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Cases came apart with ease. First time bottom end has been apart. Glad I did this as I'll bet interested to see the state of the sludge tube after the sludge I found in the case and the bottom of the oil tank.

Drive side main bearing was a slip fit with some slight oxidization(?) on the face against the crank (see photo).

Plan to replace two bearings on crank, mainshaft and both layshaft needle bearings.


Cheers,

Steve

IMG_2851.jpeg
The Lump

IMG_2852.jpeg
Virgin sludge tube

IMG_2853.jpeg
Oxidization?


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I'm a bit late on this, but you may hace a problem on that drive side. The fact that the bearing inner was a slip fit and the discolouration of the shaft looks like the bearing had siezed at some point and the inner turned on the shaft. Sort of guessing, a C2 bearing tight in the outer and a slightly slack crank end nut are likely culprits. In any case, I would measure the shaft carefully with a micrometer, it should not be less than 1.1250" Maybe up to 0.001" less you might get away with using Loctite bearing fit (638?), and I would use a CN clearance bearing. If not listed for CN, the BSA part number 68-0625 is CN

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Thanks for that Tink...I do plan on measuring bearing races and shafts when the new bearings come in. Unfortunately(?), I ordered the bearings without measuring crankshafts. C2 condition for DS and CN for TS per what was installed. Perhaps in hindsight I should have measured before ordering, but as my dad likes to say, "we'll see how it sugars off".

On another note:

Got the sludge tube plug and flywheel bolt holding the tube out. Surprisingly the tube has hardly any sludge in it, however there is a lot of metal in the sludge. Waiting on 5/8" tap to remove sludge tube.I took the connecting rods off, a little scoring in the BE shells, crank journals look perfect at first glance. Closer inspection when I get the oil cleaned off of it.

I measure the rod bolts before disassembly. I had .006" of rod stretch on the TS rod and .005" of stretch on the DS. I know the target is .004"-.005". Perhaps I can get away with just installing new nuts and use the old ones to trial fit the new shells with Plastigauge?

First time this deep into one of these engines. I'm enjoying the experience, but I really only want to have to do this once! (on this engine)

Last edited by JubeePrince; 11/13/21 4:34 pm.

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Hello Jubee Prince; is not necessary to butchering the sludge trap plug. The other day I removed it and I will re use it. Then to remove the tube I used an extractor suggested by Don; that is perfect. So all these butchering methods that I have been reading and seeing clip are just that.
I can send you a photo of the dumb tool that I adapted to remove the plug but is like a big flat screw driver with an hex shaft to use a wrench to turn it. Nothing more like that and previous heat with a heat gun.
You need that the head should have almost the same length as the slot in the plug (about 20mm) and then rounded a bit to conform the shape of the slot.

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https://generaltools.com/1-2-in-internal-pipe-wrench-government-compliant

This is what I have for sludge trap removal. Easy and quick. No damage to sludge trap. Seems to me it was about eight bucks, 35 years ago.


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Hi, I don’t believe the ID of inner race changes between C2, CN, C3 bearings. It has not on my limited experience on drive side or timing side roller.

The effective clearance of rollers changes greatly depending on press fit interference.

NSK has engineering tables that determine clearance changes to press fit. On my T140 crank drive side bearing was a moderate press fit. Too tight for easy pry off, but easy pull with bearing splitter & puller. Would have effected clearance by about.0001-.00015”. Again tables get into that. You can split tenths of thousandths visually with good mic.

The tables will show on these bearings the C clearance will change on average about .0005” ish from one clearance to next. Not exact, but close enough I’m my experience.

A inner race slip fit or loose will have zero expansion from press fit. So study the charts. I found charts were spot on in real life. If press fit was such, race expands such, resulting in clearance change of such. It took me some hours of time & study, but it all is straight forward after your study. Trust the charts. Zero your mic with 1 & 2” standards before starting. Splitting hairs is a must. If mic is off, the chart won’t work.

We use Loctite bearing/sleeve retainer at work often. It is amazing & durable. Clean parts well. Apply Loctite. Push on bearing. Wipe excess off quickly. Install spacer tube & torque nut to hold bearing tight. Let cure 48 hrs.

When removing heat area until spit boils well. Use bearing splitter & puller.
Don


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John Healy’s directions on removing sludge tube, including 1/2 inch socket screwdriver attachment for the plug, and a simple 1/2 inch all-thread puller for the sludge tube to make at home.

http://vintagebikemagazine.com/technical-articles/removing-triumph-sludge-tube/

See paragraphs 19, 20, and 21 in the article for the puller or see this paraphrase of it. https://www.triumphrat.net/threads/pulling-sludge-trap.807674/. Instead of trying to thread the 1/4-20 x 1/2 Allen set screw into the puller through the hole in the crank, I usually just thread it in before inserting the puller and then simply unscrew it a bit to engage with the sludge tube—way easier to do.

These both work so well in most cases you can re-use both parts.

Last edited by linker48x; 11/15/21 2:50 am.
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Hi JubeePrince, For sure make tool to pull tube. I made one. I made detailed videos of using it in real life, plus installing tube & plug. Be sure plug is not installed too deep.

If undamaged you can reuse rod bolts. I think you’ll find torque wrench to specs will give stretch.

Use regular 5/16-24 nuts from hardware store to trial fit rods for plastigauge. I like to check the clearance just to know. I’ve found Hepolite shells give more clearance than originals. Clevite 77 are closer to .0015”. The clearance is why I choose Clevite even though they are more costly.
Don


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Thanks everyone - sludge tube is out, will get reused as it's undamaged. Waiting on new hex plug (little to no chamfer on inside face so as not to block oil hole).

I've been reading that the later T140's (post 77-78?) used a lower torque value (22 lbs/ft) than the earlier T140'2/T120's. (28 lbs/ft ?). My plan is to torque to 22 and then measure stretch.

Cleaning is commencing today. Getting out the gun cleaning kit to clean the crank...

Cheers,

Steve


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Hi Steve, I believe the rod nut torque went to 22# in late 60s when the necked down rod bolts were introduced. I ran into installing LF Harris repro rods.

New rod nuts is another subject. I couldn’t find exactly the same nuts. Classic British Spares sells a nut that is close to original in shape & weight to originals.
LF Harris sells nuts that look similar to hardware store lock nuts. Morgo sells nuts that to me look like Harris nuts.

The Harris nut is lighter. Times 4 this effectively changes the balance factor slightly as does the Allen head sludge trap plug.


I’ve used both the Harris & CBS nuts. Both hold cap on equally as well.

Lock nuts deform the threads slightly, even used ones. That’s why I use normal nuts for trial fittings.

Thinking of sludge trap plug, many (most) of repro plugs including the Harris plug with slot have looser fitting threads. This effectively causes plug to go deeper. My plug was staked very deeply from factory. I ended up buying China tap & die from eBay. Of course that made threads even looser. Along with repro plug oil feed hole was 50% plus blocked.
World wide I could not find Genuine NOS plug. The ones sold as genuine were in fact Harris. Got refunds. End of day I ran original plug through die to clean up bent staked threads.
Tighten plug & marked oil hole location. Removed plug & notched bottom of plug at oil way. Reinstalled plug clocking oil way to notch. Used Loctite 574 on threads. Staked nut. Measure this oil way carefully as if not clear it will starve rods of oil.

Good you saved oil tube. Repro tubes often fit loose.
Don


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+1 for reusing the oil tube and big end bolts,

Since hearing about Andover Norton selling a batch of new faulty big-end bolts, I've stuck to reusing them.
Not sure if you can get them on your side of the pond but Morgo has got a good range of hex headed sludge trap plugs, ones I've used to date tightened up fine without going in too far https://www.morgo.co.uk/product/morgo-hb1-crankshaft-bung/


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Quote
Waiting on new hex plug

[Linked Image from s3files.core77.com]
had you used a drag-link socket
the chances are fairly good
that the original plug could'a been reused .
( drag-links used to be part of steering assemblies )
But really these are just big-ass slotted screwdriver tips
the can fit , or be ground to fit... big slots .

Last edited by quinten; 11/15/21 9:34 pm.
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Originally Posted by John Harvey
Not sure if you can get them on your side of the pond but Morgo has got a good range of hex headed sludge trap plugs, ones I've used to date tightened up fine without going in too far https://www.morgo.co.uk/product/morgo-hb1-crankshaft-bung/


Hi John -

That pic on the Morgo site is what I'm trying to avoid. It has a large chamfer on the inside face of the plug. This (in theory) can block the oil hole. The one I ordered doesn't have that chamfer (at least it doesn't in the photo).

Now I know these are 'stock' photos and the proof will be once I have the plug in my hands, but the two photos do illustrate the problem.

Cheers,

Steve

morgo-hb1-crankshaft-bung-1.jpg
Chamfer

70-3905-71-2800-02-TRIUMPH-650-750-TWINS-BSA-500-650-TWINS-HEX-SLUDGE-TRAP-PLUG__79999.1582321497.1280.1280.jpg
Little/no chamfer


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Originally Posted by quinten
Quote
Waiting on new hex plug

had you used a drag-link socket
the chances are fairly good
that the original plug could'a been reused .
( drag-links used to be part of steering assemblies )
But really these are just big-ass slotted screwdriver tips
the can fit , or be ground to fit... big slots .

I used a big-ass screwdriver tip from my impact set with an impact driver. The reason I'm not reusing is because I drilled some material on the plug away from the area where the punch mark was. When I re-stake the plug, there would be no material to drive the punch into. I want to punch the new plug to the crank, not punch the crank to the plug.

Cheers,

Steve


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Originally Posted by TR7RVMan
Lock nuts deform the threads slightly, even used ones. That’s why I use normal nuts for trial fittings.


And thank you, Don, for the additional info!

Cheers,

Steve

Last edited by JubeePrince; 11/15/21 11:39 pm.

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Only a thought, but I assume you’ll be fitting he plug with some type of loctite anyway, so why not install the original plug to just a slightly different position so that it can be staked in the same crank recess? A few degrees (say even 30) won’t make any significant difference to the oil feed channel.

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Interesting idea, koan. We'll see how well the new plug fits first.

Cheers,

Steve


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'82 T140LE TMA Royal
‘69 BSA Rocket 3 (patiently awaiting it's turn)
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Originally Posted by JubeePrince
Originally Posted by John Harvey
Not sure if you can get them on your side of the pond but Morgo has got a good range of hex headed sludge trap plugs, ones I've used to date tightened up fine without going in too far https://www.morgo.co.uk/product/morgo-hb1-crankshaft-bung/


Hi John -

That pic on the Morgo site is what I'm trying to avoid. It has a large chamfer on the inside face of the plug. This (in theory) can block the oil hole. The one I ordered doesn't have that chamfer (at least it doesn't in the photo).

Now I know these are 'stock' photos and the proof will be once I have the plug in my hands, but the two photos do illustrate the problem.

Cheers,

Steve
Hi Steve
It's the tapered thread size that is critical and not the chamfer that will determine how far the plug goes before tightening, arguably a big chamfer is better because it moves the end of the thread further away from blocking off the oil drilling. The Morgo hex plug I've recently fitted to my crank tightened its tapered thread in exactly the right place.
Cheers,
John

Last edited by John Harvey; 11/16/21 8:56 am.

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Correct me if I'm wrong ,
its not tapered ...
its  BSC 7/8' x 20 TPI ... also know as 7/8-20 American Extra Fine (UNEF)
[Linked Image from m.media-amazon.com]

( thank God I got my crosswalks right )

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Hi Quinten,

The honest answer is I don't know for sure and mine's back together now.

All I can say is when I assembled mine it had the feeling of a tapered thread as it tightened up but I don't know for sure. With CNC machinery these days you just specify the start and the end diameters and it's incredibly easy to make a tapered thread to any angle you choose.


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Regarding reusing rod bolts- I've had a failure that I don't think I'd have had if I used new bolts. I believe one of the bolts had been over torqued at some point before I got the motor. It came loose and hammered the crank pretty badly. New ARP bolts are available reasonably priced.
That said, in Steve's case with the bike in the family since new, there's been no monkey with a long cheater bar on those bolts and they are most likely fine.
And to take it one step further, with new steel rods available from MAP, I don't think I'd reuse unknown rods anymore either.

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Quote
The honest answer is I don't know for sure and mine's back together now.


i dont I know "for-sure" either .
My assumption has always been that the plug ... is not tapered
but the crank-hole-threads are tapered because the die was not run fully through
( more of a blind hole taper ) ... aiding in jamming the plug as it twisted deeper .
[Linked Image from threadingtoolsguide.com]

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Quick update: Not much happening, life keeps getting in the way. Did manage to get the sludge plug reinstalled (re-used original) punched and loc-tited in place, cleaned up timing gears, oil pump, and various bits and bobs.

Installed and trial fitted main bearings/races, all looks good there.

Next up: install new big end shells with Plastigauge and temporary nuts to check clearance(s). Photos and questions will be forthcoming!

Cheers,

Steve


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Hi All -

So I trial-fitted the con rods with new STD shells and green Plastigauge. I got .0015" on the timing side and between .0020-.0015" on the drive side, so I feel pretty confident that I'm good there.

Couple of questions regarding pistons and wrist pins and clips:

I've attached a photo of the piston showing a horizontal cut-away at three o'clock near the wrist pin hole. What is the purpose of that cutaway and does it matter if it faces exhaust or inlet side?

One of the wrist pins has a barely perceptible bit of radial play (drive side I think, will re-check). I have a set of new wrist pins that came with a STD piston set I have so I'm going to use the new wrist pins. Can I re-use the clips?

The clips that I removed are the ones in the first photo. If I replace, should I use the same type or can I use the type seen in the second photo.

As always, thanks for the feedback,

Steve

IMG_3099.jpeg
piston

slp-lr63_xl.jpg
My clip

jep-927-073-mw_ml.jpg
other type of clip

Last edited by JubeePrince; 12/20/21 10:10 pm.

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The purpose of the slot is to enable the fitting and removal of the 2nd type of open circlip which is the more common type used, it's important that you don't try and fit this type of clip with the open end inline with this slot as removing the clip will be really difficult, it is possible with some effort to rotate the fitted clip if you have to, but best avoided if fitted correctly with the open end at 90 degrees to the slot.

Given the choice, I would choose the 2nd type of clip over the 1st type, they have more engagement and less rounded edges and would be more secure.

The direction of the slot towards the exhaust or inlet is irrelevant.

It's always recommended that new circlips are used every time as they are a low-cost item. If for whatever reason you must reuse them, then it is possible to assess them for reuse; what you looking for are any signs that they've been overstretched inwards and undersized at the ends. If they show any signs of damage...bin them.

Last edited by John Harvey; 12/20/21 11:07 pm. Reason: More complete answer

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