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#860379 10/09/21 11:10 am
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Im using a Fag Nup306-E Roller on the timing side and RHP 1 1/8" Roller on the drive side of the T140v engine i am presently building. i have 006" thou end float on the crank. Do i leave it as is or pull one of the bearings and shim closer.

Last edited by PEH; 10/09/21 12:13 pm.
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PEH #860380 10/09/21 11:48 am
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That timing side roller is designed to take some end thrust, and as you say they do have a little end float. Shimming to reduce end float would mean the drive side roller talking some end thrust, something it's not designed to do. That said, I am building a tuned pre-unit engine with the Imperial rollers both sides as I've done before with no problems. That 0.006" translates to a possible slight misalignment of the primary chain, again, I doubt it would cause any problem.

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Hi PHE, I’m doing timing side roller conversation on my ‘73 Tiger. Using NSK NUP306EWC3. My crank diameter demanded C3 instead of C2. However that doesn’t effect end play.

Carefully measured with dial indicator my bearing has .010” end float.

We think of ball bearing as no end float. However checking ball bearings they have .002-.003 ish new. More worn. End float is needed as roller tips & sides of balls are slide, not rolling elements. So oil space is needed to allow for hydraulic wedge of oil.

Will the .010 make noise? I don’t know. How will I compensate for primary chain alignment? I don’t know. Haven’t gotten that far yet.

The factory used these rollers on later bikes. Unless they specifically have special end clearance made in bearing it would be similar to ours. Even the ‘83 shop manual gives no special instructions when using timing side roller.

I’ll follow up when I know more.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
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PEH #860421 10/09/21 11:20 pm
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you can shim the DS roller outward to lessen the default float that
comes with a Timing side roller .
( the TS roller wont hit its inside lip if the DS lip race catches first )

float can be between the 2 inside lips of both roller bearing ... and not just the one TS 3 piece roller .

PEH #860425 10/10/21 7:54 am
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Yes Quinten, that's what I was getting at - but the float will be against the outside lips of the outer bearing races, and though I doubt it matters, the TS bearing is designed to take some end thrust, but the drive side one is not. At least in theory, there shoud be no end thrust, but a slightly mis-aligned primary chain can give some. I am using a belt primary, so at least that should not cause an issue.

PEH #860426 10/10/21 8:06 am
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It may be worth checking the end float when the cases are hot. Warm everything up and you may find more than you thought. I set up a 650 case with two rollers at .006" and when it got hot it was actually .018"! Then I set it up at zero and it was more like .008" when t was hot. So zero it was, and the first time I fired it up I warmed up the cases first. After that it was fine. Never had any issues with it being zero.

PEH #860427 10/10/21 8:26 am
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I had gone for 0.003" finish assembled, as I wanted some "shuffle room" with the compression of the Loctite 518 gasket goo on re-tightening.

PEH #860433 10/10/21 11:18 am
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The issue with zero clearance is that the crank may get heated via the rods before the cases get heated from the barrel and oil, resulting in you getting negative clearance for a short period of time during warming up.

kommando #860434 10/10/21 11:37 am
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Originally Posted by kommando
The issue with zero clearance is that the crank may get heated via the rods before the cases get heated from the barrel and oil, resulting in you getting negative clearance for a short period of time during warming up.

Put it another way. On a day that is colder than when you set zero clearance, you will be starting with less than zero clearance.

Does that matter? I don’t know.


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Originally Posted by triton thrasher
Originally Posted by kommando
The issue with zero clearance is that the crank may get heated via the rods before the cases get heated from the barrel and oil, resulting in you getting negative clearance for a short period of time during warming up.

Put it another way. On a day that is colder than when you set zero clearance, you will be starting with less than zero clearance.

Does that matter? I don’t know.
Does the heat expand the cases more than cold "shrinks" them? Is all this bearing so called upgrades worth the expense and trouble?


79 T140D, 89 Honda 650NT ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons
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But a V8 engine is a good start for me
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Yep, it's worth the "upgrade" on a T140. The wimpish standard bearing would fail on the prototype full fat T140, so the power got knocked down on the production engines. The early bearings still fail if given any real abuse. For once, I don't disbelieve the story about de-tuning, that small TS bearing had a much lower spec than the old imperial ball bearing.

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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Does the heat expand the cases more than cold "shrinks" them?

The aluminium alloy crankcase expands and contracts more with changing temperature than does the ferrous crankshaft.


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And more quickly too, I expect, given the heat path between the barrels and the cases compared to that between the rods and the big end journals, which should be very minor if there's some oil in between.


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PEH #860462 10/10/21 6:09 pm
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what I meant is do the cases expand and contact the same for a given temp change.
?


79 T140D, 89 Honda 650NT ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons
"I don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"
PEH #860463 10/10/21 6:29 pm
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Well, there is only one coefficient of expansion, so I guess the answer is yes!

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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
what I meant is do the cases expand and contact the same for a given temp change.
?

Within a reasonable range of temperatures for an engine, yes.


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PEH #860474 10/10/21 10:23 pm
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Hi All, So it brings us back to what did factory do different when they installed the roller? Nothing. They installed the roller & that's it. It controlled end float of crank like the ball did, albeit with more end float probably.

The roller has about twice the capacity as the ball did. No bad stuff happened when factory installed roller. Only good, longer life.

The factory change to timing side roller proved better than ball did in service. Others that retrofitted roller & actually put the miles on their bike state the roller has not failed at the miles the ball did. So in real life the roller is an upgrade that actually is an upgrade.

My ball failed. Bike never missed an oil change, was never ever abused. Dave's ball failed at same miles 36k. Reputations are earned. The metric ball earned a bad reputation just like the early 5 speed. Both justified so far as I can tell. Factory fixed the 5 speed problems in a few years. What, 9-10 years for the bearing? Granted at least the bearing could go 36k miles.

Really the question that remains is what was the end clearance of the original Triumph installed roller? No place can I find the end float spec listed... Even on modern replacement.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
PEH #860484 10/11/21 12:05 am
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I don't even know what end float is let alone why something with such a small measurement warrants so much discussion. Can someone please explain in plain American English?


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
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PEH #860493 10/11/21 8:19 am
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Hi Desco, In the context of the timing side roller bearing end float is the gap between the ends of the rollers & the side of the bearing race. So if you grabbed the sprocket on the crank shaft & pulled in in/out you'll feel it move. (moving crank from right to left side of motor, not front to back of bike or up/down). That's end float. A ball bearing has small end float. Often so small it's hard to feel or can't be felt. But it's there.

End float is very important. Too much the parts will rattle or vibrate & can hammer themselves to death. Too little end float the rollers will bind in the races & smoke the bearing. This could lead to much damage.

All parts need some end float to allow lubricant to get in. Also as motor heats the parts expand. Correct float compensates for this expansion. So the actual float hot is the real float. But generally it's measured at shop temperature.

Cams, shafts, most gears have float. If float becomes so great from severe wear things like shift forks or tappets won't line up properly & won't work right. Again, too little float the parts bind & make friction heat & melt, cause damage.

Does this make sense?

Sometimes these threads wander into splitting hairs. This can become a pointless conversation. However splitting hairs becomes very, very important on things like bearing clearances. So it can matter a lot. Like ruining your crank & cases if you don't get it right!
Don


1973 Tiger 750
PEH #860499 10/11/21 11:41 am
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Thanks. Very simple. So, I've rebuilt a couple of gear boxes and a few engines and never measured end float. Either it comes "built in" or I've been lucky? I have a dial indicator. Is that what you use to measure?


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1972 T120RV
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PEH #860522 10/11/21 6:53 pm
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Hi deacons, Most often float/end play is built into the dimensions of the parts. So you just put it together & good to go.

Problems arise when you make modifications, wear has taken place, or reproduction parts are not accurately made to dimension of original parts.

Float is measured with dial indicator, feeler gauge, or calculated by measuring the width of a space & length of part that fits in it.

Don


1973 Tiger 750

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