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#855719 08/08/21 1:49 pm
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OK this is a tough one....

I've had Two Failures of the end feed roller bearing to stay in position. This last time the bearing was "staked" and assembled with really tough Locktite. I'm not doing the install and i've been depending on the builder to do it right but that has not worked. This is on the Hornet race bike so it's a tough duty motor running at up to 7500 rpms with MAP rods and high compression EdV pistons. So now I have to understand what the problem is and suggest a solution.

So what is happening is the the crank ends up with play. Race conditions are pushing the timing side roller bearing out to the right. I can see this because the Electric world rotor is set up flush with the outer edge of the plastic bit on the stator. After this happens I can still pull the crank so that the ignition rotor is flush with the outside of the stator but now I can push it in. I've caught it twice now so it hasn't pushed much as now I'm looking for it. The motor has not grenaded.

Also in the mix is Electrix World Ignition I'm using which is different from the other ignitions (Pazon Boyer) in how it attaches to the crank. I like the ignition because its simple and stand alone and I don't need a battery. But it's on the end of the crank on the primary side on its own sliding taper and it doesn't translate pressure to the roller bearing Primary side. If this was a bush in the timing side motor then the motor would be shimmed to 5 thousands and I would be worried but this is a roller bearing conversion and the crank is locked to the timing side by the Thrust bearing and the nut on the end of the worm gear on the RH side.

So are my assumptions correct?

Should the crank be able to grow 5 thousands towards the primary? This needs to be measured before the crank is locked down on the RH side right? If there is 0 thou clearence then the crank as it heats up will push the bearing when it grows under race conditions as it heats right?

Should the motor be shimmed for 5 thousands anyway and should the shims be located on the RH side between the crank and the timing side roller bearing?


Thanks in advance as I try to understand this problem and look for a way forward.

If anybody has a general schematic of the crank bits of an end feed conversion I would love to see it.

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I’m not sure of if this is possible with the electric world setup. However I’d shim the crank until it was central within the cases. Then mount an outrigger bearing outboard of the electric world. Or if possible, outboard of the primary then the electric world outboard of that.

You’d scrap the combination bearing. I’ve dealt/seen two and found both to have lost their balls. I’d change the KNIB5907 with an RNA4907. It’s a needle roller only bearing and dimensionally the same as the needle roller section of what you have now. Just without the extra with needed for the combination. Or you can refit the combination bearing without the balls and the outer ring and fit an unmachined crank pinion.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

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71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (now rebuilt)
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68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

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Loctite will not hold steel bearings in a regularly heated aluminium case case, the different expansion rates break the bond down over repeated heat cycles. Not sure what interference fit if any would work on a thin wall needle bearing so I would pin it into place or weld some alloy to one side of the housing for the bearing to butt up against. An outrigger ball bearing on the drive side would stop the crank moving from side to side.

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I did the end-feedconversion using a needleroller only. Axial setup is the std-bsa thrustbearing. Never had any problems since ‘84. I’ll try to post some pictures later this day

Last edited by lemans; 08/08/21 2:47 pm.
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Hi

I'll throw my tuppence worth in. Although I've no experience of just using a needle roller Brg, as I have always used the combination Brg KNIB5097 in racing sidecars reving to 7.5k and never had any failures of the Brg's.
Simple job, dump the bush, machine out the timing casing leaving a lip on the outside face. I always put in a alloy plug to isolate the old oil path to the timing bush. Install the outer into the cases and the inner onto the crank (remembering to grind a couple flats to ease removal later).
Install the crank into the cases, install the ball thrust retainer, oil pump drive etc and check for crank centralisation.

With regards to your needle roller Brg, it sounds like the timing case has been machined out from the timing side, thus not having positioning lip left to control the Brg. I'd suggest that you use a Ball Brg on the drive side and shims to control the crank positioning. Your ignition system will not allow an out rigger Brg to be utilised.

John

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Companies such as SKF make angle rings for roller bearings which are a removable thrust lip, duplicating the trust lip in the outer race. Instead of using the small ball combination needle/ball bearing you could use this on the drive roller to control the crank position.
https://www.skf.com/webpim/0901d196803b7ddf/0901d196803b7ddf.svg
The NUP bearing has thrust edges on both sides of the outer ring and one side of the inner.
I do not know if they make these for foot and finger bearings.

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here some pictures

1. dumped the bush and machined casing to size leaving a small lip to prevent the bearing floating outwards
[Linked Image from swf-ignitionsystems.nl]

2. picture from inside, bearing used is an INA NKI 35/20
[Linked Image from swf-ignitionsystems.nl]

3. axial setup as per BSA, as the bush is gone the slab is somewhat thicker.
[Linked Image from swf-ignitionsystems.nl]

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Originally Posted by kommando
Loctite will not hold steel bearings in a regularly heated aluminium case case, the different expansion rates break the bond down over repeated heat cycles. Not sure what interference fit if any would work on a thin wall needle bearing so I would pin it into place or weld some alloy to one side of the housing for the bearing to butt up against. An outrigger ball bearing on the drive side would stop the crank moving from side to side.

One and a half thou interference fit. Copy the Loctite heat cycle breakage.

Originally Posted by lemans
I did the end-feedconversion using a needleroller only. Axial setup is the std-bsa thrustbearing. Never had any problems since ‘84. I’ll try to post some pictures later this day

Makes sense to me. I like your "lip" on the case for the install. I'm beyond that as the case has been machined through. Yes and keep the stock shims on the primary side. Interesting. I wonder if the Electrix World Rotor on the Collared taper will work this way though. Will the pressure from the outer nut at 50 ft-lbs (?) translate through the tapered rotor coller to the crank against the primary roller bearing and the shim cup?

To make this work I might have to go to the Pazon Digital and lock the crank against the primary bearing with a shim cup set at 5 thousands.

Last edited by Semper Gumby; 08/08/21 9:13 pm.
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Originally Posted by JER.Hill
With regards to your needle roller Brg, it sounds like the timing case has been machined out from the timing side, thus not having positioning lip left to control the Brg. I'd suggest that you use a Ball Brg on the drive side and shims to control the crank positioning. Your ignition system will not allow an out rigger Brg to be utilised.

John

But the Ball Bearing on the drive side doesn't lock the crank. Both the early A65 motors (Ball bearing primary) and the late A65 motors (Roller bearing primary) have the same shims and retainer cup set up. It looks like it the wall of the crank and the outer crank nut that locks the crank in place or am I missing something?

My understanding is the roller bearing is the more durable set up?

Last edited by Semper Gumby; 08/08/21 9:29 pm.
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The ball race on the drive side will locate the crank that way.
I used one in the a10 cranked race motor i recently built,
they are not as long lasting as a roller but at 4 or 5 meetings
a year it will probably last at least 5 years. Set the crank up
and centre with spacers/shims first, i only allow a thou or two
as the cases grow so much when hot.
As a remedy for your one you could either use a simple
bronze thrust like Lemans suggests or use a flanged combination
type needle race on the timing side, with those you don't use
the radial roller thrust part supplied, but just a simple bronze ring.
I had that setup in one of my old race engines with a norton crank.
David's suggestion of an NUP roller race is another way but they
are only available in metric sizes.
7500 isn't giving one of these a hard time, as rule 8000 was the
bloodline on the short stroke motors.

Last edited by NickL; 08/08/21 11:20 pm.
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I could not stop a combination bearing from moving so I ditched it for a straight heavy series NKIS30 butted against a shoulder on the outside. And made a plate for the end of the crank with 16005 narrow series ball race to set end float. But I do that to centralize rods in the bores and make sure not to alter spacers. If the T/side end of crank is flush with the case I think it's correct.

This shows the bearing and carrier. It's a fairly easy fit using a std crank. This has a circlip to locate the bearing. Then any problem is outside the cases and easy to access. Not that I have had one. The nut on the crank just locks the crank to this bearing the drive side roller runs away from the lip.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

I don't know how to draw it up to program a cnc but if someone did it would make it easy for people to get one made. The additional advantage is it resists crank flexing and misaligning the primary.

For timing you just drill the plate then set it on the timing you want and use the drill and put a dimple in the stator. Shine the light op that hole and watch the dimple. You see it for a while so can move it back and forth a bit. For a 90 just mark the stator twice. Different size dimples or paint them.

Ben ordered a few bearings from China. NKIS30 5 for around $54 free postage I think. (The boat is pretty slow though.) They will be std rather than c3. The c3 allows a little more crush. I had a std one a little tight when fitted and still tight after 8years or so when the D/s roller was worn out. I fitted a c3 after that it fitted better. It probably expanded when hot, or didn't matter.

Last edited by Mark Parker; 08/10/21 5:45 am.

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Thanks for the replys. I'm going to lock the crank with the standard set up. I'm binning the Electrix world ignition for the Digital pazon and its rev limiter and a Lithium battery. So I'm shimimg the crank on the primary side and letting the crank float in the roller bearing on the timing side. I'll post up on how it goes.

It's amazing how many different ways there are of doing this mod.

Nickl - I'm really curious about your comment vis a vi cases growing so much when really hot in that you use only about a thousand or two. I've heard from a number of sources that race bike cranks should be shimmed more on the order of 3-5 thou. Have you measured this? (and how?) Do you have data? So you are saying that the crank grows with heat but the case grow more?

Also considering putting on an oil cooler. I've got an old simple Lockhart cooler on the bench but I also have a thicker BMW R1100 cooler as well...

Last edited by Semper Gumby; 08/10/21 1:53 pm.
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The cases always grow more than the crank, if you check a hot engine the
end float is always around 5-10 thou. Alley expands more than steel. I've
heard of blokes thrashing them from cold and pushing the bearing out of
the primary side but i've never had the problem , always warm the engine
before serious riding. All my race engines were and are assembled with
around 1 thou of endfloat.
If you just shim the primary side you will still allow the t/s bearing to be
pushed out unless you use a ball race on the d/s. The roller race has a
single lip and only prevents axial movement one way.
You are quiet right, there are numerous ways of doing the job, John's
method is the normal and probably the most straightforward method.
Mark's suggestion of a crank outrigger type is another approach, much
easier done with late type cases.

An oil cooler is required if you are going to do the TT or similar, for 99%
of racing the oil only just gets to a good operating temp, boils off water
and flows really well. I had a cooler on my outfit but even here racing in
40 deg i had it blanked off, half a dozen laps of a few km circuit doesn't
demand an oil cooler. As the oil heats the delta t goes with it so it gets
effectively more cooling the hotter the oil is. Even good old mineral oil is
ok at 85 degs +.. All these super duper synthetics go much higher.

Last edited by NickL; 08/10/21 11:49 pm.
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If you are changing ignitions doesn't that make it easier to control end float with an exta bearing, Or have you cut stuff away?


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When designing the oil cooler for the Trident the aim was for an oil temperature (mineral oil) of 85C (185F) at the extreme operating conditions.
This temperature is hot enough to drive off condensation but not so hot that the lubricating properties of the oil start to taper off.
As Nick rightly says this means that the vast majority of bikes are vastly overcooled for the vast majority of the time.
The correct answer of course is to fit an oil thermostat----this gives you the best of both worlds.

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Something I've found with locktite. You can fit a bearing with it, there is a green colored one for that, but if the case is hot and bearing cold you can over crush the bearing and take up clearance, so the other half doesn't even fit. So just a smear all around can add a little shrink fit with hot and cold bits. But the combination bearing can move and even with screws theoretically locking it in they didn't work. And splitting cases is a lot of work.


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The advantage of the flanged type needle bearing is that not only will it not press out,
you can grind a small channel into the flange and put in an anti rotation dowel.
C3 types are harder to get hold of in any of the needle races and as Mark says, fitting
them with loctite may make them a little tight. You can have a few tenths taken off if the
crank is being ground with the inner fitted though.
I don't like using the shim and cup arrangement, always make up spacers, but that's just me.


Bearing NKXR+IR page B162 open type. use 35mm id 52 od or 30/47
https://www.ntn-snr.com/sites/default/files/2017-03/needle_roller_bearings_en.pdf

Last edited by NickL; 08/11/21 7:36 am.
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Hi

Interesting Nick, a few variations that could be used to do the job. However having used the INA 5907 combi Brg without them moving or failing on me over the years, I'll stick with them. Knowing how to install them in the cases and crank, changing now would mean a possible learning curve that I can do without.

regards

John

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Originally Posted by Semper Gumby
One and a half thou interference fit. Copy the Loctite heat cycle breakage.

1.5 thou interference works with the normal sized ball and roller bearing on the driveside, but as your bearing walked its not enough for the needle bearing. The issue with increasing it is that the thinner wall may collapse and you lose the interference and lose internal clearance in the bearing as well so back to square one and a further step backwards. Keeping the 1.5 thou clearance but using a physical pin or screw to hold it in place would be the best option, as used on Norton main bearings in racing to stop them rotating.

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Originally Posted by JER.Hill
Hi

Interesting Nick, a few variations that could be used to do the job. However having used the INA 5907 combi Brg without them moving or failing on me over the years, I'll stick with them. Knowing how to install them in the cases and crank, changing now would mean a possible learning curve that I can do without.

regards

John

I ended up using the NRXR flanged unit when a set of cases with the standard combo bearing got the lip broken off.
It means you still have to use spacers etc but proved reliable/strong. The radial race can't be used with it.
After just doing that 650 with the standard combo unit, i agree, they do make like easier. My brother always used
the single direction version and preferred to set them up with spacers but each to his own.

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Hi Nick

Yes an excellent idea when the lip has been broken off, lets you salvage the crankcases. I also think this is probably what the original post is requiring to fix his issue, although he never said what the case Brg OD measurement was.

Old dog and new trick eh.

John

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I've never tried locktite on the needle roller, I imagine it would close up easily. I didn't realize there were so many bearing types. There is also a roller that captures the crank on the drive side.

But I like the extra little carrier and bearing as it does a few jobs.

That deflector cast into the R/h case can be removed with a roller if I understand its function. Stopping spillage from the bush over oiling the R/h cylinder. I cut it almost right off, I leave a little because it may add a little strength.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


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As an end feed user I will add my tuppence-worth.The last time my motor was apart I replaced my combi ball needle roller Ts brg.
this was not straight forward the new bearing had subtly different dimensions fro the old one
, I ended up lapping material from the drive side end of the bearing housing to give clearance with the crank cheek, I also had to install a shim between the crank cheek and the needle inner race to take preload off the ball race.
in the case of the OPs bearing being drawn toward the drive side I wonder if the primary-drive side is shimmed correctly perhaps a shim between the front sprocket and the oil seal spacer would encourage the crank to wards the timing sid rather than the drive side.My motor is not highly tuned ( 9:1 stock cam and carb size) , it is seldom revved beyond 7k.


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There are a few differences between manufacturers of those bearings
the original INA ones are not quite the same as the NTN ones, there
are also some chinese copies around now which are different again.
I tended to use NTN ad they were and are more easily available here.
They have proved very good.


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