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#847737 05/02/21 2:27 am
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Hi Guys-
Very close to completion fixing my 76 T140V. I put in a new 7 plate clutch. The pull is easy and smooth, but with the engine at idle in 1st, clutch lever pulled in, the clutch is dragging. Tried to adjust it and I can't seem to get it to fully disengage. Any suggestions to separate the plates a little more? Everything else to do with the clutch is stock.
Thanks.


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Hi wind1, A few thoughts. First, did you adjust the wobble to at least reasonably close. Doesn't have to be perfect. How did you adjust the rod?

First thing I think of with drag is rod & lever adjustment.

Here is video from Rabers going over rod adjustemt. #1 mistake I see made in not having enough free play in lever. If.... you have adjuster screw for rod tighten to where the pressure plate is just lifting & don't still have free play in lever, go deeper into trans with the lower cable adjuster until you have some play.

The video they are curing clicking. That is often caused by not enough slack in cable during rod adjustment. The slack can be not enough & cause problems, but not yet click. The lift can be less if you are at end of ball track in cam.



Adjust the rod as above. Personally I'd go 5/8 turn instead of 1/2 out.

Set lever free play to about 1/32" now. See how it frees. Heat soaked motor expands things & play becomes greater with the heat.

Freeing clutch cold it should free very well. Hot should be really, really free. Harder to feel cold, but easy to feel hot. Motor off. Free clutch. Keep lever pulled. Then kick & slowly let out the lever to feel when the plates start to engage.

A few other things. The primary is self leveling. However it takes a good 10-20 miles to get the level stabilized. Too much oil in primary tends to cause drag. If you've ridden it 20+ miles, its close to being correct. Some books say add 350cc. Some other amount, some 150cc. In real life 150cc is correct. A dip stick like dowel or screw driver reached down primary filler hole behind chain to bottom of primary 150cc will show about 1/2" deep.

I'm sure you examined these, but notching in grooves of drum & basket will cause problems.

Excessive wear inside the cush hub on back plate, spider, bores for spider will cause drag & also slip to a degree.

As you know the friction pads are very thin compared to originals. This sounds odd, but often the first friction plate doesn't actually set flat in basket because the back corner of basket is chamfered. The plate sets on chamfer. Its friction pads are not setting tight against back of basket. So plate flexes. Unflexes when releasing lever taking up space. This causes slight slip as well. Cure is chamfer backside of the steel of first friction plate. This happens almost 100% on repro baskets. Original baskets were machined sharper so not so much a problem.

Do you have a Vernier caliper? Use depth gauge through rod adjuster hole. Measure lift putting depth gauge on nut or end of screw. You want about .115-.120" inch or so. What is it? Remember adjustment of rod & lever is already done.

If lift is low that is sign of cable stretching/spongy. That is sign cable will break soon. Worn ball cam, will cause low lift. If perch & levers are all original stock that is good. Replacement lever/perch can give different cable pull distance. More often the repros over pull.

T140 springs were very hard on cables. Oddly the cable will often break the inner strands first so it looks perfect on visual inspection. If all adjustments are perfect & lift measurement is low, first suspect is inner wire of cable is compromised/spongy. Outer cable can get a kink & it gets spongy. Any cable issues you loose effective travel. Looks fine at bar lever, but motion is lost by time it gets to cam.

On occasion the adjuster screw hits the plug in primary cover. Tell tale sign is any marking on the inside of cover. Like a little dip or circle in the flat part. If needed Cut slot end of screw shorter & cut new slot with hack saw. Actually this is very common. You can use thick seal in cover, but cutting the screw it's forever. Use a dab of grease on end of screw. Give yourself some wiggle room. with a little extra clearance.

Loose nut on right end of main shaft allows clutch to float & not allow proper rod adjustment. This is fairly unlikely so a last resort.

You don't say what motor oil you are using. I use wet clutch approved oil. Other have good results with a few automotive oils. Most automotive causes slipping.

I'm curious as to what brand 7 plate you are using. What pressure plate are you using?

Unless you are spring bound which is unlikely, dragging is very rare with 7 plate kits once all adjustments are correct.

One more oddity. You mess around with clutch adjustments. Free clutch, play around with feeling friction point or whatever.... Now your ready to start motor for real & road test. You free clutch, start motor. Put into 1st, it goes with a loud clunk & a [***]. Why?? I don't know. I've experienced this nearly every time with 7 plate. I've worked on a lot of 7 plates, both Hyde & Aerco. All do this. You ride a few blocks, shift gears a few times & clutch is prefect. Next cold start, you free clutch, start motor, it's perfect. Again why?? I just expect it now. Also, as I expect you found, first engagement into gear after new clutch install is big clunk, like something is wrong. It's normal.

Your dragging now is not normal, something is wrong.

Please let us know what you find.
Don


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My 1967 650 with original clutch had a dragging problem caused by the cable nipple at the gearbox end catching on the abutment that screws in the top.of the case. This prevented full lift. I know that they changed the arrangement in later years but it could be something similar.

Dave

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Thanks guys- I put in a new basket and drum as the old one was saw toothed. I'm using 20-50 Castrol motorcycle oil (JASO rated). Pressure plate is stock and I spent a fair bit of time adjusting springs to get rid of all the wobble.I did look at the Rabers video as the clutch was clicking when I bought it. Adjusted it prior to putting cover back on. Bought the 7 plate from Mike at Walridge Motors- no brand on it. Did not get too much "clunk" when I first put it into gear. I will get more into it tomorrow, readjust and check lift, cable, oil level (have not ridden more than 50 ft). Will let you know.
Cheers

Dan


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Did you check the plain steels were dead flat? it only takes a warped plate to cause drag.
If thats OK, did you inspect the cush drive hub?, internal wear can cause slip and drag.


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Hi Wind1, Looking a Walridge catalog, My hunch is it's Aerco 7 plate. A very good product & works very well with standard pressure plate.

Gavin is correct about checking plates for flatness. I always check both used & new plates. I've actually not had a warped new plate yet. I have not had warped used plates either. I probably have 50 used plates. I've sometimes had to go through them when in need of "emergency repairs". Meaning $ for new was not available. However I'm sure warped happens as it's specifically mentioned in shop Manual.

Ok... 50'. I would remove inspection plug. Measure lift. Use a stick & mark it if nothing else. .115" is slightly more than 7/64", .120" is slightly less than 1/8". That will give you a perspective to start with. Why not again readjust rod, lever & remeasure. Just to verify.

Sounds like you know what you are doing & did things right. My strong hunch is the plates need to get the assembly & any extra primary oil off them. Don't make any other repairs until you ride it a good few blocks & do some shifting.

If your lift is much below 7/64 & clutch still drags then look into cable, lever, ball cam.

Hyde states on instruction sheet oil friction pads before install. Visually the friction material looks identical on Aerco. I always install all friction plates well oiled. Until the won't saturate anymore. I put lots of oil on basket & drum as well as steel plates. This will cause drag for first several blocks. Ultimately the plates will get oil soaked anyway. The drum seems to take in oil on it's own while riding & excess flings off. It finds it's own happy medium.

If possible take a real road test at least of a few miles & see what happens.
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Hi Guys- I did not check the steel plates for flatness, assumed they would be as they were new (foolish me). Just did a quick readjustment of the rod and I have a lift of .056". Definitely below the .120" you recommend. I did not apply oil to the plates as I have memories of removing and prying apart the old oil soaked friction plates. Remembering back now, I did not replace the hub, just the basket, but the rubbers seemed in good repair. I still have to check the oil level in there. Maybe I can do a few laps of the neighbourhood to put some miles on it. The cable looks ancient so for the cost that might be my first suspect.
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Its not the rubbers wearing, its the spider and back plate it rubs against, typically there are witness marks on the back plate where the spider rubs, once material is lost here the centre hub is able to tilt under load, however at almost half the lift that Don recommends you may have found the smoking gun, check your cable and do what you can to give it the smoothest curves and straightest lines, I find leading the clutch cable round the RHS of the headstock then under the tank gives the cleanest route.


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Hi Wind, For the cable, get only Barnett. They are the strongest & have very little friction. They are indeed lined. I lube with motor oil.
.
If you are correct at measuring lift at .056 that's not too good. You might even squeak by with .080. Still try to give it a road test.

As Gavin stated, rubber wear is not the concern, it's the relative motion between the little hub & drum. Still give it a road test next if possible.

Try running bar adjuster at absolute zero play & see what lift is after your road test. Too much end play of thrust washer & internal spider wear gives lost motion as well. I know complete cush hub is costly. But if is worn you have no choice.


One way or the other the plates will get oily. You ride bike 100 miles, return, take apart you'll see what I mean. The oil has a way of getting it. That's not a factor for the drag though.


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Hi All-

An update to the dragging problem. Checked the oil level and it was about 1 1/2". Drained the case and had about 500ml or so. Obviously waaayyy too much. I did replace the clutch cable and it didn't change the lift- still max of .060". So..I took the cover off and:
-checked the plates -all flat
-checked the hub- very slight machine edge on the inside, so first friction plate has been chamfered
-I did replace the thrust bearing when the clutch was done although only about .002" difference

So the excess oil problem. Can't see the 3 equalizing drain holes to see if they are plugged. Where are they located? Possible wet sumping? The pump was doing a fine job of sending oil back to the frame when I was running it. Have to remove the points plate and clean and inspect the pump? Just got the bike to fire on the first kick after replacing both points and timing it. Not looking forward to repeating all that.

Again, any info and advice if much appreciated.


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Found the 3 "tiny" holes by the stator. I could push a brad nail through for about 3/4" until it hit something on the other side. I assume that is ok?


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Originally Posted by wind1
Can't see the 3 equalizing drain holes to see if they are plugged. Where are they located?

They aren't drain holes as they are far higher than the normal primary oil level.

Their intended purpose is to direct oil mist from the crankcase onto the primary chain.

https://www.britbike.com/forums/ubb...-primary-oil-how-does-it-work#Post821613


Originally Posted by wind1
Found the 3 "tiny" holes by the stator. I could push a brad nail through for about 3/4" until it hit something on the other side. I assume that is ok?

Yes, that "something" is the crankshaft.

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Thanks L.A.B.- A very interesting read. I'm going to readjust and reassemble with just the 150ml and try to put some wear on things and see what happens.


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Originally Posted by wind1
Thanks L.A.B.- A very interesting read. I'm going to readjust and reassemble with just the 150ml and try to put some wear on things and see what happens.

I fitted the Aerco kit some time ago and it was fine from the beginning although I did have to file the tangs of the additional plain plate quite a bit before it would even fit, and more filing before it would slide without sticking which I think might have prevented the plates from separating if it hadn't been attended to.

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Yes this one was "snug" when it went in. Everything is back together with proper oil level. Going to do a quick valve adjustment while it is cold then try it out.


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Hi wind1, Going in snug is not desirable. I’m assuming you dressed plates as needed to get free fit. You may find basket slightly bell shaped. I’ve seen 2 so far. Inner frictions were snug. Trail fitting in different order didn’t help. So deeper plates were filled as needed. UK made baskets.

However only .060” lift is not enough. You might get by, but barely.

Regarding level in primary idling on side stand will add more oil into fast! Frame can drop 2+” in 16-20 seconds. I did experiments on this a few times. It’s normal. Riding bike 8-10 miles will put oil back in frame.

If... clutch is working properly you’d never know the frame oil dropped. Clutch would still work ok so you’d never even give it a thought.

However if pump is not returning oil properly level in primary will go up. If pump is actually faulty the frame oil will continue to drop as you ride until so much oil is in sump of motor it smokes bad & finally runs oddly.

Draining primary & adding 150cc is good. Measure frame oil level with ruler & record. Road test & see what happens.

Can you post photo of clutch lever?

If possible can you email me a video of you measuring clutch lift.

In the mean time your road test will be telling.
Don


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Hi Wind1, From center of clutch lever pivot screw to center of clutch cable end in lever what is measurement. Mine is 7/8”.
Don


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Hi Don- the clutch cable end /pivot measurement is the same 7/8" as yours. When I take up all the adjustment at the pressure plate I get a little more lift. Couldn't get a video, so have had someone who knows computers much better than I do, post these snaps .There is the image of the caliper in the .050 range, the clamp holding the lever , the .070 range with all slack taken up on the adjuster, and how I took the measurement starting at 0 with the lever clamped. [img][Imgur](https://i.imgur.com/aupqsp4.jpg)[/img]. [Imgur](https://i.imgur.com/ZhLDEw1.jpg). [Imgur](https://i.imgur.com/tj20wxc.jpg). [Imgur](https://i.imgur.com/01Hc6lr.jpg) I used the centre stand and the oil level is still at about 1/2". With all the slack taken up on the pressure plate adjustment I can shift and hold the bike at a stop, although it's almost impossible to get it in neutral with the engine running and I can still feel a little drag. I had the first friction plate go in a little stiff, but it seemed to seat ok. I could see it flat against the back of the basket.There is no smoke at all from the engine and the frame level has not changed so I probably jumped the gun worrying about the oil pump.


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Hi wind1, Good the oil level is maintaining.
I don’t think the snug first plate is effecting your lift.
Looking like you’ve covered your bases.
If you look into trans filler plug just so with flashlight you can see main shaft. The one with kicker gear. Having assistant pump clutch lever watch the gear/shaft for end movement. There should be none.
Pull lever one time & release. Have assistant push adjuster screw very hard to right side attempting to move main shaft to right side of bike. It should not move. Again have assistant pull lever once while you watch. Main shaft should not move. Point here is to make sure main shaft nut has mot backed off allowing main shaft to move causing lost motion.
Friend of mine had your problem. Turns out pivot shaft, hole had wear as well as ball track had wear. This was causing lost motion & low lift. Truth be told it was a guess on cam. All else was good. So an educated guess. New cam had X stamped on it, meaning longer lever. Still it cured problems.
If you can find lever with 1” pivot distance it might compensate?? Looking like you need 1/8-3/16” more cable travel with this cam.
Looking at 2nd photo the lever is against part of grip. I moved my lever perch outwards. This gave more lever movement in my case. But... we have different perches, so experiment with this. The perch can be modified to get more travel. That’s another subject.
Neutral can be harder to find on 5 speed due to the back cutting on dogs. Even slight drag will try to lock gears together. At standstill at red light, blip throttle a bit gently. Rpm will rise & just at the peak as it falls the gears will release the back cut. Get neutral at that moment. Takes practice! Once you get the feel, works every time.
Also when heat soaked stop motor & free clutch. Release lever slowly. You can feel where friction point is. It should fully release & then some. Generally I feel friction while kicking 1/4-1/3 of the way out with lever.
Don


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Originally Posted by wind1
There is the image of the caliper in the .050 range, the clamp holding the lever , the .070 range with all slack taken up on the adjuster, and how I took the measurement starting at 0 with the lever clamped.

With the clutch adjusted normally, I get .107".

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Thanks Don for all the patient and thorough diagnostics. I will have my son over tonight and with give your suggestions a try. Will let you know what happens.
Cheers,
Dan


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HinGuys- Back to work, so had very little time to investigate this. Back to it now. I tried to check the main shaft visually and couldn't see any movement. So...

1) I adjusted the clutch per Rabers method (adjusting screw backed off 1/2 turn), but kept the lock nut backed well off.
2) I pulled the lever a few times
3) I then backed off the adjusting screw 2 full additional turns to total 2 1/2 turns out
4) I tapped the adjusting nut with a 9/16 and extension
5) I then turned the adjusting screw in until it contacted the pushrod, which was 2 turns only. I did this twice to make sure it was consistent.

I lost about 1/2 a turn. Would this be enough indicate main shaft nut being loose, and lose me about .040 in pressure plate lift? I don't want to replace any unnecessary parts or do any unnecessary labour.


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Hi Dan, I know what you are thinking with the rod adjustment. I don't know if that is valid or not. .040" is too much.

The main shaft is located left to right by the ball bearing in inner cover. This bearing is press fit in cover. It has a "redundant" snap ring to contain it. I just measured the clearance on my snap ring to bearing race. .020". My bearing is quite tight fit in inner cover. Bearing has maybe .002-.004" end play or so. I know for certain I cannot feel end play moving shaft by hand. I feel it ever time I have clutch off on many bikes.

I'd put the rod to zero clearance, Pull lever several times. Back off rod some turns as you did & tighten lock nut. Then trial fit primary cover with a few screws. Measure to end of adjuster screw or the lock nut from primary cover. Then tap the nut as you did. Then remeasure. That is the way I've always done it.

Then since cover is on, adjust the rod & clutch lever per video. Then measure lift.

If you don't have vernier calipers you need one. 0-6". Digital makes it easy to read. The cheap ones at Harbor Frieght or ebay are good enough for most uses. About $20.00.

A skinny metal ruler (scale) is not really accurate enough, but better than nothing. Tape measure, not so good.

We'll go from there.
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Hi Don-
.
I did try the zero clearance on the adjuster and was getting only about maximum of close to .070 lift measured with the vernier caliper. I think a dial gauge would be best. Regardless, I'm not getting in the ball park of what you said you get for lift.

Its a nice day here, and I wanted to change the oil and polish the cover anyways, so I have taken off the right side cover to check the nut, and the ball and ramp as well. I still have to read up on how to remove the ramp and ball assembly and check their size. it seems loose when I pull side to side on the clutch lever, although this may be normal.

The interesting thing is that the nut on the main shaft is being held in place by just one tang on the tab washer. I can move the nut with my fingers very slightly back and forth. Is it supposed to be torqued tight? I also have a very slight movement pushing it in and pulling it out as well, although by "feel" it may be only .005.

Dan


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According to the Manual, the clutch operating mechanism (the 3 chrome balls in the spring loaded tray) should have "negligible" wear.

After taking mine apart, one of the balls had no chrome on it whatsoever, was oval, about .80mm smaller than the others, and had worn a large pit beside the pocket where it was supposed to sit. My guess is that when the lever was pulled this ball was not rising within the mechanism, and therefore not pushing the rod out far enough. I will have one next week and will remeasure the lift after installation.


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