Classic British SparesKlempf British PartsBaxter CycleBritBike Sponsor SteadfastCyclesSRM EngineeringLucas Classic MotorcycleHepolite PistonsIndustrial tec supply

Upgrade your membership to: Premium Membership | Gold Membership | Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Welcome to BritBike Forum!
Britbike forum logo
Member Spotlight
Mike Muir
Mike Muir
somewhere in the UK
Posts: 1,094
Joined: April 2004
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 17
S
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
S
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 17
Hi All,
My 441 motor is being rebuilt and I’d like to update the electronics. This bike will be built for reliability and will be a daily-rider. What would you recommend being replaced (from the 100% stock system)? Is any one brand better than another? I believe I should keep the battery?
Your advice is appreciated.
Thank you,
Dan

Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!

Check out British motorcycles for sale: British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,429
Likes: 36
S
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
S
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,429
Likes: 36
Hi Dan,
Originally Posted by shackkat
I believe I should keep the battery?
Ime, yes.

Originally Posted by shackkat
update the electronics.
Ignition - Of the three in your thread title, were you to choose "Boyer" and it later went wrong, although it's made in England, you have US-based backup in John Healy, who moderates the Triumph Board and is also owner of parts wholesaler Coventry Spares.

Originally Posted by shackkat
will be a daily-rider.
You're planning to upgrade the lighting in case you have to ride in the dark? LED or incandescent?

Hth.

Regards,

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,695
Likes: 4
L
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
L
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,695
Likes: 4
I've been more than happy with the Wassell EI in my B44R.

Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,777
Likes: 127
knuckle head
Offline
knuckle head
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,777
Likes: 127
Stuart, John Healy is a distributor who does't sell retail. I believe the procedure for Boyer involves sending the faulty component to the retailer you purchased it from, then the retailer would sent it to Coventry Spares..
Boyer has failed to respond to several recent emails I sent them for technical help...Not very impressive...


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons.."I don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,154
Likes: 80
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,154
Likes: 80
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Stuart, John Healy is a distributor who does't sell retail.

Originally Posted by Stuart
John Healy, who moderates the Triumph Board and is also owner of parts wholesaler Coventry Spares.


Tony,

Stuart did state that Coventry Spares is a wholesale(r) operation beerchug

Not encouraging to hear that Boyer isn't answering your inquiries.


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1968 T100R Daytona 500
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1970 BSA A65F 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project
1971 BSA A65 650 - Project
1972 Norton Commando 750 "Combat"


"Every time I listen to AC/DC, so do my neighbors"

Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 198
Likes: 9
D
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
D
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 198
Likes: 9
Strewth, honestly I am surprised you haven't broken the internet with asking for opinions on this!!

All I can say, and have done MANY times before, I fitted the Vape (marketed by Wassel), new battery , Podtronix Reg. and perhaps most importantly a new premier edition carb.

Did this to my 2 B44s, one daily ride, one garage princess, and have not regretted it.

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,429
Likes: 36
S
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
S
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,429
Likes: 36
Hi Tony,
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
John Healy is a distributor who does't sell retail. I believe the procedure for Boyer involves sending the faulty component to the retailer you purchased it from, then the retailer would sent it to Coventry Spares.
Post 810253:-
Originally Posted by John Healy
Marc If you want to we can test the Boyer.
Post 808239:-
Originally Posted by John Healy
we have always offered free testing on units sold by one of our US dealers. You think the unit is bad, you send it to us for testing.
etc. ...

Hth.

Regards,

Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,777
Likes: 127
knuckle head
Offline
knuckle head
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,777
Likes: 127
There's nothing wrong with the Boyer Micro power I bought... but...I bought it because Boyer's description says you can change spark advance rates.But me the consumer can see no little switches or clever tricks to do that...I asked the question in the General forum about how to do that...John Healy replied that for a nominal fee I can have the advance changed,no mention of who does this service..I don't expect John to do this.... So I emailed Boyer to ask then but they failed to respond to my several emails over a few days...I am adrift in a leaking boat. grin


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons.."I don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,429
Likes: 36
S
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
S
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,429
Likes: 36
Hi Tony,
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
I emailed Boyer to ask then but they failed to respond to my several emails over a few days...
Educated guess says Covid-19 restrictions are preventing the full staff working on site, Bransden Electronics is a small company, possibly difficult for them to set up IT access for staff to work from home. I'll endeavour to find out for you tomorrow.

Hth.

Regards,

Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,777
Likes: 127
knuckle head
Offline
knuckle head
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,777
Likes: 127
Thanks for the offer to investigate.....Covid is not an issue around here , business as usual....I was a more or less one man electrical construction contractor and made it a point to answer all calls the same day or early the next day..Of course it was only three a day, lol


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons.."I don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,656
Likes: 75
J
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,656
Likes: 75
We accept Boyer's for testing directly from the customer. We offer the same service for Pazon, Tri-Spark and Vape units we sold.

HB the setting of the advance curves starts when the chip his programed before assembly and potting. There is no way to to reprogram the chip after the unit is potted. The stress caused by Covid, and the related staffing, supply, technical support and shipping problems have people working 7 days a week to keep up. Things just seem to take twice the time to accomplish.

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,656
Likes: 75
J
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,656
Likes: 75
PS I can get up to 150 emails a day. A normal day we can get up to 25 calls from dealers and Vincent customers looking for technical advice.

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 17
S
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
S
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 17
“You're planning to upgrade the lighting in case you have to ride in the dark? LED or incandescent?”

Yes, I’d like to upgrade to LED of this is possible?

I appreciate all your answers so far.

I am planning on buying a new AMAL premier. It should be a 930, correct?

Thank you,
Dan

Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 198
Likes: 9
D
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
D
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 198
Likes: 9
Yep, 930. The ones that you get State side come with a choke. just use the cap from your old carb and forget the choke. There is another recent thread about this.

BPF LED bulbs are available and are certainly worth it, Jo Lucas is not known as the Prince of Darkness for nothing.
On both of my B44s I totally rewired them with slightly larger gauge marine grade wire in an effort to reduce voltage losses. I was lucky as I had a wiring loom from a large Yamaha outboard motor so just used that, color coding not the same, but electrons are color blind and it is in a nice neat soft conduit.

Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,777
Likes: 127
knuckle head
Offline
knuckle head
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,777
Likes: 127
Replying to what john Healy says there is nothing on the Boyer website explaining that, this is a quote from the website......

"In both systems,-ignition timing is controlled - in bands of 50 r.p.m. over the entire speed range, this gives the ability to programme any firing angle required. To help engine power at idle, the timing can be advanced, on and below the idle speed, this stabilises and reduces the chance of stalling. From idle, the advance can be sharper than provided by the previous Mk3 system, giving even better throttle response. The Micro-Digital system makes the best possible use of standard coils, whilst the latest Micro-Power system is supplied with miniature digital coils matched to the unit, for incredible performance."
Nothing about pre programing...I payed an extra 130 bucks over the base Boyer and didn't get what I wanted...The shame is on me for believing the printed words...


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons.."I don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,497
Likes: 137
N
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
N
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,497
Likes: 137
They do make a user programmable race setup. About $50,000 i think.

I don't know if they will want to open the potted unit up to load in a different profile on the kit you have though.

Trispark also do a programmable system, you will need to attach your PC to do either.

There is a guy in Holland who makes a neat little unit too. John Hill uses one on his offset beezer.
That comes with several selectable profiles and he will put a special profile in. It's a reasonable price too.

Don't know about Pazon but they probably do one too.

There is no easy way to setup the units without using a PC as you would need about 32 switches........

Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,777
Likes: 127
knuckle head
Offline
knuckle head
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,777
Likes: 127
I put in a points set up and altered the advance rate and total advance to get the results I wanted. Then I figured to replace it with an EI having the same rate and total advance...I can just put the points back as they are no bother for the limited use of the bike,. I like to experiment, push outside the box rather than ride a totaly stock machine and count my pennies...Another learning experience, another item to hang on the wall of shame, lol.


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons.."I don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,497
Likes: 137
N
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
N
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,497
Likes: 137
what sort of curve are you after?

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,429
Likes: 36
S
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
S
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,429
Likes: 36
Hi Dan,
Originally Posted by shackkat
will be a daily-rider.
Originally Posted by Stuart
You're planning to upgrade the lighting in case you have to ride in the dark? LED or incandescent?
Originally Posted by shackkat
I’d like to upgrade to LED
What street lighting?

Lit streets, LED replacement 'bulb' in the original BPF lens/reflector is 'good' for other road users seeing you.

Otoh, unlit streets:-

. Ime, BPF lens/reflector is unmitigated crap for seeing with - LED replacement 'bulb' puts out plenty of light but the BPF lens/reflector was always hopeless at focussing it properly.

. One option is to replace the BPF lens/reflector with a complete LED headlamp; however, not only have they been beaten badly with the ugly stick imho, I don't know of a metal one that works with 'positive ground', you'd need an all-plastic one.

. Another option is to replace the BPF lens/reflector with a modern one, that takes what's known as a "P43t" base (aka "H4") bulb; LED 'bulbs' to fit these are available but watch out for excessive cost, low "LM" (lumens, light output) and 'negative ground only'.

My preferred option has always been modern lens/reflector that takes a modern P43t-base incandescent bulb. First Britbike I did this to was long before LED 'bulbs' were available but the best incandescents still put out more actual light than LED. I used to use a quartz-halogen pilot bulb for riding under streetlamps but LED that fit in place of the complete pilot bulb and holder are now easier to source and cheaper.

If there's a downside to a decent incandescent headlamp bulb, it's they're all at least 60W main/high, 55W dip/low, so a modern more-powerful alternator is wise-to-necessary, particularly for daily riding and if yours still has its original 3-wire RM19 or 2-wire RM21 stator. Your modern can of worms here is, unless you source a particular high-output stator from a particular British dealer, your sole new alternator supplier is Wassell.

New alternator will require a combined regulator/rectifier to replace the separate rectifier and Zener diode.

Originally Posted by Dave Martin
On both of my B44s I totally rewired them with slightly larger gauge marine grade wire in an effort to reduce voltage losses.
Fwiw, ime not necessary. Apart from thicker wire for those common to several circuits (Brown/Blue, Brown/White with an Ammeter, White to/from the ignition switch, main Red or Black ('ground' depending)), I use standard automotive wire that's thinner than Lucas used, no problems, its Amps rating exceeds that drawn by a 60W headlamp main/high-beam filament. Only problem in the US is the thinner wire availability is more restricted, unless you bite the rewire bullet and place your big order with a British supplier.

Btw, risking starting yet another branch to this thread, unless you "daily ride" in mainly low humidity/rainfall, any rewiring, don't be tempted to leave out the 'ground wires' (Red on your bike assuming standard 'positive ground'); the Japanese did and, in GB (not noted for its low humidity/rainfall), electrical/'ground' problems are what scrap the vast majority of Japanese bikes before they become "classic" and worth rescuing.

Hth.

Regards,

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,497
Likes: 137
N
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
N
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,497
Likes: 137

Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,777
Likes: 127
knuckle head
Offline
knuckle head
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,777
Likes: 127
It's the 750 Triumph with the tight piston to head squish. It runs well on 34 degrees total advance.. but backing off a typical EI with their lazy advance curves makes the engine softer off idle and low speeds... I limited the advance on the points to 20 crank degrees at 2500 rpm with about 14 degrees static timing. This worked well for my style of riding with no pinging..


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons.."I don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,429
Likes: 36
S
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
S
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,429
Likes: 36
Hi Tony,

Spoke with Bransden; your emails received Thursday and Sunday; at least one of the tech. guys is an employee, so entitled to paid holiday, he happened to be off Thursday and Friday; similar to JH, Bransden get a lot of tech. emails every day, the other tech. guy(s) just didn't get to your Thursday email before Friday; as with a lot of companies, Bransden are only open Monday-Friday.

Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Originally Posted by John Healy
the setting of the advance curves starts when the chip his programed before assembly and potting. There is no way to to reprogram the chip after the unit is potted.
nothing on the Boyer website explaining that, this is a quote from the website......
Ye-ea-ah ... but the quote doesn't say it's user-programmable either ...

I would respectfully point out that, like a lot of written stuff Bransden produces, it's written by techies; ime, I've seen wa-aa-ay worse written by techies chosen for their techie ability, not their English-writing ability; that's pretty good English for a techie, just too open to interpretation for clarity ...

Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
I put in a points set up and altered the advance rate and total advance to get the results I wanted. Then I figured to replace it with an EI having the same rate and total advance...
Another learning experience, another item to hang on the wall of shame,
Why not just ask Bransden, if you supply your points advance rate and total advance, and return the unused MicroPower box, would they program you one?

Btw, I also talked to Al Osborn for you. When you tested your Rita, I know you posted you'd tested the resistance across the 5PU trigger unit; with it all connected and ignition switch on, did you try waving a magnet near the 5PU and see if that generated a spark at the plug?

Hth.

Regards,

1 member likes this: Gordon Gray
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,777
Likes: 127
knuckle head
Offline
knuckle head
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,777
Likes: 127
Stuart, I can't thank you enough. Boyer just sent me an email and included a map of the advance curve of the Tri/BSA Micro Power...It appears as a much faster rate of advance than what I found on Internet info.15 degrees at 1000 rpm and 40 at 3000 rpm. I should be good to go, excellent....
The Rita, no I didn't wave a magnet.I did pull the pick up and reluctor, spun it by hand, snappy blue sparks. Wiggled all the wires while watching the ohm meter, no problems. I rode the bike into my heated shop and 5 months later, no sparks even when kicking fast with the plugs removed and grounded.


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons.."I don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"

Moderated by  Allan G, Jon W. Whitley 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Job CycleBritish Cycle SupplyMorries PlaceKlempf British PartsPodtronicVintage MagazineBSA Unit SinglesBritBike SponsorBritish Tools & FastenersBritBike SponsorBritBike Sponsor






© 1996-2021 britbike.com
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5