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Nick H #854415 07/22/21 11:01 pm
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No, two 6 volt coils, Lucas 2 Ohm.

Here's how I wired:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Nick H; 07/22/21 11:06 pm.

1966 BSA Lightning
(2) 1967 Triumph "Choppa"s
1974 Indian ME125
1960 Harley Servi-Car
1952 Harley 45" G motor in Paugho frame project
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Nick H #854419 07/23/21 12:41 am
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On the face of it, the wiring looks fine.
You could check the Boyer stator plate simply with a
ohm meter, or a small battery and a light bulb it should
have continuity. They do sometimes break at the joints
but it's unusual.
If the unit is actually switching and sparking by brushing
the sensor leads together, i doubt it's the box that's faulty.
Make sure the engine is well earthed as unlike the dual
coil the sparks are generated between earth and ht.
With a dual coil the sparks are generated across the coil's
output not with reference to earth.

Just my 2c

Nick H #854428 07/23/21 2:25 am
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...besides the possible electrical problem; chromed carburetors is a good way to cry a lot with the many hassles incorporated.

Nick H #854445 07/23/21 7:11 am
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Originally Posted by Nick H
No, two 6 volt coils, Lucas 2 Ohm.

Here's how I wired:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
The only issue with your wiring diagram isn’t with the Boyer but where the reg rec connects to the loom in relation with the switch. You want the red wire to be the other side of the switch (same side as the battery) otherwise a decent charging system will continue to power the ignition after you have turned the switch off.

I’d have tried the twin output coil before ditching the Boyer. (I’m also kinda intrigued how the points are not cancelling each other out when used with your twin output coil, probably the degrees of dwell is sufficient on the cam to allow this?)
I’ve had issues with some coils before now where they just go bad after a short period of time. Following that I only have the odd old wassel coil and PVL coils of which I now stick with.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (now rebuilt)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Allan G #854448 07/23/21 8:18 am
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Hi Allan, Nick,
Originally Posted by Allan G
only issue with your wiring diagram
Uh-uh. Other issue is, for "negative ground", the fuse is on the wrong 'side' of the battery ... non-electric-start bike, the main or single fuse should always, always, always be connected to the battery "ground" terminal.

Reason is:-

. by definition, any and all random metal parts of the bike are connected to the battery "ground" terminal;

. something metal touching the 'not ground' battery terminal itself and any random metal part of the bike ...

... the fuse in its current position cannot prevent the short; facepalm

... otoh, main or single fuse in the single solitary wire actually connected to the battery "ground" terminal will pop straight away. thumbsup

Originally Posted by Allan G
where the reg rec connects to the loom in relation with the switch. You want the red wire to be the other side of the switch
Ime, you want the Pod (any reg./rec.) DC wires connected directly to the corresponding battery terminals. The alternator's for charging the battery, for why would you connect it anywhere else? confused

If you must try and get away with a solitary fuse, reg./rec. DC wires connected directly to the corresponding battery terminals, a short anywhere else on the bike will at least stop the bike, because both battery and alternator will be isolated. thumbsup

However, short in the reg./rec. itself still won't be protected. thumbsdown I just put a second fuse in one of the wires between battery and reg./rec.

Hth.

Regards,

Nick H #854468 07/23/21 2:39 pm
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Thanks for the very helpful comments!

Allan, we went through my reg/rec wiring location once before on my BSA. Thank you again I'll try to get it through my thick skull.

I think dual coils are fairly commonly used with points. One condenser, two? Here's the one that was working on this engine when I bought it (!):
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
It's only 4 inches tall and has no writing on it so I don't know what it is.

I'm thinking now that I may have had a problem with my plug wires with the Lucas coils or the coils themselves. Both quite old.
The spark that I was getting did not look very strong.
I'll stop blaming the Boyer.

Stuart thank you for the education on fusing. I'll make the adjustment for sure.

Originally Posted by reverb
...besides the possible electrical problem; chromed carburetors is a good way to cry a lot with the many hassles incorporated.
I've heard it said that chroming an AMAL does it no good but I do know of one person with chromed Concentrics that work fine.
I didn't have these Monoblocs chromed, I got them this way but it is a flashy effect for this bike.
I suppose I should post a photo of the bike.


1966 BSA Lightning
(2) 1967 Triumph "Choppa"s
1974 Indian ME125
1960 Harley Servi-Car
1952 Harley 45" G motor in Paugho frame project
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Nick H #854555 07/24/21 8:22 am
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Originally Posted by quinten
I'd ignore the advice about moving the fuse to the negative side .
The argument Is a tempest in a teapot .( which side of the egg do you open )
( electrical convention defaults the fuse to the switch side )... where you have it .
And where every new car and motorcycle made has it .

Not quite “every.”

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


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Originally Posted by triton thrasher
Originally Posted by quinten
I'd ignore the advice about moving the fuse to the negative side .
The argument Is a tempest in a teapot .( which side of the egg do you open )
( electrical convention defaults the fuse to the switch side )... where you have it .
And where every new car and motorcycle made has it .

Not quite “every.”

there is always an exception ... and an exception to the exception .
the outlier is just that .
I think that diagram is from 1966 , used one year only , not exactly a modern vehicle .
why didnt Triumph stick with the arrangement ?
it looks like it should work ? .... but Triumph wasn't satisfied with it

Possibly because
the fuse at the battery isnt the only ground point ... so doesn't break all connections
whats not shown on the diagram is
the old finned rectifier had its own ground .

Originally Posted by john healy
... and suggest that the fuse should have been put on the ground side of the battery. Well, in 1966 they did just that, but they discovered: if the fuse failed while the bike was running the bike would keep running and damage the rectifier. The next year they change the harness with the fuse on the feed side of the battery

Last edited by quinten; 07/24/21 12:23 pm.
quinten #854573 07/24/21 1:22 pm
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Originally Posted by quinten
Possibly because
the fuse at the battery isnt the only ground point ... so doesn't break all connections
whats not shown on the diagram is
the old finned rectifier had its own ground .

Originally Posted by john healy
... and suggest that the fuse should have been put on the ground side of the battery. Well, in 1966 they did just that, but they discovered: if the fuse failed while the bike was running the bike would keep running and damage the rectifier. The next year they change the harness with the fuse on the feed side of the battery

I don’t understand that. I probably need Stuart to explain it!

Yes, a bike can keep running on the charging system with the ignition switch on and the battery isolated, such as by a blown fuse. I don’t see what difference it can make whereabout the battery circuit is broken: near the live terminal or near the return terminal.

I must take a look at the later Triumph diagrams.


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Nick H #854574 07/24/21 1:31 pm
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Quinten- Are you saying the red wire from the rectifier went to the battery return terminal in parallel with another red return/frame earth wire, which had a fuse in line?

That would be very silly.


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Nick H #854575 07/24/21 1:38 pm
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Hi Nick,

Regrettably, as often, Quinten's 'argument' contains a number of basic logical and technical failures ... facepalm

Originally Posted by quinten
the old finned rectifier had its own ground .
Originally Posted by john healy
... and suggest that the fuse should have been put on the ground side of the battery. Well, in 1966 they did just that, but they discovered: if the fuse failed while the bike was running the bike would keep running and damage the rectifier. The next year they change the harness with the fuse on the feed side of the battery
In quoting JH, Quinten fails to remember your wiring diagram only a few posts earlier in the thread:-
Originally Posted by Nick H
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
... which clearly shows "POD TRONIX" ... like the vast majority of reg./rec., the Podtronics doesn't "ground" through its mounting ... its DC wires connected directly to the corresponding battery terminals, a fuse next to either battery terminal, if the fuse blows, it will isolate both battery and reg./rec from the rest of the bike, which will stop.

What a fuse next to battery +ve on a "negative ground" bike won't do is - as I posted before - protect the harness from something metal touching the battery +ve terminal and a random metal bit of bike. thumbsdown

Otoh, a fuse next to battery -ve on a "negative ground" bike will protect the wiring from that short. thumbsup And it'll protect the harness in the event of a short anywhere else in the harness. thumbsup

Originally Posted by quinten
electrical convention defaults the fuse to the switch side )
And where every new car and motorcycle made has it .
No idea on this "convention". confused Perhaps Quentin will enlighten us from his vast expertise?

However, his logical and technical failure here is every new car has and most new motorcycles have an electric starter. That present, "ground" cannot be fused because the current used by the starter far exceeds any other component's consumption, any fuse would have to have such a high rating, it couldn't protect from a short anywhere else in the harness.

It's specifically why I posted, "non-electric-start bike" in my post #854448 ...

Originally Posted by quinten
I'd ignore the advice about moving the fuse to the negative side .
What Quinten is also ignoring are the regular posts in BritBike and every other old-Britbike internet forum detailing wiring damage caused precisely as I've described, "something metal touching the battery +ve terminal and a random metal bit of bike". While I'm sure you aren't heavy enough to bend the seat pan to the battery terminals whistle , you never charge the battery without removing it from the bike and any tools kept under the seat are wrapped securely, you perhaps don't always remove the battery when doing a 'quick fix' under the seat ...? In the event of wiring damage due to an unprotected short, I wonder if Quentin's offering to nip over and fix your bike's wiring ...

Quentin's and my advice posted, you choose?

Hth.

Regards,

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Hi TT,
Originally Posted by triton thrasher
Quinten- Are you saying the red wire from the rectifier went to the battery return terminal in parallel with another red return/frame earth wire, which had a fuse in line?
Uh-uh, the problem is the old one - Lucas trying to fuse two separate power sources (battery and alternator/rectifier) with one fuse. facepalm

What neither Quentin nor JH (curiously) have remembered is moving the single fuse to between battery -ve and the rectifier never stopped:-
Originally Posted by john healy
if the fuse failed while the bike was running the bike would keep running
Hth.

Regards,

Stuart #854577 07/24/21 2:00 pm
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a tempest in a tea pot .

the fused side is not part of the original posters problem .
he has a fuse in circuit .

Haven't the foggiest idea of why Stuart would bring it up .
it may be a personal Crusade ( like ; I shall stake my claim on an obscure wiring point ! )
i cant say .
but i choose not to subscribe .
big deal , so what .

if Stuart wants to talk fuse side to death , on a post that has nothing to do with fusing ,
that I suppose is his issue .

quinten #854583 07/24/21 3:31 pm
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Quinten,
Originally Posted by quinten
the fused side is not part of the original posters problem
You have not read the thread. Post #854411:-
Originally Posted by Nick H
it's points again on this one.
First kick. Bang she's running.
Originally Posted by quinten
Haven't the foggiest idea of why Stuart would bring it up
You have not understood the thread. Post #854415:-
Originally Posted by Nick H
Here's how I wired:
Originally Posted by quinten
if Stuart wants to talk fuse side to death ,
I don't. I wanted simply to post my opinion (based on first-hand experience of fixing the problems) and advice and leave it for Nick The OP and any other reader to decide for themselves.

However, you persistently couldn't be bothered to read nor understand what'd been posted by others, consequently persistently posted drivel and nonsense ...

Originally Posted by quinten
it may be a personal Crusade
I suspect anyone understanding the thread will know who's on crusade ....

Originally Posted by quinten
i choose not to subscribe .
Three posts - albeit of logical and technical cobblers - says otherwise.

Choosing "not to subscribe" after having been shot down in flames not once but several times is too late ...

Nick H #854588 07/24/21 5:45 pm
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Yeah, time out. Agree to disagree or whatever.
The bike runs with points. I'll get the carbs tuned in and deal with random leaks, etc and then try the Boyer again
with some new coils and plug wires.
And I'll be making some wiring changes thanks to the helpful posters here.
Im hoping with some vent holes in the electrics/tool box they will be cooled enough.

Last edited by Nick H; 07/24/21 5:46 pm.

1966 BSA Lightning
(2) 1967 Triumph "Choppa"s
1974 Indian ME125
1960 Harley Servi-Car
1952 Harley 45" G motor in Paugho frame project
Nick H #854589 07/24/21 6:14 pm
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Nick, if the points are running good, I’d stick with them until a time that you find that the persistent servicing and retiming of them either becomes a chore or takes up too much time when you have other commitments. For me it was the latter and I went onto the electronic ignition.

Just be sure you have the 12° degree advance AAU and not the 11°. The 11° is the 4 ca type and the cause for many an engine failure.

Last edited by Allan G; 07/24/21 6:16 pm.

Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (now rebuilt)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

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Nick H #854592 07/24/21 8:13 pm
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Thanks, Yeah I'll do that for a while.

The problem may have been my plug wires. The Emgo dual coil is newish and has it's own wires. I don't think they are solid copper but they are working.

There is no continuity between the 6 volt Lucas coils outer case and the wire connectors if that is the shorting quinten was mentioning.
But they are old and needed a lot of corrosion cleaned from the HT connection points. Do coils otherwise wear out or weaken?


1966 BSA Lightning
(2) 1967 Triumph "Choppa"s
1974 Indian ME125
1960 Harley Servi-Car
1952 Harley 45" G motor in Paugho frame project
Nick H #854615 07/25/21 4:25 am
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Every 'modern' bike has a multi-circuit fuse box, doesn't leave one guessing which element caused the one fuse to blow.
As a minimum these days I use a 15A on the common lead and a 5A in the circuit to the coils on the EI. Since the common lead goes directly from the battery to the single point on the frame, from which all other common wires originate, I don't see how the frame is still energized if the fuse blows.


Knowledge speaks. Wisdom listens.

72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
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Nick H #854926 07/29/21 9:47 pm
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The motorcycle in question
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


1966 BSA Lightning
(2) 1967 Triumph "Choppa"s
1974 Indian ME125
1960 Harley Servi-Car
1952 Harley 45" G motor in Paugho frame project
Nick H #854986 07/30/21 9:14 pm
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Take it away, it makes me feel sick


BSA B31 500 "Stargazer"
Greeves 200 "Blue Meanie"
Greeves 350
Greeves 360
GM500 sprint bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500 "Llareggub"
Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
'35 & '36 OK Supreme
Kawasaki ZZR1400 "Kuro no senshi"
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Nick H #854987 07/30/21 9:34 pm
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Originally Posted by Nick H
The motorcycle in question
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


That’s a tragedy.


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Nick H #854988 07/30/21 10:24 pm
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Put the EI back on, that way you can't ride it.

Nick H #855016 07/31/21 4:20 am
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Not my cuppa tea, still it's nicely done.
I'm guilty of building a few when I worked at a shop run by a retired Devil's Disciple. But, he hated EI.


Knowledge speaks. Wisdom listens.

72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
Nick H #855045 07/31/21 2:42 pm
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I love the comments. Got a similar reaction on a Facebook Triumph Chopper page.
But this is a site for purists who admire stock motorcycles, not Choppa's.
You won't like my other Triumph either.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Nick H; 07/31/21 2:45 pm.

1966 BSA Lightning
(2) 1967 Triumph "Choppa"s
1974 Indian ME125
1960 Harley Servi-Car
1952 Harley 45" G motor in Paugho frame project
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Each to their own. It’s not my cup of tea but it’s not my money either, so it’s none of my business.

I think if you’ve asked for help over a certain topic then that’s what should be assisted on.

You might be interested in the specials board on this site, it seems to have gone quiet of late but was bristling with info on specials/choppers/bobbers etc at one time.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (now rebuilt)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

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