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Al Eckstadt
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John is making progress with the sparky foot. see pics

Starter mounted timing side  view.jpg Starter mounted timing side  view.jpg Starter mounted showing carb  clearance.jpg Starter mounting from rear.jpg Starter mounted drive side  view.jpg

71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
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I really like that!

Is the head mounted there ontop of a 750 or long stroke (taller) barrel? Im wondering as I think a single carb head will have the carb sat more square and possibly a touch lower???


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68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (now rebuilt)
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Very nice looking set up.


1968 BSA Firebird
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its a short barrel. Big bore 732 for B44 pistons, JH was checking clearance around carbs.


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This was probably explained in another thread, but can someone describe the drive mechanism of the starter?


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
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John can correct me when I am wrong. Its a starter motor with a Bendix, this throws out a gear to engage on a large gear around the clutch drum which is a triplex basket with the inner row of teeth machined off and a starter ring pressed on. I think the starter is the same used on HDs, could be wrong we talked about this a while back , might be off a Bee Em,same idea anyway, much like a Sportster XLH model in principal. These are fairly backfire proof compared with some systems. The earlier thread has pictures of the inside. This has kept John thinking and welding , the chaincase was cut open and a large flange welded on after the whole side was supported with a temp steel plate to minimise distortion. The whole lump is a collection of items that needed repair, the motor mounts were savaged, the cases are not matched , the outer TS has been cut for clutch access ,, head is an early small port, not sure if John has any guts for it yet, will probably get an end feed and case alignectomy, very much a test bed proof of concept.

The barrels look extra long because the head is missing the bottom fin.


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It all looks good from here and very interested to hear of its progress also.

Has there been any ideas into having it work with any type of clutch? (IE Bob Newby Belt Drive? )


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68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (now rebuilt)
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If you can get it to work then the Bendix is the best way, otherwise you are relying on a sprag clutch. They take up room and are not reliable, they end up either slipping, seizing or destroyed by backfiring. They also restrict you to motorcycle starters which are low in power, max is around 1.1kw. You can get away with the lower power by gearing but this adds to the complexity, being able to use a Car type starter gives you the option to go to 2kw. You can get the Duplex Laverda chain from 'Andy the Chainman' (who is no longer Andy) and that gives the room for the drive gear on the clutch.

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Sprags are a right royal pain even when stopping the engine, the pistons bounce off compression and rotate the crank backwards, the sprag engages stressing the starter drive train. You cannot bump start because you cannot pull the bike back onto compression.
3 class acts amongst bikes Kawasaki Z900/1000 aircooled, Suzuki GS1000/GSX1100 and Aprilia RSV Mille, the Achilles heel on all three is the sprag


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John put me straight on stuff today, its a BMW motor unit, there is an idler gear to fill the space between the starter ring and the bendix gear. The idler gear is in constant mesh with the starter ring, only driven by the motor when the Bendix throws out. There is a gear housing with idler gear carved out of alloy uniting the flange and the motor .
John tried an HD lump but it was too lumpy, He also test fitted a single carb head, and had reasonable clearance at the carb banjos. He reckons it could be done without an idler, but , much larger case surgery to clear the motor bulk would be needed.
Pics of tbolt head and starter ring with intermediate gear.

ES with 750 barrel and T:bolt head  showing carb clearance.jpg ES with 750 barrel and T:bolt  head.jpg Starter ring gear and intermediate  gear engagement.jpg

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That appears to be a Norton clutch basket. Presumably John used the whole hub and bearing arrangement to keep the basket from wobbling about when the pressure plate is lifted?
From the look of the idler to ring gear diameters, the idler runs about 1.25 times the crank speed?
I think the reason manufacturers go to sprag starter drive is they do not need a throwout solenoid and linkage.

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Hi

Thanks Gavin for putting up the photos and explanation. I'll try and answer some of the questions I saw above, from the bottom up:

David: Yes a Commando clutch and reason is as you presumed. Ring gear OD 187mm, Idler gear OD 62mm.

Andy: In total agreement with your views on a sprag clutch arrangement.

Kommando: In agreement with your comments.

Allan: The T/bolt head is sitting on 750 barrel with no gaskets, a 650 or long stroke barrel with gaskets would lift the carb approximately 10mm. I haven't considered a Newby clutch. I have one on the outfit and shall give it a quick look and let you know, but from memory the Newby sits further back in the primary case that the BSA/Norton clutch.

Feel free to ask away.

John

Last edited by JER.Hill; 03/27/19 8:22 am.
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Many thanks John.

A couple more questions if I may, I’m assuming that if anyone would like this they would need to send both crank cases and gearbox cassette and clutch basket to you?

The other is, will you be providing a cover for the solenoid/bendix(?) and starter motor? Just thinking of any fuel from the carb being tickled may drip in that direction?

Which ever way I’m quite excited about this project and would like this on the 823 motor.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (now rebuilt)
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I too am very interested in this project John.. Many thanks for taking the time and effort to come up with a leckky boot!!


Just a few Beezers..

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John,
Has there been any more progress with this?


1971 BSA A65 Lightning "Bitsa"
1966 BSA A65 "Beezuki" with GT550 two-stroke engine
1974 Triumph T150 830cc
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Hi

I'm sorry to say there has not been much progress. I'm loth to take the 845 engine out of my bike to set it up with the E/S motor and re-jig the wiring to suit. Really what I need is a pre-OIF rolling chassis to fit it into and use it as a test bed.
Anyone out there able to help!

regards

John

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You just missed a give-away "dry" frame and A65 engine (complete) for FREE...


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+1
No kidding. That Free A65 was the perfect answer. Off course the cost to get it to Far-Away would kill the idea…..
There has to be an idle A65 project bike near JER.Hill, there is ALWAYS an idle A65 project bike in a shed.


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I've got one, but unfortunately it's OIF, so no good it seems.


1971 BSA A65 Lightning "Bitsa"
1966 BSA A65 "Beezuki" with GT550 two-stroke engine
1974 Triumph T150 830cc
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Hi Peter

Perhaps not, as I only have a pre OIF these were where I got the measurements to ensure the starter clearance. My email is [email protected], would it be possible for you to send me a photo (its crap trying to post photos on here) of the rear engine mounts in the frame and a measurement from the back tube to the engine mount top bolt centre.
The more I think about it, the more I think it will fit.

Thank you for your interest and offer.

John

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Hi

Just to keep everyone who maybe interested. Peter sent me a measurement from the rear frame down tube on the OIF to the rear of the engine, and sent a few photo's back and forth, there might be a couple mm in it, so we'll recheck the measurements and I'll have a look to see if I can rotate the starter to lift the solenoid a little.
The reason for the solenoid position at present was to accommodate the single carb models, plenty room using the twin carbs to rotate the starter and lift the solenoid.

keep you all posted

John

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Having both oif and pre oif I’d say there was more room at the back of the motor on the oif than the pre oif, the frame tube comes straight up unlike the pre oif.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (now rebuilt)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

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Hi

another update for those interested. I can rotate the starter motor enough to get clearance between the back down tube on the OIF and starter motor solenoid. I'll just have to drilled tap new motor mounting holes, and change the head over to a twin carb model. So we might be able to get something going here and finish off the project.
Sent off new photo's to Peter showing the new measurements.

Keep you all posted on developments

John

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Your work on this project is very interesting John and I'm looking forward to hearing how it progresses. thumbsup


Just a few Beezers..


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