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#849826 05/24/21 10:28 am
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Wes 3ta Offline OP
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Thanks for letting me join.After years of classic jap bikes I am hopefully for filling the dream of a British bike.I have found a nice 2 owner 3ta but I have a couple of questions I can not find answers for through searching.
1st the engine has side points not the dizzy on the back,from my searching is this correct that the Dutch army bikes only had this engine number is 3ta.Coils have been fitted under seat so no air box fitted.
2nd Is this set up better then the dizzy as a new person to British bikes it's all learning and again searching has led to only finding the coils should be under tank.Another worry is getting replace points etc if only fitted to Dutch bikes.
Sorry for the questions but I will be using an inheritance to do this so do not went to end up with a lemon the rest of the bike looks great.
Thanks in advance.
Picture of the bike
[img]https://ibb.co/42xqcyV[/img]

Last edited by Wes 3ta; 05/24/21 10:28 am.
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We could do with the engine and frame numbers (not necessarily the whole thing). The side points came in in 1964, but the "bathtub" enclosure you have was only fitted up to 1963, so something does not match. There may have been an engine change with some "creative" number stamping, a pic of your engine number should tell all. The side points are the same as used on many late British bikes, and there were two different varieties over the years, but parts are readily available whatever. Parts Manual are available online for free, but you do need to know what you have. Whatever, she does look the part!

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Thank you for the reply 😊 I hope these pictures help as I really like the bike and the price seams good looking at others but would like to relocate the coils to under tank so I could get airbox back on which is not a big deal if mounts are there.Wireing I can sort as well.
[img]https://ibb.co/j6NSYfj[/img]

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Good info from Tinkertoo. To answer one question I would say that the side points are better than the dizzy set up although the dizzy is fine to use. Sometimes the dizzy gears wear making some extra backlash, however.

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Hi Wes,

Your linked images are not displaying (bold added):

"Pasteboard.co offers a range of useful tools to share your screenshots and images online for JPEG, PNG, GIF, APNG, and TIFF although these can be a maximum of only 10MB. ... However, they also prevent the use of hotlinking making it impossible to embed uploaded images on external websites."


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What you need to display a photo / image is to use the /xxx.jpg or .gif or .png ending format then it works
like below
Your link was to a page not a photo
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Last edited by Morgan aka admin; 05/24/21 1:43 pm.

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It looks a pretty bike. So many lost their bathtub. I had three of them and none still had the tub. As standard it would have had a dizzy, 18bhp, plain drive side main bearing. It looks pretty original from drive side. Maybe it's got a T90 exhaust cam, timing cover etc (if they swap)? BTW, as you probably know, somebody's flogged the original number plate at some time.

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[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

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frame is late 1960
engine is 1966

Last edited by quinten; 05/24/21 4:53 pm.
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Thank you again for the replys.So has the engine been restamped ??? Yes I do know the reg is not original 😔
Would the mounts be under the tank to relocate the coils would like to get air box back on.Pleased it's not a tarted up army one being 1960.If the engine parts are easily available then not much of a worry there once I find out which system it uses could it be a restamped T90 ???
I guess big question is do I go for it I am hoping to pick it up for around the 3k mark

Last edited by Wes 3ta; 05/24/21 5:06 pm.
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The engine number stamping may well be correct, as I said, the side points did not come in until 1964. The dizzy only used a single coil, dunno where it was mounted, it needs a bit more expertise than mine to say if the coils can be fitted under the tank - over to a real expert! £k is not out of order for a machine to ride.

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Very nice looking bike and welcome to the forum

I would say the engine # has been re-stamped

The font is not the same as originals

For 1961 you should have the 18D2 unit

Are you running the 4CA set-up?


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dont think its a restamp , theres a crease under the 5
but this looks like the 5 may have bounced during stamping .

Until better information comes along I would assume ...someone took a 66 engine and dropped it into
a 1960 frame .

happens often enough .that a surplus engine
finds a good frame .
it more unusual that the bathtub bits stayed on a frame .
it may have been tucked away for years with a bad engine until one day the 66 engine happened along ?

Sticklers for a bathtub 3TA will notice right away the lack
of distributor ... so that speaks alittle to the value of a authentic parts .
.... but not to how the it runs .

Assuming the 66 isnt totally knackered ,
the 66 engine will have 5 years worth of incremental improvements
one of them being the side points .

The points hole on triumphs stayed standard through the end of production
so there are plenty of ATUs that will fit and plenty of standard aftermarket
Electronic ignitions that will bolt right in .

The old distributor Drive shaft has a habit of going out of around as its bushing wears .
when this happens .. 180 degee firing is lost ... so only one cylinder can be timed
and other cylinder can only be timed within the error of the dizzy shaft runout .
( less of a problem on a softly tuned engine like a 350 ) but one of the reasons
Distributors is general went the way of the Dodo

dont know where they put the coil on a 61 model , but it only had the one coil to hide .
if the gas tank doesn't have cutouts for coils ... it may hard to tuck 2 of them up underneath the tank ?
the side points engine uses 2 coils ...

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Coil was fitted on the inner fender under the seat

Large 48mm coil


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Hi Wes,
Originally Posted by Wes 3ta
engine has side points not the dizzy
Is this set up better then the dizzy
'Fraid a "How long is a piece of string?" question.

Define "better":-

. Any dizzy is a mechanical assembly getting on for (if not past) sixty years old, for which no-one has made decent replacement components for decades.

. The points fitted originally to a '66 3TA are the horrible Lucas 4CA, that included the condensers, that fail because they get hot inside the engine. facepalm Even if the points plate has been upgraded to the later 6CA, fewer and fewer Britbike owners have been using points for decades so their quality has been declining for years.

. '61 engine originally had a dizzy, switching a single coil mounted on the rear mudguard covered by the bathtub. When Triumph dispensed with the dizzy in favour of two sets of points, they also made space to mount two coils under the tank. That this bike has two coils mounted on the mudguard, how 'reliable' the ignition is depends on the ability of the person who wired the electrics. Do you see red-, blue- and/or yellow-insulated terminals squashed on to wires? thumbsdown Are the points connected to one each of the coils' terminals specifically with Black/White and Black/Yellow wires? If not, thumbsdown

Ironically, there is an easy, reliable, modern way to connect a "twin sidepoints" engine to a single coil ... called electronic ignition. smile

Originally Posted by Wes 3ta
I will be using an inheritance to do this so do not went to end up with a lemon
It isn't "a lemon" but any Britbike, and especially a sixty-odd-year-old bitsa, simply requires far more owner input than pretty-much any Japanese bike. If your inheritance leaves you enough to buy lots of tools (e.g. pretty-much all the Fasteners are British Standard, nothing "classic jap" metric fits), and you won't be disappointed when new parts have to be hauled to a friendly local engineer before they'll fit, running an old Britbike can be rewarding, because you have to fix pretty-much everything yourself.

Btw, that particular bike probably doesn't have its original reg. "S" indicates a Scottish reg.; many original registrations without year letters were transferred to rich people's penis enlargers and donor vehicles like that 3TA were given registrations originally allocated to sparsely-populated counties but never issued.

Hth.

Regards,

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Thanks again for replys.I am not worried about the plate change knew this already.As for tools I have a kitted workshop from doing my other bikes and imperial not a problem as I also run a classic British car.But as I said at the start this is my first British bike and proberly the last bike I will buy I think 5 in the garage is about right 🙄
So I am guessing electronic is the way to go then had another look today as it was dry here runs lovely , tickled the carb no choke started 2nd kick from cold.The chap has had it since 1990 and is the 2nd owner so was the first that did the engine change at some point.Got him to 3k so think I will go for it.I really do appreciate the input and thanks again I am sure I will have more questions.

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I have points on my 650 and it is fine. If your bikes runs as well as you say you can leave the points. Depends on how many miles you do on it .

Dave

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Hi Wes,
Originally Posted by Wes 3ta
not worried about the plate change knew this already.As for tools I have a kitted workshop from doing my other bikes and imperial not a problem as I also run a classic British car.
Got him to 3k so think I will go for it.
thumbsup

Thanks for the clarification. smile

Regards,

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Hi Wes

Did you buy it?

Peter

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Going to have another look tomorrow then will report back 👍

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It looks clean and tidy (from the two images appearing here) someone has paid attention to detail. All I can see missing is the extended chrome knob that screws into the seat locating plunger (are they available any more).
The 3TA is a sweet tootle around bike in stock form, however so many have been T90 ised or even T100ised. I had an H13**** as my third bike (post D1 Bantam and T20 Tiger cub). It had a trashed timing side plain bearing - so no oil pressure, and inside had Daytona cams, pointy top 11:1 Powermaxes and a Daytona head!! I had the crank welded up and reground to standard size and went back to the early squish-band pistons and smaller combustion chamber head to run with a Monoblock of sensible size.
Weak points (at least for a tweaked engine) were the average front brake (the 7"TLS drops straight in) whippy front forks and swan-neck frame that relies on the petrol tank for reinforcement (and subsequently cracks at the front when abusing it!). The early alternator stators were not encapsulated and were prone to failure, I can't imagine that it does not have a later 12v epoxy encapsualated type by now.
Sold mine as I built a couple of Daytonas and a T100C to full spec. as I had really caught the bug.
For me the Lucas RITA worked very well for years (until it died just coming down to Shepherds Bush roundabout at speed) I pushed it(!!) up to Hamrax in Ladbrooke Grove and they only had the Boyer - which worked fine (but I think lost me a little power) but at the time it was my daily machine and I did not know how to fix the RITA then.
There are quite a few electronic units around (CDI type) but you may lose lights?
Yours should have the little plunger on the oil pressure relief valve (near timing cover that pops out when you have oil pressure).
Sorry for a ramble but I have got lots of tales from running these bikes very hard from 1981 to 1995 (followed by900 Trophy then 900 Daytona)

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Hi Wes, Neil,
Originally Posted by Neil1964
Weak points
The early alternator stators were not encapsulated and were prone to failure, I can't imagine that it does not have a later 12v epoxy encapsualated type by now.
You might be surprised, I'm currently helping a local guy with a '66 3TA, we're in the process of replacing what appears to be the original unencapsulated stator with something more suitable for the 21st century (and wrestling with Wassell's usual 'quality control' ...).

Btw, any stator is not "12v" (or '6V'), that's down to the regulation of the DC. As ignition components have been changed to accommodate the '66 engine, it'll be interesting to know if the fitter(?) also upgraded the charging for 12V DC.

Hth.

Regards,

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Hi Stuart
Thanks, yes the early stators come with options on early versions for high and low outputs depending on the load (lights off or on) which brought in more coils on the stator and the battery type whether 6v or 12 (both 3TA and the 'competition' versions from mids 60s CDI type) so you can wire an early one for 6 or 12v syatem.

Later ones only came with two wires which go to the outer legs of the rectifier and the Zener on the +ve terminal kicks in at 14.4v on these (IIRC).
I gave all my handbooks, manuals and tuning booklets away with the last two Daytonas so this is from memory!

In principle the 12v system is better with lower current and wider range of bulbs etc. IIRC the change over from 6v to 12v was around 66/67 - maybe someone can say for sure

The way for the OP to determine what he has available is how many wires in the insulation coming from the top of the chaincase?

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Neil1964 - your 3TA engine sounds like one I 'assembled' in 1977/78. I've recounted the tale before, but once more........I had a lovely looking 69/70 T100T (Daytona) that I bought in haste and repented at leisure over. It was a matching numbers bike, but in short order I found I had a cracked head, which I got somebody to weld up for me. Bores seemed a bit worn so local machine shop measured it and told me it was 11 thou out. So rebored it with new Hepolites. Anyway, bike seemed to run well if you thrashed it........I then managed to break the crankshaft which also took out the cases. Woe is me and skint What shall I do? Coincidentally, a mate of a mate had been to Beaulieu Autojumble and come back with a spare 3TA bottom end for his bike which I persuaded him to sell me (£9 from memory). I swapped all the Daytona bits over onto the 3TA bottom end. By now I was pretty disillusioned, so I swapped this mongrel for a hand painted MG Midget (why, oh why) and £60 my way. A few years later I saw the bike and somehow it was back to matching numbers again (I'd slung the old cases and crank, as you did back then). I'm guessing somebody somewhere ended up with that hybrid engine.........

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Is there any suggestion thus far that this bike needs a new ignition system?

“had another look today as it was dry here runs lovely, tickled the carb no choke started 2nd kick from cold”

So it seems to be good as is.

Similarly, no suggestion that the charging system isn’t up to scratch. I would advise the you to try a long ride with the lights on in daylight to be sure.

Also to establish whether the installed battery is 6 or 12V. The bulbs will also give this info.
Also whether it has a Zener diode, or not.

The alternator stator could be any from the original to the latest. If its 2 wire then you know its one of the RM21 varieties.
If 3-wire then could be original open stator RM19, or later encapsulated RM19.

Unlikely to be 3-phase RM24, you will know if so because the rectifier will take all 3 wires directly.

The surefire way to tell is to remove the chaincase and examine it using a feeler gauge between the rotor and stator. All ordinary single phase stators will show 6 poles, the 3-phase has 9 poles.

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