Britbike forum

Classic British SparesKlempf British PartsBaxter CycleBritBike Sponsor SteadfastCyclesThe Bonneville ShopLowbrow CustomsGirling Classic MotorcycleLucas Classic MotorcycleHepolite PistonsIndustrial tec supply Classic Bike Parts Cheshire

Upgrade Your membership! Premium Membership Gold Membership Vendor Membership

New Sponsor post
July 4th Sale at The Bonneville Shop
by The Bonneville Shop - 07/01/22 6:26 pm
New FAQ post
Member Spotlight
Posts: 429
Joined: June 2005
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
Top Posters(30 Days)
quinten 61
DavidP 57
kevin 53
Top Likes Received (30 Days)
Cyborg 23
Lannis 20
Newest Members
BrokenLeg, Jeff Keller, Steveland, Daideo, kenjon
12,210 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
5 members (DMadigan, Mark Z, Chris Johnson, hardarser, BeezaBryan), 14 guests, and 27 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums35
Topics76,535
Posts776,193
Members12,210
Most Online204
Jul 10th, 2022
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#850858 06/06/21 12:13 pm
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 124
Likes: 4
W
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
W
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 124
Likes: 4
Hey guys
I need some help with the oil line routing on my 1970 TR6R. i started up a fresh engine rebuild yesterday and of course looked immediately for oil returning, but there was none. I shut the engine off and drained the oil, then switched the oil lines at the steel tubes from the oil pump. i did have the outside line routed to the oil tank return, Would anyone be able to tell me if the outside line should be the feed line?
Thanks
John

IMG_0040.jpg IMG_0041.jpg
Triumphs on eBay
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 8,756
Likes: 266
A
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
A
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 8,756
Likes: 266
If you do a fresh engine build, or even the pump. The pump and oil system will want priming. Without having the engine running you can remove the oprv and kick the engine over (with the plugs out) until you see oil coming out of the oprv port. Once you have done this you have confirmed that the oil lines the correct way around and that within a short space of time the crank will be full of oil and feeding the big ends.

Did you assemble the motor with engine oil or engine assembly lube on the big end shells? Engine assembly oil is like treacle but stays with the journal until sufficient oil flow washes it away.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (now rebuilt)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

1 member likes this: kommando
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,677
Likes: 60
D
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
D
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,677
Likes: 60
http://www.britcycle.com/manuals/Oil_Line_Hookup.htm

Hope this helps.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,467
Likes: 147
K
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
K
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,467
Likes: 147
At the junction block Front is Feed, Rear is Return.

Allan G #850862 06/06/21 1:56 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 6,432
Likes: 298
knuckle head
Offline
knuckle head
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 6,432
Likes: 298
The first thing to look for is oil pressure confirmed by a gauge. It takes the return more time to show flow depending on the amount of oil in the sump and if there's a filter on the return line..
Nice shop!


61 hot rod A10, 89 Honda 650NT .On a bike you can out run the demons
"I don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 368
Likes: 23
W
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
W
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 368
Likes: 23
ON OIL JUNCTION JUNCTION BLOCK THAT BOLTS TO CRANKCASE, OUTER PIPE, FARTHER TO REAR OF ENG. IS RETURN, AND INNER, FORWARD PIPE IS FEED.
Easy way to remember is R to R, F to F - Rear to Return, Front to Feed.

Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 124
Likes: 4
W
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
W
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 124
Likes: 4
Thank you all.

Allan / Koan, it looks like I had the oil lines attached correctly, but that means I have a bigger problem. The engine started on the third kick and ran for the length of time it took me to pop open the seat and remove the oil cap. There was no oil coming out of the top of the return tube. As per Allan's comment, I did in fact kick over the bike about 10 times to prime the oil pump, but this didn't seem to work.

If the engine ran for 30 - 40 seconds, shouldn't this have also primed the pump?
Regards
John

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 9,136
Likes: 187
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 9,136
Likes: 187
Did the oil light go out?

The feed line to the oil pump will suck oil up out of a jar, through a length of clear hose, if the pump is working. That’s a pretty reliable sign that you’ve found the feed line.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,467
Likes: 147
K
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
K
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,467
Likes: 147
I like to pump oil into the crank with the engine at TDC before fitting the timing cover, until it will accept no more.

Then let oil flow from the tank feed before slipping it onto the junction block.
So now there is only a small length of small diameter gallery from the junction block, through the pump, to the crank nose, that is lacking oil.

Then put say a total of half a pint of oil into the rocker boxes before starting the engine.

I give the engine a few kicks until some pressure shows, or the warning light goes out.
Some will disagree with this, arguing that it damages splash-lubed components and compromises ring bedding. I haven’t found such detriments in practice.

By the time you’ve put the rocker covers back on and done that, there will be a fair bit of oil in the sump (more than usual). Assuming you’ve assembled the oil pump liberally with oil, it will self-prime, and you will see oil returning to the tank within ~15 seconds (assuming there isn’t an empty return-side filter to fill first).

As the others have said, that’s not the vital issue. It is that the feed pump must be receiving oil from the tank and pumping efficiently to the crank from the outset.
Running without being certain of the supply connection is not advised (bit of an understatement!)
Imho, it is well worth establishing a minimum of oil pressure before taking the big step.

The oil pipe connections have confused many folk because they are the other way round on pre-unit motors.

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,201
Likes: 161
T
Britbike forum member
Online Content
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,201
Likes: 161
Hi John, As was stated for unit 650/750 look at pipe at motor. Front is feed, follow it back. Inner/outer can cause mistakes as many different lines. T140 has 3/8 feed which makes it simple.

Did oil pressure light go out? If yes you are getting at least some oil pressure. That is most important. Gauge is the sure bet, but light is an indicator.

You may have not waited long enough for return. Depyon how much oil you had in sump & how long it takes to develop feed pressure & volume it can take a good 50-70 seconds to see return oil in tank. I’ve observed this several times. Another 15-30 seconds to get the air bleed & constant spurts.

If pressure light doesn’t go out in 15 seconds or so I get worried!

If light goes out promptly I relax & count down seconds for return. If ... light went out promptly I’d start it & give more time to see return before inspecting pump.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 124
Likes: 4
W
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
W
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 124
Likes: 4
Thanks Don, I will reinstall the oil lines and give it another try. Thank you for your time.
Regards
John

Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 124
Likes: 4
W
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
W
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 124
Likes: 4
Don and all.
I installed the oil lines back the way I had them, which was the correct way ... feed to the front and return to the rear pipe from the pump.

I started the bike and the oil light does go out after about 15 seconds at a fast idle. However, i still do not see any oil returning in the oil tank. I also have a clear line attaching the rocker feed pipe to the oil tank and it does not show any signs of oil.

So, what do I do know? Everything I have learned over the years when starting up an engine is to make sure you see oil returning from the top of the return tube in the oil tank. I do not want to ruin a freshly rebuilt engine counting on the oil pressure indicator light.

Regards
John

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,467
Likes: 147
K
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
K
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,467
Likes: 147
Did you add say 300ml to the crankcase? Do you have a filter on the return line?

If you start it up again I would hope the oil light would go out almost immediately, does it?

1 member likes this: Allan G
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,467
Likes: 147
K
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
K
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,467
Likes: 147
What an engine needs to survive is oil pressure to the crankshaft. That is what you must be absolutely certain of.
Without this all of your good work will be undone in a matter of seconds.

The return to the tank is another matter entirely, and not mission critical, as the above most definitely is.

That the OP light goes out is a good sign, though it only indicates perhaps 10psi.
At cold start you should see above 60psi.
Do you have a pressure gauge to fit temporarily?

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 9,136
Likes: 187
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 9,136
Likes: 187
Either just ride the bike, or put an oil pressure gauge on it if you are worried about oil pressure.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,201
Likes: 161
T
Britbike forum member
Online Content
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,201
Likes: 161
Hi John, After getting lines correct again, & starting again how long did you wait for return?

70 seconds is an eternity it seems.

As was stated pressure & return are 2 different not connected systems. The only shared item is the driving block.

With no load rod bearings will last long time at 7-10#.
Hooking test gauge will tell feed pressure, but will tell nothing about return side of pump. Yes feed & return share same casting but feed & return are stand alone systems.

I’ve never once seen pumping air turn light out. So you have some feed oil at least.

A few thoughts before removing pump. Did you wait the full 70 seconds the last test after correctly hooking up hoses?

If feed side is working but return not, oil level in tank will drop. Rather quickly. You can obviously see this with flashlight with motor running. Don’t let tank run dry!!
Now drain motor sump into container. Measure how much comes out. ‘70 has short scavenge tube. Expect 90-120cc if all is well. No return working what went low in tank will be in motor. That is a real deal test. Quart low in tank that quart plus the normal amount will drain from sump.

One bike had leaky check ball on return. A mile or two full tank was half down. That oil was in bottom of motor. There was still a return stream at tank, but no spurts of air as you should see.
Bench testing pump failed on return side check valve test. Inspected showed ball seat out of round. New pump cured.

Did you bench test pump per shop manual? That test is very real & valid. A good pump will have zero oil drop at port in 15 seconds. Any drop at all is a fail.

If dirt, gasket chip etc got into pump after start up that can happen, but you know if passed bench test pump was good.
Cleaning pump should make it good again. Silicone sealant if flaking of is weird. It will deform & suck through screen then get stuck in ball valve or PRV.

Did tank level drop unexpectedly?

I made video of testing oil pump. Pm me your email if you want a copy.

In a side note, the threads got pip pressure switch is 1/8-27 NPS. That is straight pipe thread NOT TAPERED NPT.

The adapter fitting for pressure is not made or readily available. Trust me don’t bother looking.

I have Harbor Freight automotive oil pressure test kit. It has gauge, long hose & a bunch of fittings. Use either the British straight pipe adapter with small oRing from ace hardware or 1/8-27 taper. Pay close attention now. Finger tight on this fitting only!!!! Tight as you can with thumb & finger. Any tighter you risk grave damage to timing cover!!!

Of course it will drip oil. No matter. If pump is making pressure the gauge will jump right up. I’ve done this on straight thread cover a few times. I made proper adapter in my lathe. Most don’t have one.

So first off did tank drop? How much oil is in sump?

I’m familiar with spin on filters dry frame 650. If you don’t pre fill filter with oil, add an additional 30-40 seconds to the return time. It’s really scary to wait nearly 2 minutes. But remember the feed pump is all important.
If you’re worried about rocker oil, pump oil into skinny rubber hose with pumper oil can. Rockers need very little oil.

If you remove pump don’t just take it apart. Bench test first.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 62
D
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
D
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 62
Given the cost and grief of an engine rebuild if lubrication is insufficient then surely a means to easily pressurise the lubrication system without turning the engine would make sense.

https://www.bes.co.uk/oil-line-suction-pump-16392/

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,387
Likes: 28
D
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
D
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,387
Likes: 28
Is it not alright to turn the engine without actually starting it up?

When using Allan G's trick I loosened the oil pressure valve a few turns rather than removing it when turning the engine. This way the oil leaks and reveals itself whilst the pressure can build up and get oil into the crank . I wore myself out kicking it a few times and then put it in first and pushed it down the road to get the desired result (spark plugs out).

I had only done a bottom end rebuild as the top end was ok. I don't know how much you can turn the engine on a top end rebuild.

As Don remarked on, when I change the oil and filter, it can seem an eternity waiting for the oil to return on starting the engine. What I noticed was that if you take the oil cap off with the engine running and look very carefully you can see the oil level dropping showing that at least the feed side of the the pump is working before the return appears. However, in the case of just an oil change you know that the system is working ok because it was before the new oil.

Once you have oil return you can force some oil to the valves by putting your finger over the return hole for a short time.

I am guessing that strobing electronic ignition on a new engine might not do it much good. I wonder if points would be better at this stage? You can still strobe them but only 2000rpm is needed. I remember that to strobe a rita it was an engine blowing 6500rpm! I had them do this to my Triumph blazer indoors in a shop when I was 18 and I had never heard anything like it!

Dave

Last edited by dave jones; 06/07/21 5:34 pm. Reason: mad sentence
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 11,654
Likes: 260
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 11,654
Likes: 260
Quote
I am guessing that strobing electronic ignition on a new engine might not do it much good.

No load so no adverse effect on engine, making sure the engine is timed correctly could save a holed piston, just get it done quickly as leaving the bike idling with no load will risk the rings not bedding it.

Dibnah #850993 06/07/21 3:27 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 9,136
Likes: 187
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 9,136
Likes: 187
Originally Posted by Dibnah
Given the cost and grief of an engine rebuild if lubrication is insufficient then surely a means to easily pressurise the lubrication system without turning the engine would make sense.

https://www.bes.co.uk/oil-line-suction-pump-16392/

[Linked Image from cdn-1.au.xmsymphony.com]


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
2 members like this: desco, KevRasen
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 228
Likes: 6
D
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
D
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 228
Likes: 6
I had a similar issue to this when I bought my bike. The chap selling it reckoned there was a 'bit of grit in the oil pump'. It had a rebuilt motor. I went mad trying to resolve it, turning to the Forum for advice. On mine, oil was blowing out of the breather, but not appearing to scavenge back to the tank. I read the East Coast Triumph directive on checking oil returning to tank, all to no avail. I took it apart numerous times, drained oil tank, blew through lines, checked direction of oil delivery, cleaned oil pump loads of times, tapped ball valves, bought a new PRV, checked for wet sumping, cleaned everything meticulously. Everybody advised don't buy a new oil pump, it'll be a waste of money. I bought a new oil pump and it was a waste of money.

What solved the problem? To be honest, I don't know. I was doing all this in the garage. In the end as TritonThrasher has suggested, I went for a ride on the bike around the block, came back, and somehow oil was returning to the tank, and just a little mist from the breather. All I can say is that it's a pretty simple system and there isn't much to go wrong. Not much consolation when you're fretting. By the way, the bike is running the oil pump that came with it.

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,201
Likes: 161
T
Britbike forum member
Online Content
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,201
Likes: 161
Hi, Another test is the vacuum test shown in shop manual. I've done it twice in real life. If good the vacuum jumps to about 22" almost instantly.

Bench test of pump is a real test. Again zero drop in port is a pass. Any drop is a failure. A good pump will have zero drop. Zero!

Pump pistons can have a surprising amount of scratches & still pump fine. Check ball problem is a problem that must be corrected.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 9,136
Likes: 187
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 9,136
Likes: 187
A working pump will quack and squirt oil in your eye when you work the plungers by hand.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 124
Likes: 4
W
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
W
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 124
Likes: 4
Thank you to everyone for their responses.

I followed Don's advice. When re-starting the engine, the oil light went out immediately and within 25 - 30 seconds, I was seeing a strong stream of oil from the return tube, so all is well.
Best regards
John

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 38
D
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
D
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 38
Glad to hear it worked out! Good luck with the bike.

John


1965 TR6SR (Project)
1967 T120R (cafe-ed but in restoration)
1967 TR6R (box stock)
1967 TR6C (chopped)
1967 TR6C (box stock)
1968 T120R (flat tracker)
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  John Healy 

Link Copied to Clipboard
British Cycle SupplyMorries PlaceKlempf British PartsBSA Unit SinglesPodtronicVintage MagazineBritBike SponsorBritish Tools & FastenersBritBike Sponsor






© 1996-2022 britbike.com
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5