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Hello; I am letting here an almost philosophically-technical question and a few doubts to see other points of views.
I am in the need of another crankshaft (79) a possibility was order a billet one from Mr Blagus but he told me (after some doubts that I asked him) that he makes mostly for racers (AKA servicing and dismantling every few hundreds of miles)
Those cranks do not have an sludge trap so I am thinking if an sludge trap is something really necessary or a pain in the arse only. You know, there are plenty of old cars with all clogged and still somehow the oil keeps passing etc.

Then you have the problem of the balancing. Billet crank has a different design with the flywheels; hence what % should be applied?

Thanks

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The sludge trap is a centrifugal filter. If you add a good paper filter somewhere else then the sludge trap is not needed. The A65's problem was the sludge trap came after the timing side main bearing.

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Hi Reverb, Almost no cars have sludge trap. I can’t recall any. Never a problem. In frame oil filters work really well. Clean oil same as spin-on. Fit whatever filter you want.
Balancing I don’t know.
Don


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Originally Posted by TR7RVMan
Hi Reverb, Almost no cars have sludge trap. I can’t recall any. Never a problem. In frame oil filters work really well. Clean oil same as spin-on. Fit whatever filter you want.
Balancing I don’t know.
Don

Here is part of a car crankshaft.

Can you see why it is less likely than a Triumph crankshaft, to block itself up with centrifuged-out carbon black?

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


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Hi Reverb,

The centrifugal filtering sludge trap was only employed because no other proper filter was fitted.

It worked because it was a large volume cavity, so the oil stayed inside it for a relatively long time. This allowed enough time for the denser particles to be flung to the outer side of the cavity and settle there.

If a crank is made without a sludge tube cavity, then it will have a small ID hole between the journal feeds. The oil will not be sitting in this hole for very long, so much less solids separation is possible. A decent filter will make this negligible.

The crankpin side of the crank will be heavier (it is steel rather than a cavity filled with oil). I would expect the manufacturer to take this into account by increasing the counterbalance cheek weights or flywheel.

At the very least you would still want to static balance it to your chosen %, dynamic balancing much better IMHO.

Cheers.

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A bit stupid to put an oil filter inside an engine where you can not get to the thing easily, ie. without dismantling the whole engine. A simple cartridge type on the return line, like some fit now, wouldn't have put a dent in triumphs profits.

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Yes; understand the fact to still I would use an external filter if not possible the shell bearings could be seized in no time. I do not want to avoid the sludge trap I prefer to avoid the external filter because there is no place for them in the later Triumphs. I have one but 2 times almost seized the motor due to touched the frame an cut the filter.
Also; I am very firmly convinced that if you rebuild super clean; when I say clean I say surgically clean; change the oils every 1500 miles like Manual says and use the best oil you will have a semi or total rebuild BEFORE the sludge trap will be clogged again and possibly now with different oils never be so clogged again.
In that case no necessity actually, to use an external filter in a Triumph. Never seized any bearing in my pre unit 500 but needed to rebuild other stuff so partially and totally tear apart the motor and the sludge trap had crap only the first time that I dismantle that engine; possibly nobody cleaned it before...

But as mentioned, these cranks have no sludge trap so the need of external filter. That is a no no for me.
Regarding balancing, with a crank that has a completely different weight, what could be the balance factor? Nobody knows may be. Then the fact that the balancer men say "yes" then do whatever they think is right.
The only thing that seems not so difficult is to calculate the bobs weights.

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As I understand it (not a T140 man) the Charlies and Motao oil filters fit in the bottom of the OIF frame tube? Using a filter allows the use of modern high performance detergent oils, but you'll hear more opinions than there are oils on that one!
It doesn't matter what shape the crank is, if it fits in the Triumph cases with the same stroke then the balance factor should be the same, it is a lot to do with the resonance of the frame. The overall weight of the crank should have some effect, but Triumph used the same balance factor of the mid 60's lightweight crank and the late '69 and 70 crank @ 85%. The 750's all used 74%, except the TSS, which ws 69% (and machined all over so better dynamic balance).
HTH
Mick.

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Originally Posted by TinkererToo
As I understand it (not a T140 man) the Charlies and Motao oil filters fit in the bottom of the OIF frame tube? Using a filter allows the use of modern high performance detergent oils,


The original engine oil recommendation for the T140 (and earlier?) was 20W/50 multigrade, therefore, would be "high-performance detergent oil" and probably what most T140s have been run on since they were new.

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The original 20W50 oils weren't detergent, AFAIK current "classic" 20W50's aren't either.

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Originally Posted by TinkererToo
The original 20W50 oils weren't detergent, AFAIK current "classic" 20W50's aren't either.

I think there was some level of detergent/dispersant in the majority (if not all?) multigrade oils and are in 'classic' oils whether high or low level.

https://www.classic-oils.net/Millers-Classic-Pistoneeze-20w50
Millers Classic Pistoneeze 20w50

"Detergent-Dispersant Package High"


https://www.morrislubricantsonline.co.uk/golden-film-sae-20w-50-classic-motor-oil.html
"Golden Film SAE 20W-50 Classic Motor Oil is recommended for use in veteran, classic and vintage cars, motorcycles, commercial vehicles and tractors, where engine design and tolerances prohibit the use of modern high additive level oils. Golden Film SAE 20W-50 Classic Motor Oil is a low dispersant oil and allows any solid contaminants to drop harmlessly into the sump. This is an important feature where early methods of oil filtration, such as mesh gauzes or strainers are fitted."

https://www.classic-oils.net/Castrol-XL-20w-50
"Detergent-Dispersant Package Low"

https://www.misteroil.eu/en-eu/shop/product/1058/duckhams-classic-q
"Carefully selected to be suitable for use in Classic vehicles requiring an SAE 20W-50 engine oil, Duckhams Classic Q 20W-50 features a finely balanced, updated additive package, including detergents and dispersants,..."


Even certain classic/vintage monograde oils can be "detergent".
https://www.silkolene.com/motorcycle/classic-oils/hardwick-50/
"Classic/vintage SAE 50 mono-grade oil with good detergency and a high level of anti-wear additives."

https://www.silkolene.com/motorcycle/classic-oils/chatsworth-40/

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Oil thread warning! I've used ordinary 20/50W motor oils for decades, I've not known old Triumphs to be fussy.

Just a few thoughts on the blocking-up of the sludge trap.

As TT mentioned, the major constituent of the sludge is carbon-black, which mainly derives from oil roasted on the upper surface of the cylinder head and the underside of the piston crown. Some also enters the oil from blowby past the rings.
This is effectively soot (density ~2g/ml).

The oil in which it is suspended has a density of ~0.8g/ml at reasonable operating temperature (say ~70+degC).

The large volume of the sludge trap allows a long residence time (quite a small flow rate from the pump), so the centrifugation can separate these modestly different densities.

If the residence time is greatly reduced by eliminating the sludge trap cavity (just a drilling instead), there is greatly reduced opportunity for the carbon to move and be subsequently compacted on the outside surface.

Of course carbon may not be the only contaminant in the oil, especially during break in. Steel or iron particles from the rings/bores (density ~8g/ml) will be centrifuged effectively in the sludge trap.
Unfortunately they will already have gone through both sides of the oil pump by the time they get to the trap, and a few may get to the timing side big end.
This is where a return filter will help, especially during break in.

I use a magnet on my sump plate (mine is a pre-unit so I don’t know if the same option is available for units), so that catches most of those iron/steel particles before they go back through the pump.
It gathers a lot of filings after a rebore during break-in, then just a bit of metal dust thereafter. I do think that stuff is better on the magnet than flowing around with the oil.

I have to think about how these engines were until proper oil filters were introduced. They seemed to survive quite well, despite my above thoughts. I suspect that a lot of the ring/barrel break in bits would be found embedded in the big end shells, or maybe having passed through the return pump, settling around the lower regions of the oil tank perhaps.

Finally, folk strip an engine, say at 30K miles from new and find the trap half full. Does that mean the crank would be blocked at ~60K miles?
IMHO it means nothing of the sort. As the trap fills, the residence time reduces, the deposition of sediment also reduces.
I suspect an exponential relationship, I’m doubtful that the design allows of a total blockage at all (probably stir some!).

In support of the contention I’ve just proposed, I would say that the sludge forms on the outer (centrifugal) edge of the trap, the oil can still be supplied from the inner drillings to the cavity to the big end outlets.

What do the rest of you think?

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Hi Koan, I agree 100%.
After 45 years in the trade seeing motors that didn’t have oil changed for years & non detergent oils used flowing oil under pressure will not clog passage. It will sludge up to the volume of the flow.
If a chunk of sludge breaks off it might block flow, but I’ve never seen that. Silicone sealant is an odd thing. It can squeeze through tiny hole, then block lager hole & starve oil. Seen this a number of times. We had special class on using silicon safely on motors.
I’ve observed on sludge filled motors changing oil to high detergent doesn’t hardly dissolve any sludge at all.

Centrifugal oil filters work well. Very well. Paper filters work well also.

Would paper filter on bike keep sludge trap cleaner? I’d think so, but I expect sludge trap would still collect tiny heavy particles that can pass through paper?

Do the tiny particles that pass through paper reduce engine life?
Does paper filters actually extend engine life on Triumph with sludge trap? I don’t know.

I always thought about this stuff from my first professional job. At Porsche Audi we changed oil brand of 90w transmission from
Swepco to CASTROL. Tripled syncro & ring/pinion & piñon bearing life. CASTROL 20-50 allowed much cam wear.
Moving to Mercedes dealer We changed from Chevron deli 20/50 to Pennzoil 20-50. Cam wear was increased 4-5 times. Now a non issue. CASTROL & delo allowed rapid wear even on the chill cast hard cams with stellite faced rockers. Think Triumph! Finally we went with Mobil1. Again reduced wear but not greatly reduced. I worked 11 months on warranty office. Was privy to many things like USA cam wear. Also type of oil all dealers used. A direct correlation! Think what you will. Oil matters.

Regard magnets. Porsche used them for years. Always metal on them. I put one in my bike at fist oil change from new. I see what Koan sees exactly. Did it make my motor last longer?? I don’t know. I know Triumphs wear quickly even with the best of every thing. Why I don’t know.

I would use non sludge trap crank without hesitation with in frame filter.
Don


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Originally Posted by koan58
What do the rest of you think?

As the passage through the crank is narrowed by sludge buildup, pressure and flow speed will increase, yes, but I think it’s possible for the route for oil to one big end to block.

The three-piece crankshaft in my bike has something like 80,000 miles on it since last rebuild and I have no plans to strip it down.

Which proves nothing!


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large Diesel engines often have centrifugal filters along with full flow and bypass paper filters to remove soot particles.These engines run for for thousands of hours and oil and rebuilding is expensive. Oil change intervals might be 30,000 miles or more...
John Healy would have a cow, but I have four Triumphs engines and an A10 with return line filters and no sludge trap tube..


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What always worried me about sludge traps, is quite often a bike/engine you get or buy or whatever, that may have been lying up for years, will have dryed out sludge in the crank trap. When you start the engine the sludge may move and block the flow to the big end, destroying it. I opened the engine on my A10 and yes, there was a load of muck in the trap, bone dry. The oil tank was in a similar state, about 2 inches of thick hard sludge in the bottom of it.

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Bon, I don't think the compacted sludge in the crank is likely to go anywhere, it is like a greasy rock (shale). I challenge you to find a solvent that will shift it.
I've tried petrol, benzene and acetone, none touched it. It had to be physically removed.

TT “The three-piece crankshaft in my bike has something like 80,000 miles on it since last rebuild and I have no plans to strip it down.”

Likewise I’m still using the 3-piece crank my engine came with in 1979. I did break it in 1983 (out of curiosity) to find a small amount of crud around the interior of the flywheel surface. As you know, the centrifugal cavity in a 3-piece crank is wider, rather than long (though the flow exchange through it is doubtful).

I’d agree with your sentiment not to disturb it, my crank is still good 40 years on. I have no way to judge mileage as no working speedo for most years, but easily 50K miles.
Since rectifying that deficiency 4 years ago, have done 12K miles.

Work has been done on many parts of the engine, mainly the head (original 8-stud) but the big-end journals are still good after 40 years, and the crank was probably 20+years old when I got it in 79.
I ran it without an external oil filter till 2000, never particularly fussy about oil changes.
Maybe I was lucky, but I don’t think so. Triumph cranks are incredibly durable.
I’ve never known a Triumph big end to wear out in normal circumstances.

The piston pump can be criticised, but prove a more dependable option if you can.
Just don’t put metal grit through it.

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When I bought my 72 I had to clean the sludge trap with a hammer and a chisel. That was over 30 years ago. With modern oil and an oil filter I don't expect to ever have to do that again.


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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
John Healy would have a cow, but I have four Triumphs engines and an A10 with return line filters and no sludge trap tube..

Triumph themselves didn’t fit a sludge trap tube until the early 1950s.


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Hi Tinkerer too and TR7RVMan; I know about those internal filters but open that cover every 1500 miles is not so good regarding killing those threads etc. That cover is to remove a few times in the life of the motor not several times per year. Even more here that there are no crankcases spares like in USA and UK.

Do not get it why you say that if it fits into the cases the balance factor should be the same...the shape and weight are different...are the balance factor the same for the 76º cranks?

-Hi Koan; what about those carbon residues that you mention if there is no sludge trap?

Hi TT; as mentioned, when I dismantled my 3 pieces 1948 crank I found plenty of sludge but possible sludge since day one of the bike...so is a type of trap not a tube but centrifugal trap anyway.


Hi Tony, if you do not use a trap in the cranks; what do you fit in the hole?

Thanks

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Hi Reverb, The paper filter goes at bottom of frame. It replaces the screen.

I’ve taken the motor sump plug/filter out ever oil change. For 36k miles. Threads are perfect.

What really messes up the threads is dirty threads from metal chips in sump. The point of changing motor sump oil is to clean the metal, carbon out & clean screen.
Don


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...of course; but you started with a new bike but my Triumph never had a good Life with previous owners. I have been dedicated to take care of them to try to take the best rides as possible.
I use the bikes as transportation (Today I put 300Km on the black top) so if I use one of those filters I would remove the sump several times per year. You know; later new week I will have 800km more so I would be near another oil change.
Regarding metal particles; I have the sludge trap and external filter; then the mesh that OIF has there. I never found any metal particle or silicone (looked with a LED light) in that strainer or anywhere. Seems also, that PO did the rebuilt many years ago, pretty clean indeed.

Why not order that new crank and put an external filter and just that?
I have a N Hyde oil cooler; an external filter and a direct feed to the crank via timing cover so I have too many oil pipes here and there without any space at all
I changed all those pipes and after plenty of kilometers I needed to change again due to some touch with the cases edges here and there due to NO enough space in a later T140E; much more space in other Triumph
Those pipes CAN let me stranded on the road and SEIZE the engine in no time. (also filter had a fissure 2 times and almost seized the engine) There is no space and you have the vibrations and sharp edges. I do not use the bike to ride around town so I always go 70MPH like minimum speed.
I really do not like external filters and all these gizmos that are more to talk with other buddies in a Cafe or camping that actually to REALLY ride.
I am a rider; a rider of old iron not a gearhead. I needed to rebuilt 5 of these engines and maintain these bikes, so plenty of wrenching but to ride! not because I like to be a mechanic. For the love to maintain these great motorcycles on the road in this China s rules World that we are living right now.

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Originally Posted by TR7RVMan
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-
I know Triumphs wear quickly even with the best of every thing. Why I don’t know.
-
-

It would be interesting to see how long a classic Triumph engine would last without a rebuild if modern oil is used and a modern filtration system fitted from day one.

Many owners lovingly mistreat their treasured classic bikes with short runs, low rpm and static engine running during winter

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Triton Thrasher- do you have 80, 000 miles on the top end, too?

Dave

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A couple of things - as long as the crank configuration is the same eg standard 360 deg, the the shape of the crank does not matter from the point of view of balancing. An offset crank will need a different balance factor, I've got a 270 degree crank away at the moment for balancing, Opinion seems to be that 50% will be ok, when I ever get around to building the engine, I'll know!
I don't know why you have an oil cooler, twins don't need one though the triples might. I don't really see why the aftermarket filters in the frame spine should need changing much more often than in a car, and they more or less make the sump filter redundant anyway, but then I don't have a T140!

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