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Originally Posted by Lannis
Yes. "In the UK....." Bit of a different thing.

If I retired to the Cornish coast or the Isle of Man or a Kentish village, I wouldn't own a petrol car .... The buses and trains go everywhere, and an electric bike would probably take me up the High Street far enough to get groceries ....

Lannis

The risk of travelling in close proximity to undesirables is sufficient reason not to use public transport.

ICE = freedom to travel where you want, when you want and with whom you want.

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Originally Posted by R Moulding
Much as I love the internal combustion engine we can only keep wrapping plasters around it for so long. I've watched all those plasters be applied over the years, dealt with the issues that have arisen from them and had to explain the increasing repair costs to customers. I don't necessarily think that EV's are the answer but they may well be a useful stop gap until we find one.

Rotary engines (including turbines) should have been answer, none of that nonsensical reversing of pistons several thousand time a minute.

Are engine repair costs an issue for most modern ICE owners? Don't most modern ICE engines outlast the vehicle?

Looking ahead, I wonder if Tesla will remove legacy technical support from older vehicles at some stage "Sorry mate, can't fix it, it's obsolete." larger non-automotive electric motors are generally robust and can generally be refurbished, but technical support for obsolete, non-automotive electric motor control systems ("drives") can be a problem in my experience.

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Originally Posted by Dibnah
Originally Posted by PINEMONKEY
The moment some bright kid cracks the code on battery efficiency the ICE will be as dead as dirigibles and all the curmudgeonly whinging and good old days lamentations won't bring it back. If we, as a species, are smart enough perhaps we can progress past digging up things to burn to create cheap and easy energy. you say But, gauging by recent events and attitudes I'm not holding my breath (except when I pass someone not wearing a mask in the grocery store). Ennyhoo, I'm out! I gotta go rub some whale oil on my virtue wand, if you know what I mean!
Keep ROLLING COAL, y'all!

Cheap and easy energy? Yes please! Why wouldn't any right-thinking person want such a thing?

Oh, I don't know... maybe the idea of continuing to pump our environment full of the products of combusting fossil fuels isn't that appealing to some folks. UNDESIRABLE folks, no doubt... WRONG-THINKING? Certainly. Something my grandfather (You most definitely wouldn't want to ride a bus with him! He plowed with a mule!) once said to me that really stuck: "Cheap and easy is usually neither in the long run.".


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The question that is gnawing at me, though... were the THUNDERCATS Kzin?


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There was a lot to said about cheap and easy,

when I was young and dumb ......

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Originally Posted by Dibnah
The risk of travelling in close proximity to undesirables is sufficient reason not to use public transport.

hmmm.

Last edited by ricochetrider; 07/21/21 9:26 pm.

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Originally Posted by DavidP
When a species' population becomes out of balance, especially an apex predator, it screws up the balance of the whole planet. Natural food sources become scare, leading to migration, and resistance to migration by the current inhabitants. Sound familiar?
That is the obvious solution , adding in economic issues... Solve those issues and we don't have an immigration problem



Originally Posted by DavidP
I would love to have an EV for around town, though I guess I'd have to hire an electrician to install the charging port. The only public charging points I've seen at some urban motels.

The Zero bikes I work with charge in a regular 110 outlet in 4 hours... Ride it to work and charge it there or have a solar panel ... Free transportation !!!

I thought digital photography would take years to take over film... It happened in 6 months.... BUT and that is a BIG but.... Film is booming ... not just with hipsters... Its a long lasting thing.... Labs all over the country processing film... My lab in the City is overwhelmed ... If billions of people start driving environmentally friendly vehicles to work.. (whatever that turns out to be) then gas will be like film.... Enough demand to keep it going Id say... Even if it cost more ... It will / should be cheaper in the long run.(counting what you would save in daily transport )... If I had to shoot film on my last trip to Barber it would have cost a thousand dollars to buy and process all that film.... Digital was free.... Dont drive ICE to work and only for fun .... same deal in my book....

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Originally Posted by Dibnah
Originally Posted by Lannis
Yes. "In the UK....." Bit of a different thing.

If I retired to the Cornish coast or the Isle of Man or a Kentish village, I wouldn't own a petrol car .... The buses and trains go everywhere, and an electric bike would probably take me up the High Street far enough to get groceries ....

Lannis

The risk of travelling in close proximity to undesirables is sufficient reason not to use public transport.

ICE = freedom to travel where you want, when you want and with whom you want.


I have ridden plenty of public transportation means... Daily on subways and buses in NYC and trains in the UK and a nine hour train ride in Italy from Amalfi coast to Venice ... I rarely see anything that puts me off... Eccentric people are entertaining and the "undesirables" or better known as mentally ill or homeless, while not pleasant to be next too are equally not to be forgotten.... So fix those problems and you then Public transport is a no brainer.... Only reason the electric car and electric trolly cars went away in the first place is because of BIG oil lobbyists in the first place...

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Originally Posted by Dibnah
The risk of travelling in close proximity to undesirables is sufficient reason not to use public transport.

ICE = freedom to travel where you want, when you want and with whom you want.

Well, I've lived in Atlanta and Denver and lived with MARTA and Light Rail, and have taken buses and trains when in the UK, and I must say that I was positively impressed with the folks on the public transportation in the middle of the country and in Cornwall. (I suppose that as in any country, living in the middle of a big city might be different).

On our last trip, we were on a train out of Plymouth which had a bunch of kids in school uniforms who were apparently taking the train home. Anywhere else I've ever been, even relatively well-behaved teenagers in groups will tend to annoy us older folks with their loud-talking and fooling-around and playing grab-ass and all, but these kids were as quiet and polite and well-behaved as anyone.

I wish we still had trains instead of "greenways" that no one uses except to use their Escalade to carry their bicycle to the trailhead and ride it up and down ....

Lannis


Be guided by facts that you can observe yourself, along with knowledge of how people have behaved during similar periods in history.
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Originally Posted by wadeschields
.... Only reason the electric car and electric trolly cars went away in the first place is because of BIG oil lobbyists in the first place...

Electric trolley cars, very likely pressure from GM and the oil companies.

Electric cars, no. Same reason as they're not taking hold now ... the energy density of gasoline versus batteries. Still hasn't been solved, and they've been working hard on it for 120 years. It's not the same technical problem as, say, increasing processing power of computers or the amount of memory that can be stored in a cubic nanometer, which has advanced amazingly and seems to double every year. There's some basic physics involved which is much harder to solve ... obviously ....

Lannis


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Originally Posted by R Moulding
Much as I love the internal combustion engine we can only keep wrapping plasters around it for so long. I've watched all those plasters be applied over the years, dealt with the issues that have arisen from them and had to explain the increasing repair costs to customers. I don't necessarily think that EV's are the answer but they may well be a useful stop gap until we find one.

IT will be very short
For starters if we make the same number of EV per annum that we make with combustion engines we will need to find 3 times the current known world reserves of cobalt.
Then there is copper again we will need to double the copper production and only enough know to exist to do this for 8 years

And that is just for what gets used in the EV's it does not include what will be needed for things like turbines to generate all that extra electricity .
Add to that no national grid is big enough to supply the additional power to recharge all those batteries overnight, particularly if the summer nights do get hotter so more demand for air-conditioning .
And this is all based on current production levels and does not take into account the millions of people in China India & Africa who will enter the middle class and want a car of some sort.

And these numbers came from projection papers written for Foundry Planet which as you may guess is a foundry journal and not a politically aligned think tanks of some sort with an agenda to follow.

Then there is G5 and perhaps even G6 .
G5 mobile technology will need millions more transmission towers each one consuming nearly 5 times the electricity of the current G4 towers
Despite the projections of them being smaller & more efficient, they are larger & generate a lot more heat.
In fact so large that new 6,000 ton die casting machines are being used just to make the cases for them and the first 9000 ton machine has just been commissioned in Korea and they are going to gobble just alittle bit of energy, just keeping them warm let alone when they actually get used.


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Replacing flights with VFT's will have a greater effect on the atmosphere than every one using an EV


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Modern Western civilisation was built on "cheap and easy" energy, particularly the USA. What meaningful benefits are there for energy that is "expensive and difficult" ?

I can't recall the last time I had to suffer undesirables fighting each other in my car, but it's easy enough to find examples of undesirables fighting each other on public transport. Throw in the junkies, the alkies, the beggars, the obese face-stuffers, the unwashed and more; public transport can be a dismal experience in the UK.

And then there's the overcrowding

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I prefer to have the choice of using my ICE car, ICE bike and - sometimes - my HP bicycle.

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I remember with no great fondness having to use London Underground. And that was 24 years ago!


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I used public transport in a handful of countries and always found it enjoyable and convenient. here in the U.S., its enjoyable and CAN be convenient depending if you live in or near a major city, but in general train travel is not a big part of the accepted from, and it's expensive.

OK... how to say this without seeming to be waving Lannis' "virtue wand"...

People are mostly simply... people. Everybody's story is different, and we don't have the slightest notion of what any stranger's life path is or was- or how they ended up in whatever circumstances. Admittedly we humans tend to see the world through our individual filters, but things are not always as we perceive them to be. Old adages don't come from nowhere. Then again neither do stereotypes, so while you mostly can't accurately judge a book by its cover, sometimes the obvious is spot on. That said, a little compassion never hurt anyone. And who doesn't love the great "sport" of people watching?

In terms of non- fossil fuel vehicles going away forever, as Wade pointed out, digital photography has been big but film is "back". Digital music -in recording studios had its moment too- who can't recall the awful early CDs & digital recordings of the 80s? But people figured out that analog sources were much better than digital sources and now most recordings incorporate some of each, resulting in happy & pleasing "dynamic range"- producing a decent sound. Music streaming has also gotten better as people have discovered how to create "lossless" digital copies of records or other recordings- and as it is with film and cameras, vinyl records are also "back". Remember TV dinners? now we have the "locavore" and "farmers market" and "farm to table" and "slow food" movements... real food is "back". Example of this are everywhere, I've touched on only a few.

That said, digital media and other things are clearly here to stay- tho many of them have come to emulate analog sources, others have simply evolved to be better- Televisions come to mind, and have you been to see a movie lately? Visual media in general have gotten WAY better. SO the "bogey man" does't seem to loom as large as some may think- if he exists at all. Change being the only constant in life, it's a natch that something's gotta give, but thank goodness for smart people who can see through the existing haze of digital and artificial contraptions to a brighter future where old devices combine with new technologies and things actually get better.

Meanwhile, I don't know where you guys live but I live in the Industrial Transport Hub of the U.S. east coast. it's not unusual to be on a motorway utterly surrounded by massive 53 foot long 18 wheel lorries, with barely another car or 4 -or 2- wheeled vehicle in sight. There are more & more expansive truck stops around here with acres & acres covered by hundreds of trucks parked and idling at any given moment- not to mention roadside rest stops overflowing with trucks awaiting their time to appear at whatever depot to load or unload... massive warehouses here, that USED to occupy only certain zones are currently moving further afield- quite literally afield, as at every rural freeway exit for miles around, warehouses are replacing crops in the local fields. These are no insignificant affairs either- each one is hundreds of thousands of square feet in size with many docks for innumerable trucks. Sometimes these buildings sit empty for a while but eventually all of the ones around here have filled up and are working.

I recall predictions a few years ago that freight trains would overtake trucking as the best way to move large amounts of everything and currently the typical freight train is often seemingly a couple miles long. Certainly, trains are getting longer and longer, so something must be happening in this realm. Near as I can tell, tho, a truck still has to get stuff to its final destination, so I guess trucks are also, well not really "back" because they never went away. Interesting side note; our area often gets "rated" (by whom I do not know) as having some of the worst general air quality in the nation- because of the fact of all these trucks.

To my way of seeing this, if there was ever a case for the switch to electric vehicles, it's in the world of large, freight hauling trucks.

Government initiatives aside, our old "analog" motorcycles will (hopefully) always be a thing because as has been proven over and over again, analog sources are, more favorable than artificial sources- and "authentic" experiences are more desirable than any experience that was created to "emulate" a real one.

Yet questions do arise:
Will someone will invent a substance that fires like fossil fuel, but pollutes very little or not at all?
Will most of us will even live to see the death throes of gasoline powered motorcycles?
Will the Toyota Avalon appear in a museum exhibit presented as The Art Of The Car?
Will public transport ever make its debut in rural or Middle America as THE way to travel?

Stay tuned, answers to these and more, coming to a planet near you.

Last edited by ricochetrider; 07/22/21 1:30 pm.

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Originally Posted by Dibnah
Modern Western civilisation was built on "cheap and easy" energy, particularly the USA. What meaningful benefits are there for energy that is "expensive and difficult" ?

I can't recall the last time I had to suffer undesirables fighting each other in my car, but it's easy enough to find examples of undesirables fighting each other on public transport. Throw in the junkies, the alkies, the beggars, the obese face-stuffers, the unwashed and more; public transport can be a dismal experience in the UK.

And then there's the overcrowding

[Linked Image from economist.com]

I prefer to have the choice of using my ICE car, ICE bike and - sometimes - my HP bicycle.


Thank god that the motorways don't have any "undesirables....alkies...obese face-stuffers". Rage on the motorway....never.

I do remember a dismal experience in the UK on public transport being stuck next to a blonde bird, like the one in your pic, from Sweden. Actually had to carry on a conversation. Terrible I tell you, just terrible.


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Carbon monoxide making sure it's effective...
----THE CLASH-----

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Originally Posted by ricochetrider
Meanwhile, I don't know where you guys live but I live in the Industrial Transport Hub of the U.S. east coast. it's not unusual to be on a motorway utterly surrounded by massive 53 foot long 18 wheel lorries, with barely another car or 4 -or 2- wheeled vehicle in sight. There are more & more expansive truck stops around here with acres & acres covered by hundreds of trucks parked and idling at any given moment- not to mention roadside rest stops overflowing with trucks awaiting their time to appear at whatever depot to load or unload... massive warehouses here, that USED to occupy only certain zones are currently moving further afield- quite literally afield, as at every rural freeway exit for miles around, warehouses are replacing crops in the local fields. These are no insignificant affairs either- each one is hundreds of thousands of square feet in size with many docks for innumerable trucks. Sometimes these buildings sit empty for a while but eventually all of the ones around here have filled up and are working.

I recall predictions a few years ago that freight trains would overtake trucking as the best way to move large amounts of everything and currently the typical freight train is often seemingly a couple miles long. Certainly, trains are getting longer and longer, so something must be happening in this realm. Near as I can tell, tho, a truck still has to get stuff to its final destination, so I guess trucks are also, well not really "back" because they never went away. Interesting side note; our area often gets "rated" (by whom I do not know) as having some of the worst general air quality in the nation- because of the fact of all these trucks.

To my way of seeing this, if there was ever a case for the switch to electric vehicles, it's in the world of large, freight hauling trucks.
.

I have to agree with you Tom, the I81 corridor around central PA is the absolute pits for truck traffic. At one time the idea was to load the trailers onto railroad flat cars for the long haul and have the last bit of the journey completed by the truck. That idea seems to have gone by and I'm not real sure why, but I suspect the time delays involved versus driving direct have a lot to do with it. In addition to the labor shortage most of the country is in now we are also experiencing very loooong delays between the time an order for inventory is placed with the manufacturer/distributor and the time it hits our door step. This is not just in the automotive supply industry either. Every one of my industrial and construction customers have similar issues getting the materials they need to do their jobs. If you question the suppliers about it the answer you get is that 1)no transportation available, or 2) it's sitting on the docks in LA or 3) still in containers stacked up on the ship waiting to be unloaded. Blame numbers 2 and 3 on covid or politics or whatever else you want but if ever there was a reason for expanded intermodal freight number 1 is it.


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That tube train may be crowded, but that's because the passengers trying to get on are aware of the difficulty of driving and cost of parking in London.

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A good thing that has happened over the last 50 years is that the general
efficiency of the average car engine has improved. The downside is that
rather than making the majority of vehicles more energy efficient, they have
made them more powerful and glitzy. The huge use of electronics on the
good old ICE can be a massive plus but application and marketing are what
sells cars.
How many people want to drive a really boring 1 litre car that will do 150 mpg
if it can only do 70 mph.? Yet for 95% of typical car use, this would be an ideal
design.
Politics will determine what happens with electric/Hybrid cars, they are all crooks
and subject to bribery etc so just live with it.

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Originally Posted by NickL
A good thing that has happened over the last 50 years is that the general
efficiency of the average car engine has improved. The downside is that
rather than making the majority of vehicles more energy efficient, they have
made them more powerful and glitzy. The huge use of electronics on the
good old ICE can be a massive plus but application and marketing are what
sells cars.
How many people want to drive a really boring 1 litre car that will do 150 mpg
if it can only do 70 mph.? Yet for 95% of typical car use, this would be an ideal
design.
Politics will determine what happens with electric/Hybrid cars, they are all crooks
and subject to bribery etc so just live with it.

Well, what you just yourself described says that consumer demand for powerful glitzy cars is what's driving design, not politics. As usual, it's US and not "them" that's driving the issues....

Lannis


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No, politics will decade what happens with Electric cars, not fuel efficient ones.

Marketing and consumers will decide about fuel efficient ones.
Cars are not just a means of transport they are are a status symbol
and many other things. It's all moved on since the model T.

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Mercedes just announced today that every model they produce will have an electric version by 2025 and by 2030 they will only produce Electric vehicles ... Stating that its not for the reason of saving the earth but because the technology is superior to ICE power. Maybe they are talking about how freaking fast an electric vehicle is ... Or the zero maintenance aspect ... who knows ... sounds like its going to happen no matter what...


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Please don't mention the "P" word, thread will disappear over night!

Wade, what makes you think electric cars require zero maintenance? Apart from steering and suspension how about ensuring the high voltage side of the system is in safe working order and then there are the 12 volt systems. Does anyone that considers buying an EV think about where they can go for repairs, apart from the local Stealership?


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'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth'

An interesting point given recent events.

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@ richochetrider, in the UK, the biggest potential issue for ICE enthusiasts will probably be the lack of petrol stations. The current model of several chains to sell petrol in large quantities will be dismantled. If lots of lorries means lots of trade then build more roads.

@ rick e. In my experience, road rage conflicts when driving a car or riding a motorcycle can generally be avoided, perhaps because increasing age means that the red mist fades, as does the cloak of indestructability, although I generally plan routes to avoid the heaviest traffic if possible. Road rage conflicts when cycling is the probably the biggest issue for me, insufficient power to escape and you can't lock yourself behind a steel door.

@ AngloBike, it was certainly possible to drive into Central London and park during the 1970s and 1980s, it would be interesting to compare commuter numbers then and now. All local authorities and "Transport for London" design road networks to impede drivers and motorcyclists, so it's hardly surprising that traffic congestion results. Free on-road parking for cars has virtually disappeared in Central London, pre-Covid it could be a lottery to find a parking space for a motorcycle. The local authorities and our wonderful government view motorists as cash cows.

London Underground during Covid-19 (March 2020, not my photo)

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Wow. All this because someone posted about an abandoned Triumph! (That's what got me thinking on my original post.)
A lot of interesting and inciteful viewpoints, enough to make me realize that a specific time range on the demise of an internal combustion engine is one that can't be pre determined. The cards will fall as they fall.
Now has anyone figured out how to transport me back to 1950 so I can buy my new Thunderbird off the Johnson Motors floor and remain blissfully ignorant until I die sometime in the 1980's?

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