihins are too large, or the way, flow less air than the 30mm AMAL?


79 T140D, 89 Honda 650NT ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons
"I don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"
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Mark Parker #862213 11/02/21 4:06 pm
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Har Har, That 125 came after years of trying how to make it work. The GP's were for the Production class. Street trim, mufflers etc. They were about even Steven with 34 TM's. But TM's much more even fuel curve. I would say that the BSA promoters did not exactly open the crate of a random bike for their speed claims! Would suggest a very carefully prepped bike. I bet the ad sold a lot of bikes! Mark ll Sexy as hell and the GP's badass!

PS Rode that around on the street a bit and the GP's worked pretty good. Memory says that I used a one number or half number leaner slide.

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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Kevin, get a supply of jets and dyno the bike with the different carbs for a comparison .....You need some real life info...
So you're thinking the 35 mm race bred Keihins are too large, or the way, flow less air than the 30mm Amal?

im just curious. i agree the test for these is to put em on a running engine, get the mixgure right, and measure.

the FCRs i have are very good and pretty latge. leo goff used 35 mm FCRs to go 146 on his norton quarter mile machines, and theyve got me to 135 in the mile point five, and over 130 easily in the mile. they have me wondering whether i should have followed other toms advice and over-carburated to 40mm.

i dont have a BSA with more than one carburetor


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pushrod tom #862218 11/02/21 6:08 pm
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Originally Posted by pushrod tom
Har Har, That 125 came after years of trying how to make it work. The GP's were for the Production class. Street trim, mufflers etc. They were about even Steven with 34 TM's..

see, ^^^your work is what got me curious. did you have a rob hall head on that bike at the time? you have lectrons on your mile bike right now, dont uou?


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Mark mentioned Pro stock car drag engines. In the USA they are 500 cubic inch push rod 2 valve engines.Like Nascar, they are built to a strict set of rules....About 1500 HP at 10, 000 rpm, the intake ports flow over 700 cfm, the valve lift is around .750 inch or more. There are several racing organization with slightly different rules.NHRA rules require wedge heads not hemi...I don't believe the wedges make less power..
If the engine heads were not rules restricted the heads would be four valve for sure...
Back to Brit junk, Supposedly a too small carb working at full flow is more efficient than a larger carb working at lets say 85% of it max flow...Who knows....


79 T140D, 89 Honda 650NT ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons
"I don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"
Mark Parker #862232 11/02/21 9:57 pm
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Originally Posted by Mark Parker
I have a head, who has a Spitfire?

Or a stock A65 bottom end? Late model is better. Is there something you could put an engine in Kevin? A pristine Spitfire would probably have the most value, if someone has bits laying around.

Or how close are you to Pushrod Tom? I guess you are at least on the same continent. Maybe BSA owners on forums and stuff could chip in to just see how effective the GP2s can be? Tom has pushed that already but there may be more. And if that was happening maybe AMAL would help if you need bits.

MAP do rods, EdV pistons and G/box support plate and bearing. It's not like the bike bits are rare.

Well Mark, I'd be interested in building an A65 land speed bike, but they're expensive (they all are) and there's not much return for my money except bragging rights. I have a set of '70 cases, a set of '68 barrels and a head, even a set of T10 GP2 carbs, but not much else. I think I'd get some help from Mark Appleton at British Cycle on used parts, but most of his used stuff is well used. I'd probably spend a few grand on parts just to get it going, and the motor has to be sleeved down or de-stroked to make it eligible for the 650 class. I just got back from Colorado and the Salt Flats so I'll be in Nova Scotia until probably April. If I can get a frame, barrels ('70), and a good crank, and decide to spend the money on pistons, cam, connecting rods, and the other parts, I can do the rest. I'll be in contact with Mark Appleton soon, but so far, he won't let anyone into his used parts supply because of Covid. I'll keep you posted.

The other thing you have to remember is that in land speed racing, horsepower is king, damn the torque curve! That means rpm x torque, and the shift from 3rd to 4th determines if you can get thru the aero wall.

Tom


Life's uncertain - go fast now!
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Ben's building a P4 race bike that will be a 654 with 34mm head and Tom has one to test so we'll see how they go. I think ultimately they are better because they flow more and are very fast. And they may be better again on a 744 but they are not detrimental in any way on a 654. I just did this small port head because some Spitfire owners like their exotic GP2s and I'm curious.

The 34mm works very well on a race outfit here as well. You would think cubes would win out with outfits hauling two people but they do not. 745cc beat 1200cc and everything else in P3 and lowered a lap record by 4.4seconds, it surprised people and they had trouble believing its actual displacement and fuel. And the self imposed rev limit of 6,800. It seems all wrong, but is what it does. It's unusual.

Last edited by Mark Parker; 11/02/21 10:51 pm.

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Mark Parker #862242 11/02/21 11:58 pm
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Originally Posted by Mark Parker
It seems all wrong, but is what it does. It's unusual.


its not that it seems wrong, its that it goes against what people want to seem right..

the small GP2s are small but the flow is fast. the big throats are large but the flow is slow.

slow means that it takes time to get stuff moving through a valve as it opens. on a bench with a static open valve you might not see that unless you pause to think.

it is what it does, as you say.

got to test to see.


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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
, Supposedly a too small carb working at full flow is more efficient than a larger carb working at lets say 85% of it max flow...Who knows....

test, test, test.


i'm old enough to remember when patriotism meant not trying to overthrow the government.
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