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Cheese head because the head of the screw resembled a typical cheese “truckle” (wheel/round)


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

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Originally Posted by Allan G
Cheese head because the head of the screw resembled a typical cheese “truckle” (wheel/round)

I googled "cheese truckle" and there are many images of cheese wheels, but nothing even remotely resembling the indented cross. Though, I suppose the head of the screw itself resembles a cheese wheel...


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
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I thought maybe they were Fasteners preferred by residents of Wisconsin...


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Originally Posted by GrandPaul
Originally Posted by Allan G
Cheese head because the head of the screw resembled a typical cheese “truckle” (wheel/round)

I googled "cheese truckle" and there are many images of cheese wheels, but nothing even remotely resembling the indented cross. Though, I suppose the head of the screw itself resembles a cheese wheel...

To be honest I haven’t a clue, when I gave it a quick clue it came up with “truckle”. I thought using the word truckle instead of just wheel sounded more believable 😂 I could be right or wrong but I thought it sounded interesting.


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71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

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I always assumed it was because that at the first sign of the wrong screwdriver, or the right screwdriver used half arsed, the head of the screw will instantly turn to cheese and round out.


And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth'

An interesting point given recent events.

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Yes--that certainly sounds familiar!

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Since many BS/W tools that once were made are no longer available new, to know what to look for on the used market, please add to the following list of motorcycle-appropriate hand tools that at one time were available from name-brand manufacturers[*]:

Sockets:
¼" ______________ 0 – 10 BA
¼" deep __________ 0 – 8 BA
¼" ______________ 3/16" – ⅜ BS
⅜" ______________ 3/16" – 9/16" BS
⅜" deep __________ 3/16" – 9/16" BS
½" ______________ 7/16" – ⅞" BS
½" impact _________ 7/16" – ⅞" BS
½" deep __________ ¼" – ⅞" BS
¾" ______________ ⅞" – 1½" BS

Spanners:
Combination ______ 1 BA – 11/16" BS
Combination short _ 1 BA – 7/16" BS
Offset ring ________ 0×1 – 4×6 BA
Offset ring ________ 5/16"×⅜" – ¾"×⅞" BS
Compact offset ring _ 3/16"×¼" – 7/16"×½" BS
Swivel socket ______ ¼W×3/16W; ⅜W×5/16W; ½W×7/16W. (Heyco)
Open ____________ 0×1 – 8×10 BA
Open ____________ 3/16"×¼" – ⅝"×11/16" BS

Other:
BA nut drivers ______ 0– 8 BA
Tube sockets ______ ¼"×5/16" – ½"×9/16" BS

Of course, larger sockets and spanners than listed above were available so if you've found them useful for motorcycle work, please add them to the list. Also, it turns out Snap-On made ¼" sockets at sometime within the past two or three decades, and they sold spanners under their cheaper Blue Point brand in the distant past.

[*]Please add to this list as well: Acesa, Armstrong, Bahco, Bedford, Blue Point, Brenco, Britool, Craftsman, Draper, Dufor, Elora, Eurotech, Hazet, Heyco, JTMA, King Dick, Koken, Proto, Sidchrome, Snap-On, Stahlwille, Superslim (Williams), Trax and T&E.

Last edited by Magnetoman; 05/28/21 3:24 am. Reason: added more tools
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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
... it turns out Snap-On made ¼" sockets at sometime within the past two or three decades, and they sold spanners under their cheaper Blue Point brand in the distant past.

Hmmmmm.....

I have a Blue Point tall mechanic's tool box, and never knew it was a Snap-On spin off (pun not intentional)

(it was given to me, and like the proverbial gift horse, I didn't ask too many questions)

Last edited by GrandPaul; 05/25/21 8:02 pm.

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My favourite set of stud extractors are in a case that says Blue Point , Snap-on Tool Corporation, but the small print on the extractors themselves says Rigid and Rigid Tool supplies the replacement pieces. Also have identical water pump pliers, but they have different brand names. Those tool suppliers are an insestuous bunch.

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Originally Posted by GrandPaul
Originally Posted by Allan G
Cheese head because the head of the screw resembled a typical cheese “truckle” (wheel/round)

I googled "cheese truckle" and there are many images of cheese wheels, but nothing even remotely resembling the indented cross. Though, I suppose the head of the screw itself resembles a cheese wheel...
I know this is boring, but "cheese head" refers to the shape of the head, not the slot type. I don't know if the "pan head" nickname for H-Ds of a certain age came from the eponymous screws.

There's a bit more info at Fastener Engineering



As soon as this digression started, I had visions of John Cleese and Michael Palin

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Originally Posted by Shane in Oz
As soon as this digression started, I had visions of John Cleese and Michael Palin
Have you in fact got any cheese head screws here at all?


1970 T120R - 'Anton'
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Quote
Since many BS/W tools that once were made are no longer available new, to know what to look for on the used market, please add to the following list of motorcycle-appropriate hand tools that at one time were available from name-brand manufacturers[*]:

I did a quick search on Google for the first 3 listed set of sockets and came up with the following:-

- ¼" 0 – 10 BA - Laser tools 1/4 BA sockets
- ¼" deep - 0 – 8 BA Laser tools 1/4 BA sockets deep
- ¼" 3/16" – 3/8 BS stahlwille socket set

These are supplied by Prime Tools UK who seem to have a huge selection of sockets, spanners, and other tools made by good quality manufacturers including Laser and Stahwille.

Dont know about the other size sockets and spanners but detailed Googling often pays off.

Last edited by gunner; 05/25/21 10:24 pm.

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First thing I did on the A10 project was replace all the Brit Fasteners with US stuff. 95 percent of the threaded aluminum holes were the same as US coarse....I have "Whitworth" good quality sockets and combo spanners, but way more US "wrenches" that can fit any situation..


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons.."I don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
95 percent of the threaded aluminum holes were the same as US coarse.
The thread angles and thread form are different even though some pitches are the same, so some UNC sizes will "fit".

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Originally Posted by gunner
Quote
Since many BS/W tools that once were made are no longer available new, to know what to look for on the used market, please add to the following list of motorcycle-appropriate hand tools that at one time were available from name-brand manufacturers[*]:

I did a quick search on Google for the first 3 listed set of sockets and came up with the following:-

- ¼" 0 – 10 BA - Laser tools 1/4 BA sockets
- ¼" deep - 0 – 8 BA Laser tools 1/4 BA sockets deep
- ¼" 3/16" – 3/8 BS stahlwille socket set

These are supplied by Prime Tools UK who seem to have a huge selection of sockets, spanners, and other tools made by good quality manufacturers including Laser and Stahwille.

Dont know about the other size sockets and spanners but detailed Googling often pays off.

I wouldn’t go as far as to suggest that Laser was a good quality too manufacturer.

@magnetoman

“Garrington” was an old quality spanner name you don’t hear so much of now, that I have in my collection.

Not sure if these do BSW sizes but, Teng, MAC, Facom, WERA are really good top quality brands.

Sealey (older stuff if you can get it) and Kamasa are also really good tools but not on the same spec as those on the above paragraph.


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68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
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Yes, 1/4- 20 and 5/16-18 thread in just like the Brit Fasteners.That covered everything on the engine cases and side covers..I remember Triumph pre unit threads were different...l have some Blue Point tools, chisels, and gear pullers...The Mac socket sets I bought in the late 70's are superb quality and tolerated impact wrenches and heat . Matco and Wright also take abuse. Most of my sockets are black impact rated. The chrome ones are smaller thin walls and odd sizes..


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons.."I don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"
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Originally Posted by Shane in Oz
even though some pitches are the same, so some UNC sizes will "fit".

All the common small sizes are the same threads per inch between BSW and UNC
(Whitworth and Unified Coarse)

EXCEPT for 1/2"

BSW is 12 tpi
UNC is 13 tpi

This used to catch farm tractor jockeys out something terrible.
If the plough hitch 1/2" (BSW) bolts on yer Massey Ferguson snapped or stripped out and you replaced them again with 1/2" UNC, then the thread was really b*ggered.
And if the plough hitch 1/2" bolts (UNC) on yer John Deere snapped or stripped out and you replaced them again with 1/2" BSW, then the thread was really b*ggered.

As they often did, in fact.
1/2" weren't really strong enough in either scenario, goodness knows why they chose that size.

An ancestor of mine used to specialize in making them good again with 5/8" or even bigger bolts.
Offered a mobile-on-farm-service in fact.
Reckons he made a good living for some years out of it, without even charging the earth.
He was always careful to do American Tractors in UNC, and Brit/Aussie tractors in BSW.

But we diverge, a tad.
Differing threads being a topic you could write volumes on, and never cover everything.

* SPECIAL NOTE * Ye all primed for the super blood full moon total lunar eclipse this eve (safe to watch with yer eyes).
Last one this good until sometime in the 2030s. Starts ere in a few hours.

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Originally Posted by Rohan
Reckons he made a good living for some years out of it, without even charging the earth.
He was always careful to do American Tractors in UNC, and Brit/Aussie tractors in BSW.
Aussie-made tractors were a bit of a mixed bag, Later Inters (at least the A554 and 564) used SAE Fasteners, despite the D264 engine apparently being based on an English design. I don't remember what the AW6 used, but I think SAE as well.
Chamberlains used Perkins engines, so probably standardised on BS/W.
Aussie Masseys would have been the British one made locally,

Baldwins are comparatively modern, and I think used a Cat or Cummins engine and something like a Road Ranger transmission. I never saw on on the flesh, so that's just faded memories.

Originally Posted by Rohan
* SPECIAL NOTE * Ye all primed for the super blood full moon total lunar eclipse this eve (safe to watch with yer eyes).
Last one this good until sometime in the 2030s. Starts ere in a few hours.
Yep. It's even a clear evening, so I can just gawk out the front windows without having to stick my nose outside into the cold air.

I think it was overcast last time there was a lunar eclipse, but good to go this time.

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Hee is a heathen American so cheese comes in a can.
"Fresh cheese " come in plastic
and "Foreign cheese" comes in red wax balls laughing


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Yeah, we eat Canadian and Irish cheese, comes in plastic. Stinky European chesse is covered in wax or mold :gri
I had a 63 MGB for a number of years and rebuilt the engine and suspension...Were they British Fasteners, I don't remember...Before that rebuilt my 67 Triumph 650 with only metric and SAE tools...Some grinding on a few open ends so they fit...


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons.."I don't know what the world may need
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Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"
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The drawings in 'Machinery's Handbook' aren't perfect, but to the extent they are reasonably accurate the following scaled drawing of a NC fastener (black) in a Whitworth BSW nut or tapped hole (red) shows why this combination fits reasonably well.

[Linked Image]

Note that all the text in the above diagram goes with the fastener even when in the area with the red background.

Only if the black areas were inside the red ones, which would show the fastener was inside the metal of the nut, would there be difficulty inserting the fastener. Basically, because the top of the 'V' of the NC thread form is rounded there isn't any interference, although it looks like a precision fastener made with threads having flat tops would slightly dig into a Whitworth nut.

While the NC/BSW combination "fits," the difference between the 60° and 55° angles of the walls mean the contact is less than 100% so the joint will be weaker than if the Fasteners were properly matched.

Last edited by Magnetoman; 05/27/21 12:06 am. Reason: I got distracted by 'C' for "coarse", as in National Coarse, when it is Whitworth that's coarse
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I have built more than a few modified, AKA hot rod cars and bikes and cobbed up repairs on beat vehicles..Fasteners are important and often compromises are made. The person doing the work has to be aware and have a good feel for how the bolt or nut treads into place. How the fastener reacts as it's tightened...Hands on experience is required and some never acquire the fine touch.To me, the vehicle/bike build gives me feedback, like I can lay a hand on it to feel it's pulse.. Yes, a bit over the top for some but not for me.


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons.."I don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"
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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
a Whitworth BSC nut .

Technically, what precisely would you say a "Whitworth BSC" nut is ??

Not to distract from your excellent comparo of thread systems details....

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Its an American thing, I just accept that out transatlantic cousins have a different way of putting things and that Whitworth to them is a catchall for the old brit system. In the UK Whitworth has or at least had , a much more specific meaning , denoting the coarse thread used in heavy industry and some less fine applications, the Americans have a different Whitworth history to the UK. it used to bug me, now I accept it as a linguistic quirk.


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I would accept that, and indeed is/are/was well aware of it.
But I still get out my red pen and put on my proofreaders cap and put a slash through it to mark it as technically incorrect.

Bit like someone on another forum just told us that all bolts need to be OILED before torquing.
Really ????

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