Britbike forum

Classic British Spares Klempf British PartsBaxter Cycle BritBike Sponsor SteadfastCyclesSRM Engineering Lucas Classic Motorcycle Industrial tec supply Hepolite Pistons The Bonneville ShopLowbrow Customs

Upgrade your membership to: Premium Membership | Gold Membership | Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Member Spotlight
MikeG
MikeG
New Hampshier USA
Posts: 3,272
Joined: August 2001
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
Top Posters(30 Days)
quinten 91
Rohan 65
Top Likes Received (30 Days)
quinten 13
Newest Members
makrph, vanGinneke, Gearhard, yornocT120R, robert wilby
11,840 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
3 members (Gary Caines, Jeff K., Gordon Gray), 30 guests, and 66 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 426
Likes: 24
L
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
L
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 426
Likes: 24
Suggestion: none of the clutch actuation parts is real expensive, and with wear like that on one of the balls—which I’ve never experienced or even heard of— you might just go ahead and replace all three balls, and the inner and outer ramp parts they run in, and the adjuster on the other end, and maybe the rod too. You may as well start with all new parts— you’ve already spent the money and bought the 7 plate clutch and encountered unusual problems with associated clutch parts that got in the way and this might avoid other issues. As a “f’rinstance”, the balls are very hard and it seems wear like that couldn’t occur without also wearing the little cupped ramps the balls act on.

Last edited by linker48x; 05/29/21 11:52 pm.
1 member likes this: Hillbilly bike
Triumphs on eBay
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 48
Likes: 1
W
wind1 Offline OP
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
W
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 48
Likes: 1
Hi Linker48x-

I agree- I have ordered the assembly. Ramps, balls, spring and lever shaft. All for about $45. I bought a new rod when I put in the new clutch, but it touched the inspection plug on the cover when actuated. It is a fair bit longer than the existing one. The old ramp had a large wear mark which I thought was interesting so I will be posting a photo tomorrow. I think the one ball was never chromed from the factory.


That which doesn't kill us...
76 T140V
78 CX500
72 R75/5
19 Aprilia Tuono
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 772
Likes: 5
B
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
B
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 772
Likes: 5
There is a spec for the rod length to check against

Triumph 1963-1982
57-1736
.219"
11 13/16" (300mm)
Heat-treated ends


3D TV: A format that lost a format war without even having an opponent.
Bikes: '69 T120 on average (1967 rolling frame and 1971 Bonnie engine) + '56 1/2 T110 on average (58 rolling frame - with 55 iron head engine) + 74 T150 Home model.
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,725
Likes: 77
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,725
Likes: 77
Hi Dan, Sorry my last post didn't stick for some reason. I see you got the ball cam out. Removed the pawl plate, the the 2 counter sink screws. These can be very tight & I've found later bikes like T140s they are often loctited from factory. I heat the screws until spit steams they use impact screwdriver with cover sitting on my lap with a folded towel to protect my legs. I sit in a chair while doing this. I'd use blue loctite on the screws 242 or 243.

The balls wear. They also tend to rust. I expect the hard surface corroded off. They will pit & wear. The ball ramp will wear. The center pivot will wear. All this adds up to lost motion.

Regarding the rod, I've observed T140 rods starting in 1973 are shorter than spec in Manual. This is from new, not worn, yet part # is exactly the same. The T140 rod is often 11.750" long, while Manual spec is 11.812-11.822" long. So T140 rod tends to be about 1/16" shorter. I wonder if factory did this due to the adjuster screw hitting plug?? That's a guess.

Still the adjuster screw hitting plug is very common. I've shortened the slotted end of adjuster screw on several bikes. You can see rub mark on plug & I've seen 2 plugs worn through. I take a 3/8-24 nut, cut it half way through starting a point of hex. Run a bolt through it to deburr cut. . Now screw adjuster screw into nut. Clamp in vise such the slot will squeeze on threads & hold screw tight. This allows you to easily cut slotted tip of screw short. Then reslot screw with hack saw. I usually make screw just a tad longer than lock nut is thick. Adjust rod & lever, put dab of grease on tip of screw. Install plug. Pull lever a few times. remove plug & check for grease transfer.

The length of rod doesn't effect lift. The bar lever & cam movement produces lift. So long as you get rod adjustment good, Have enough threads on adjuster screw & nut, screw doesn't hit plug rod length doesn't really matter.

One way to "cheat" & get more lift is modify the lever or perch. Lever is easier. File lever thinner by about 1/32-3/64. maybe even 1/16". File it such the cable nipple pivot moves closer to perch. However keep enough metal to not unduly weaken the lever that nipple can pull out. The lever will be farther from grip. However you won't feel that really. This allows for more inches of cable pull. It doesn't take much more pull to get more lift. I've done this a few times when all else failed.

Of course a "spongy" cable will give lost motion as well. I will only use Barnett clutch cable. They are lined & give same easy lever effort as Venhill featherlite, yet the ends are much stronger as they are swaged steel, not soldered. Way stronger! I lube with motor oil like shown in shop Manual. I find it works well. You choose your lube. Lube definitively gives even easier pull.

On a side note it is very common to have a fair amount of rust in the outer cover area above the oil level. No cure I know of. The rust & wear weakens the gear shift centering springs. Early bikes have "normal" centering springs. Works ok. However in about '77 or '78 factory installed a much stiffer spring # 57-7051. Fatter spring wire & it has a decided curve to fit cover. These really helped left foot shift bikes & also work excellent for earlier years. I use them 100% of time. Positive centering of shift lever is essential for best shifting & really helps in finding neutral. I'd recommend fitting them. It is common for the springs to rust through. The sides wear thin as well.

I'd also put new oring on kicker shaft. It's a special X ring profile. I just buy from a parts seller by part #. No need to remove the tin seal retainer. Just pick out old ring with a pointed tool. Fit new ring back into cover. Very easy. Smooth shaft if/as needed with fine emery cloth followed by a quick rub with grey scotchbrite pad. Ace hardware sells the grey scotchbrite. (fine). Take very detailed photos of kicker shaft/spring, relationship to flat of kick shaft for cotter bolt & inner tip of spring. Looks really obvious how it goes until it falls off.... Get new cotter bolt just in case. Often they groove & don't tighten well. Nut goes towards front of bike. This lines up kicker arm correctly. Cotter backwards the arm slopes to rear too much. Some owners like it back though.

Regarding the loose nut that is bad. It should be tight. Very common to loosen. Sometimes it wears lock tab such nut backs way off.
Not so simple as just retightening... The loose nut allows the kicker gear bushing & washer against bearing to spin & wear. Almost certain to have wear with loose nut. Look at washer where bushing presses. If grooved, replace it. Look at end of bushing. It often wears tapered. So tightening tends to not hold as well in future. Also look very close at ratchet gear spring. The spring tends to wear on the center flat area. Tip of spring is not so critical. Center wear is serious. It will wear thin & spring breaks into 2 pieces. This reduces pressure on ratchet gear which can allow slipping of gear. A slip of gear will cause grave damage to the knee. Can easily end kicking with that leg the rest of your life. If any of these parts are damaged/worn replace them. If ratchet gears are worn, replace.

I put non gasketed covers on with loctite 518. Notice any screw threads that are not blind, but go to outside of motor, put sealant on the screw threads on these screws. Prevents trans oil from wicking out threads & leaking. I know on paper it shouldn't do that, but.... I've seen it a lot. I hate leaks.

Keep at this & you'll have a perfect working clutch. Makes bike so nice to ride.

Tip: 5 speed gear dogs are steeply back cut. This prevents gears from jumping out if even slight pressure is on gear teeth. This fights you getting neutral at times. If you blip throttle at stand still clutch pulled, then select neutral just as motor rpm peaks the gears are unloaded for a moment. Makes finding neutral a snap every time. This works even with a poorly adjusted clutch that is dragging some.

In neutral at stand still, it often takes 3 full seconds for gears to coast to stop after pulling clutch lever. If you can read the red light & pull lever at right time, it will go into gear without clunk. However wait too long & if dogs are not lined up, you'll have to clutch it & select first again. Often the light is now green & you must get first with a clunk & go or get rear ended. Lower idle rpm reduces gear momentum & shortens their coasting time. But too low & motor can die if motor gets too heat soaked.

I find clutch work really interesting & fun.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 48
Likes: 1
W
wind1 Offline OP
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
W
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 48
Likes: 1
https://i.imgur.com/T3wkMPwm.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/MSao4u1m.jpg

Thanks Guys-

Amazoned an impact driver and the screws came out fine. Attached snaps of the ball and ramp. I'm sure that nailed the lift problem. Good call Don on checking the centering springs, as they both looked fine on a quick check. I pulled them out and the one was broken. I will pick up the ramp assembly, seal and thicker springs tomorrow. Have a dial gauge to check the lift once done.

I'm going to shorten the adjuster as you described as I have the new rod anyways. Tried to remove some meat from the adjuster cover with a 1/2" drill bit but not enough.

Will check the Kicker mechanism more closely before assembly. I was wondering what to seal the cover with. Was looking at permatex or Hylomar. will try the lactate. I also noticed the wicking you were talking about on the lower stud from the case through to the cover.

Will let you know how it all goes when together.

Cheers


That which doesn't kill us...
76 T140V
78 CX500
72 R75/5
19 Aprilia Tuono
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,725
Likes: 77
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,725
Likes: 77
Hi Dan, For sealant 518 is my sealant of choice. Not cheap, but very effective & easy to use. Allows easy removal. Hylomar is good also if you have some already maybe just use it.


I’m not such a fan of Permatex or sealants with a death grip. Someday cover will need to be removed again.


Most sealants have use by date. When aged they don’t cure proper, some never cure. This includes 518 & Hylomar. Devon container code is obvious or not. The tubes have use by code on the crimp at bottom of tube. Very hard to read, so look close. eBay & Amazon have great prices. Often/most of the time sealant is expired. Grangers is more costly but I find the sealant is not expired. Use life is only a few years. If expired Grangers takes it back. I just bought new 243 & 518 from Graingers. Good fresh stock.


Modern sealants are costly. But they work & can last 30+ years without leaking. Kind of worth it really.

We park on sidewalk often at lunch stops before Covid. Oil drips are tolerated. Flat surfaces, modern sealants assure no leaks.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 48
Likes: 1
W
wind1 Offline OP
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
W
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 48
Likes: 1
That explains the miserable time I had removing the clutch cover and valve covers. Black rubbery sealant must have been permatex. I will use my hylomar and see how that goes.


That which doesn't kill us...
76 T140V
78 CX500
72 R75/5
19 Aprilia Tuono
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,725
Likes: 77
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,725
Likes: 77
Hi Dan, Hard to say what that sealant is. If you've ever tried to separate a case glued with Mercedes black silicon, Suzuki Bond, Tribond, You'll think the case may break & it could... I've gotten very fussy about sealants in the last several years.

One thing I find interesting/puzzling with Hylomar is used on gaskets such as valve cover & primary, the screws often need a tightening after a few rides. I've marked the screws. They are not backing out. It's the sealant and or gasket is "shrinking" or the like. Not experienced this metal to metal, just with gaskets. Same exact gasket dry or greased doesn't do that. I don't really understand exactly what's going on. Just an observation.

One thing that's changed is most gaskets are now asbestos free. Original Triumph gaskets were not. Asbestos is bad for mechanic's lungs. Sadly asbestos free simply doesn't work as well. We experienced this at work everyday.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 48
Likes: 1
W
wind1 Offline OP
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
W
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 48
Likes: 1
Hi Don-
After working waaayyyy too many hours, finally got back to putting the bike together. Lift is now a little over .090", and no clutch dragging. Shift seems to be good and I can even find neutral, although I have to give it more of a proper road test.

Picked up some Wellseal from Walridge (does not dry) and no leaks so far. A few more issues to contend with (speedo speed is too fast and have to finish some wiring), but looking forward to getting it on the road. Thanks for all the help!


That which doesn't kill us...
76 T140V
78 CX500
72 R75/5
19 Aprilia Tuono
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,725
Likes: 77
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,725
Likes: 77
Hi Wind1, That’s great news. Very welcome!

Neutral is a bit harder on 5 speed The shifter travel is a little less than 4 speed so you need tone a little more precise with lever. However the main reason is the gear dogs are steeply back cut. So they want to lock together tightly.

Try this little trick. Wait until you’re at standstill. Lightly blip throttle. Just as the rpm peaks & just ready to fall. Select neutral at that moment. Even with some clutch drag it allows reliable neutral selection. Takes a bit of practice, once you get the feel, makes life very easy.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  John Healy 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Job CycleBritish Cycle SupplyMorries PlaceKlempf British PartsPodtronicVintage MagazineBSA Unit SinglesBritBike SponsorBritish Tools & FastenersBritBike SponsorBritBike Sponsor






© 1996-2021 britbike.com
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5