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Mark. L #848428 05/08/21 5:06 pm
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Zinc is part of additive package with phosphorous, ZDDP. It became common in US oils right after WW2 .It was increased over the years in many brands but not all. Bought my first Triumph , 67 650 in 1975. Everyone used Castrol GT 20/50 , so that's what I used for many years....Exhaust cam wear was an issue on some bikes , the nitrided cams fixed the problem.


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Mark. L #848432 05/08/21 5:29 pm
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Originally Posted by mondster
How many failures do we read/hear about from 50 or 60 years ago?

50 years ago I dismantled a few well-used pre-unit engines. Cam and follower wear/damage was just about universal.

One of the characteristics of Triumphs was that they seemed to run ok with dented tappets and threepenny-bitted cams.

A threepenny bit:

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Last edited by triton thrasher; 05/08/21 5:37 pm.

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triton thrasher #848444 05/08/21 6:13 pm
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Originally Posted by triton thrasher
50 years ago I dismantled a few well-used pre-unit engines. Cam and follower wear/damage was just about universal.

One of the characteristics of Triumphs was that they seemed to run ok with dented tappets and threepenny-bitted cams.

Thanks, that's more or less what I figured. Is it reasonable to say that there have always been problems and how we handle the problems today has changed more than the composition of the oil?

Mark. L #848447 05/08/21 6:32 pm
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Only old bike enthusiasts ride these bikes nowadays.

At one time, at least in Britain, people were buying old worn ones and trying to eke out some more miles from them, without spending any money.


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mondtster #848468 05/08/21 11:49 pm
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Originally Posted by mondtster
Is it reasonable to say that there have always been problems and how we handle the problems today has changed more than the composition of the oil?

Naaah, synthetic oil* has revolutionized the science of lubrication.
And the additive packages have become sooo specialized.
The engines will now outlast the rest of it.
Trouble is, few of them* suit old bangers. !

Ford was selling little sewing machine engines here that used 0w-0 grade oil.
Thinner than water.
It was soo thin, in really hot weather it wasn't adequate !

Originally Posted by mondtster
Is it reasonable to say that there have always been problems and how we handle the problems today has changed more than the composition of the oil?

Yes, over on the Norkons page folks are discussing mods to the oil pump that prevent oil flowing while its parked in the shed. Thats re-engineering to the ultimate degree. !!
Back in the old days, they just rode them ...

And while we are here, Aeroshell 100* has been used on tens of thousands of Lycomings and Contis,
for generations now. Can't be too much wrong with it. (*Before the semi synthetic took over).
Those scar tests are more severe than anything that happens inside an engine ?

Mark. L #848491 05/09/21 7:26 am
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Detergents do not clean.
Never have & never will
Detergents carry way what SOLVENTS & SURFICANTS remove so you have have to read labels carefully.
If BSA owners spent as much time actually changing their oils as they do argueing about them then this thread would not be here.

Also Commandos are long stroke high compression engines so what is "best" for a Commando might not be best for a BSA
and what is best for an A65 might not be the best for a B50MX
Whar=t racers use is rarely suitable for road use
What Trials tiders use again is not the best for road use
But all of them are fine if you just change the bloody stuff regularly.
Considering how little oil goes into any BSA there s really no excuse for not changing it almost every time you use it
What does it cost?,,,,,,,,, 2 coffees and a hamburger ?…….. 1/2 a packet of cigarettes ?

lab oi, testing is not supposed to represent real life situations
Find a spot in an engine where a ball bearing has to stop a rotating disc .
Oil tests are done to evaluate the differences between different formulas.
As for cooling.
If you are racing then yes the thermal conductivity of the oil might be significant but remember 80% of the heat goes out the exhaust , not through the oil .
If BSA wanted the oil to cool the head then the rocker feed would be 1" diameter not 1/8" .

If you really want to get some useful knowledge on motorcycle oild then search the old archives on this forum for posts by Gerry Bristow who formulated a lot of tha BP motorcycle oils and also for one of the motorcycle specialist , from memory Bel Ray .


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Mark. L #848492 05/09/21 7:29 am
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Lycoming 3400 rpm info from the Lycoming website.

Low viscosity oil is OK provided that the engine is designed for it. I can't think of a modern car that's sold in the UK that widely suffers catastrophic engine wear, although some cam chains can be a problem approx 150k miles onwards. In the 1960s and 70s, it wasn't unusual for car engines to need a full rebuild after 50 - 60k miles, assuming that the car wasn't scrapped beforehand due to rust.

BSA_WM20 #848495 05/09/21 8:15 am
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Detergents are surfactants - more or less - if anyone can distinguish them then ....
You only have to sniff the open oil bottle to get a whiff of the detergents.

Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
If you really want to get some useful knowledge on motorcycle oild then search the old archives on this forum for posts by Gerry Bristow who formulated a lot of tha BP motorcycle oils and also for one of the motorcycle specialist , from memory Bel Ray .

Gerry Bristow RIP worked for Duckhams. He was an executive (?) but had good oil info.And a keen Norton and Commando owner. Duckhams developed 20-40 multigrade, before they got fancy and had a w in them, or had gazillions of grades of multigrades.

He switched to using Mobil 1, and swore by it, did many a mile on his Mk 3 Commando without any engine overhauls.
I'm pretty sure that was Mobil 1 15W/50 - which became unavailable at some point, not sure if that is still the case ?
Perfect for Commandos/dinosaurs with plain big ends and flat tappets and fairly big clearances.

Mark. L #848496 05/09/21 8:35 am
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Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
If you are racing then yes the thermal conductivity of the oil might be significant but remember 80% of the heat goes out the exhaust , not through the oil .

What that tells me is the remaining 20% of the heat seems to be able to destroy an engine in minutes unless something cools it. Feel free to design your exhaust-cooled engine and get rich quick.

Generation of heat in the test, in “normal” conditions as well as destructive “scarring” conditions, both being included by the Norton guy, sounds like a test of lubrication, as well as heat conduction.


Quote
If BSA wanted the oil to cool the head then the rocker feed would be 1" diameter not 1/8" .

That’s rather empty rhetoric. If BSA wanted to build better bikes, I suppose they would have!


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Dibnah #848497 05/09/21 8:35 am
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Originally Posted by Dibnah
Lycoming 3400 rpm info from the Lycoming website.

That depends on your Lycoming. ?
The only one I've seen the rpm dial for the maximum continuous RPM is 2700 rpms.
You'd want to keep an eye on the oil temps (and cyl head temps) at those knots too.

The smaller ones may rev a bit harder ?

Mark. L #848515 05/09/21 3:20 pm
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Wasn't the original question to do with oil making the clutch slip? I wonder if anyone has any first hand experience of using a synthetic jaso ma2 oil in a bike where the primary oil is shared with the engine? As John Healy says it should be ok but in Mark's bike it seems not
.

Dave

Last edited by dave jones; 05/09/21 3:22 pm.
Rohan #848516 05/09/21 3:49 pm
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Originally Posted by Rohan
Originally Posted by mondtster
Is it reasonable to say that there have always been problems and how we handle the problems today has changed more than the composition of the oil?

Naaah, synthetic oil* has revolutionized the science of lubrication.
And the additive packages have become sooo specialized.
The engines will now outlast the rest of it.
Trouble is, few of them* suit old bangers. !

Ford was selling little sewing machine engines here that used 0w-0 grade oil.
Thinner than water.
It was soo thin, in really hot weather it wasn't adequate !

Originally Posted by mondtster
Is it reasonable to say that there have always been problems and how we handle the problems today has changed more than the composition of the oil?

Yes, over on the Norkons page folks are discussing mods to the oil pump that prevent oil flowing while its parked in the shed. Thats re-engineering to the ultimate degree. !!
Back in the old days, they just rode them ...
W
And while we are here, Aeroshell 100* has been used on tens of thousands of Lycomings and Contis,
for generations now. Can't be too much wrong with it. (*Before the semi synthetic took over).
Those scar tests are more severe than anything that happens inside an engine ?

Main reason Aeroshell 100 was used in so many aero engines was also partly due to few approved alternatives and advertising, IMHO. Continentals have their camshafts below the crank so benefit from some crank drippings whereas the Lyc's have their cams above...high and dry. When Lycoming decided it would be cheaper to use same diameter lifters rather than the old mushroom headed ones cam and lifter failures sky rocketed, they tried a slightly larger same diameter lifter but it wasn't the final answer. I actually had customers who tried to make TBO by changing out lifters annually since the new style could be changed without splitting the cases...Lycoming's reason for the change in the first place. Then Lycoming came up with an approved oil additive to try and save the cams/lifters...I wonder who made that additive? Don't think I ever knew but would be interesting. Anyway, apples and oranges to me when comparing engine types but when comparing oils the way Jim Comstock did...I have no problem with his method nor results and we are all free to assess them as fits our presumed needs. For an engine such as my older Triumphs with 3 different oil requirements, sump, trans and primary, the RP HPS 20w-50 in the sump would be a good choice for my hopped up and stock engines. Second choice the Mobil 1 v-twin 20w-50 with 1 can of BG MOA would have almost the same results as straight Royal Purple HPS. But then look at that one Bel Ray oil that was super tough...and so it goes. Oil threads huh? Mark R.

Dibnah #848518 05/09/21 4:13 pm
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Originally Posted by Dibnah
Lycoming 3400 rpm info from the Lycoming website.

Low viscosity oil is OK provided that the engine is designed for it. I can't think of a modern car that's sold in the UK that widely suffers catastrophic engine wear, although some cam chains can be a problem approx 150k miles onwards. In the 1960s and 70s, it wasn't unusual for car engines to need a full rebuild after 50 - 60k miles, assuming that the car wasn't scrapped beforehand due to rust.

No direct drive (prop bolted to crank) Lycoming that I know of turned 3400 rpm but a couple of the larger geared engines did...More efficient to turn engine faster while gearing prop down to below super sonic tip speed where it becomes inefficient and very noisy.

The air racers will do whatever is required to make power and win...rpm makes horsepower as does boost and nitrous. Dan Mortensen had good results using Amsoil Aero in the Mortensen Amsoil racer before that oil was pulled off the market, lot of controversy there but I don't remember why or if it was justified. Maybe to small of a market to justify the risk of litigation? In any aircraft accident all the deep pockets are named and sued. Mark R.

dave jones #848531 05/09/21 9:49 pm
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Originally Posted by dave jones
Wasn't the original question to do with oil making the clutch slip? I wonder if anyone has any first hand experience of using a synthetic jaso ma2 oil in a bike where the primary oil is shared with the engine? As John Healy says it should be ok but in Mark's bike it seems not
.

Dave

Hey Dave, your PM box is full

dave jones #848532 05/09/21 10:00 pm
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Originally Posted by dave jones
Wasn't the original question to do with oil making the clutch slip? I wonder if anyone has any first hand experience of using a synthetic jaso ma2 oil in a bike where the primary oil is shared with the engine? As John Healy says it should be ok but in Mark's bike it seems not
.Dave

The initial question didn't actually mention the clutch ...

We then covered that. He said he was going to tighten the clutch springs.
I suggested he may wish to deglaze his plates.
We've not heard back yet.

I've got a Honda trailbike with geared clutch that shares the oil with engine and gearbox.
Not tried synthetic in it, but it runs fine with the recommended mineral oil.
A 10w/40 grade note.

MarksterTT #848534 05/09/21 10:12 pm
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Originally Posted by MarksterTT
but when comparing oils the way Jim Comstock did...I have no problem with his method nor results and we are all free to assess them as fits our presumed needs. For an engine such as my older Triumphs with 3 different oil requirements, sump, trans and primary, the RP HPS 20w-50 in the sump would be a good choice for my hopped up and stock engines. Second choice the Mobil 1 v-twin 20w-50 with 1 can of BG MOA would have almost the same results as straight Royal Purple HPS. But then look at that one Bel Ray oil that was super tough...and so it goes. Oil threads huh? Mark R.


I can't help thinking back to prewar Nortons and racing success's. (which didn't use flat base tappets btw)
Someone (privateer) who won in the IoM GP (TT course) described his method of selecting an oil to win.
He took a small sample of each of the oils available then, put them in little dishes and put them in the oven.
And turned the heat up.
The one that boiled last was the one he used - race bikes then had a bit of a problem with the oil boiling,
and once that happened then the oil pump only pumping oil froth was a recipe for engine failure.

Norton (factory) method was to enlarge the oil tank, until it was large enough the oil didn't boil.
But they could also afford the best racing oil. Which then was a Castor oil - the last fraction out of the distillation. (?)
And warming the oil before adding it to the tank. Wiley old racers trick ...

Mark. L #848538 05/09/21 11:44 pm
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Well, i change the oil and filter on my bikes every 5000 miles whether they need it or not.
Just use old SG crap 20/50.
Seems to be ok for the thrashing i give 'em.

Given the choice , i'd make it compulsory for everyone to use 'R' in all road vehicles as
it would just be such a pleasant aroma everywhere, better than roasting coffee even.

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Mark. L #848539 05/10/21 12:33 am
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Somewhere I tried a spot of leftover Castrol R in a little BriggsundStratton lawnmower.
It smelled wonderful. Although became a little tiresome after a while.
And eventually had to tip out the fuel tank, there was some strange looking gloop starting to appear in there,
didn't seem to want to dissolve in the petrol.

And if you've ever cleaned out an old engine thats been run on it extensively, all the insides were coated
with a strange yellowish sticky coating that was near impossible to remove where it had been baked on ...

I'd agree, just running plain ole 20w/50 goes well in most old bangers. Most older brit bikes don't have wet clutches.
I shy away from GTX though.
And I see the Porsche folks saying it causes piston rings sticking in their grooves.
Now, a Commando I rebuilt had some seriously stuck piston rings in their grooves.
Required new pistons. I used Valvoline ...

Mark. L #848543 05/10/21 1:19 am
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That's the snag with R, the residue.
It doesn't break down products of combustion either.
Used it when racing, great stuff but cleaning .....................ugh.


Your old Briggs:
Probably R didn't want to dissolve in the 'what we call petrol' now.

Some years ago Shell introduced and marketed "New formula shell' petrol in the UK
basically it was a detergent additive in the fuel. That caused massive problems with
certain cars. Valves sticking and all sorts, they withdrew it. The truth of the matter was
that there was nothing wrong with the additive pack but they relied on the tanker drivers
to add the additive with no form of metering. Sometimes it was 1% sometimes it was 10%.........

Mark. L #848546 05/10/21 2:19 am
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Ha !

And if'n you want to read about a total b*allzup, look up introducing diesel fuels with low sulphur content.
Removing it caused problems right around the world - various types of seals no longer sealed.
The fuel companies paid out bigtime to have all that stuff fixed.
What was scary was that it was done country by country, over some years.
Each country seemingly dealt with it like it had never been heard of before, its not like they didn't know what was coming.

An oil disaster here was when Mobil I think it was produced some diesel here that had a high wax content.
Farmers in particular suddenly discovered that the oil in their sumps was turning to jelly - not good for lubrication.
After some serious legal stuff, they paid out for quite a few engine rebuilds.
They treated every case like it had never happened bore, a PR nightmare.

We are diverging from slipping clutches or not a tad though.
But its all chemical formulations that work, or nyet.

Mark. L #848558 05/10/21 8:30 am
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Originally Posted by Rohan
Most older brit bikes don't have wet clutches.

They just have clutches that get wet.


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Mark. L #848560 05/10/21 10:34 am
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Heh heh.

The manual details that the clutch in a Dominator should be run above the oil level in the primary case.
The clutch plates should be dry when you inspect them.
But the tangs and splines and clutch bearing need a trace of oil, or it will not be good.
Go figure ?

Rohan #848561 05/10/21 10:50 am
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Originally Posted by Rohan
Heh heh.

The manual details that the clutch in a Dominator should be run above the oil level in the primary case.
The clutch plates should be dry when you inspect them.
But the tangs and splines and clutch bearing need a trace of oil, or it will not be good.
Go figure ?

Plates should be dry, yes. But they’re not dry, those naughty plates!


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Originally Posted by NickL
Well, i change the oil and filter on my bikes every 5000 miles whether they need it or not.
Just use old SG crap 20/50.
Seems to be ok for the thrashing i give 'em.

Given the choice , i'd make it compulsory for everyone to use 'R' in all road vehicles as
it would just be such a pleasant aroma everywhere, better than roasting coffee even.


Luckily for us, I've been lead to believe that since no 20w-50 is designed for 'energy conserving' reasons and not used in modern catalyst equipped vehicles, that most if not all will still contain some level of phosphorous and zinc.

I don't remember the author but many years ago another motorcycle enthusiast performed his own 'on the road' oil tests by sending samples in for lab testing after various oils had gone a certain number of miles such as 1000, 1500, 2000 etc. The main take away was that in a motorcycle engine with shared engine and transmission, the gearbox caused shearing of the oils molecules and most of the oils tested had lost approximately 1/2 of their viscosities by 1500 miles.


My dad used to put a splash of Castrol 'R' in the spark plug divots of his old flat head Fords just so that he could smell that 'R' at every stop, nowadays, I use a little Blendzall octane booster that contains some Castrol R in my gas...every stop is a delight. I was once chased down by a bicyclist who I had passed on my SR500 with a little of the Blendzall in the tank, he asked "Was that you making that wonderful smell and what is that?" I've never been accused of making a wonderful smell before, just ask my wife. The biker was to young to have been around back in the day when the smell of racing was Castrol R yet he still appreciated the aroma...good stuff!

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The vast majority of modern motorcycle engines use flat tappets, usually an inverted bucket with a shim on top or underneath. Others use a radiussed tappet on a rocker


BSA B31 500 "Stargazer"
Greeves 200 "Blue Meanie"
Greeves 350
Greeves 360
GM500 sprint bike "Deofol"
Rickman Jawa 500 "Llareggub"
Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
'35 & '36 OK Supreme
Kawasaki ZZR1400 "Kuro no senshi"
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