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Rohan #848291 05/07/21 1:48 am
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Over twice the price it should be, and Aircraft Spruce isn't the cheapest place to buy oil. I can get it cheaper from my local oil supplier.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/aeroshelloils2.php?clickkey=4526


You sound like a shill for Aeroshell. I've been unimpressed with their oils and even less impressed with the pricing on their oil. Thankfully there are better and cheaper options.

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Mark. L #848300 05/07/21 3:19 am
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For aero engines, what else is there ??????
And old flatheads too, for that matter.

For 1930s motorcycles, they were ahead of most too.
Unless you were glued to Castrol R.

Oils have come a long way since then....
Modern isn't necessarily better though, read the data sheet ?

Last edited by Rohan; 05/07/21 3:20 am.
Rohan #848304 05/07/21 4:02 am
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Originally Posted by Rohan
For aero engines, what else is there ??????

Phillips 66 Aviation provides a better and cheaper product. I'll leave it at that, as we've strayed a long way off the original subject.

There have been a few other piston aircraft oils that are now gone that I wish weren't.

Mark. L #848307 05/07/21 4:46 am
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Do you know, I've not even heard of that stuff.
Shell does have a huge chunk of that market...

Yes, we still need to establish if the OP's Lucas oil has the chemistry to support flat based tappets.
Since 'modern' type engines wouldn't likely have such things, does the oil cater for them ?
Just hoping or assuming isn't a terribly scientific or reliable approach !

This cam follower came out of an old dommie.
I don't know for sure if thats wear or corrosion or bad lube or it was a dud - the others weren't like it.
But they did all show some heavy wear.
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Mark. L #848310 05/07/21 6:35 am
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I’ve used Lucas 20W/50 synthetic in my 650, without any problems, although the clutch does not share the engine oil.

No sign of it destroying the tappets.

If you like reading about oil in old bike engines:
https://www.accessnorton.com/Oil-Tests/NortonOil.php


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Mark. L #848314 05/07/21 7:59 am
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Long term ?
The tappets wouldn't come to any harm without a fair mileage.

Is synthetic the same oil that the OP asked about here ?

Yes I've read that.
After a while, you'd think that walking should be safe enough ... !

And Gerry Bristow here RIP had done a fair old mileage on his Mk 3 Commando.
Ex-Duckhams oil industry chap, swore by his 20w/50 and then Mobil 1

One of the oil merchants here had a special on 'diff' oils.
Taxis used it, of course, being budget minded.
After a while, they noticed the diffs weren't in great condition.
Oops, oils ain't oils. The extreme pressure additive wasn't added ...?
Saved a few pence, it seems. Merchant was long gone by then ...

Mark. L #848315 05/07/21 8:12 am
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I also see that Lucas offer a 'racing oil' with high zinc levels.
Obviously pandering to marketing speak. Or ...

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/8GUAAOSwf~tfUH0u/s-l1600.jpg

mondtster #848320 05/07/21 9:20 am
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Why compare to aircraft engines?

What rev's does a 650 triumph run at? What rev's does a regular aircraft engine run at?

What is the valve spring pressure over the cam nose in each engine?

What is the surface contact area of the followers in each engine?

Comparing apples with meatballs maybe.

Just for the discussion.

Mark. L #848327 05/07/21 10:51 am
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No-one I can see is chiming in with experience of mechanical failures which they know were caused by a shortcoming in their oil.

I’ve done many miles on most types of oil. Nearest things to problems I have seen were:

SAE50 mineral oil that was so thick on a cold morning that it would not flow fast enough from the tank. Oil pressure suddenly dropped as revs rose.

10W/40 mineral oil that burnt and leaked faster than 20W/50.

El Cheapo no-rating 20W/50 oil, used for breaking in, which became very thin and runny by 300 miles. Looked like it was no longer a multigrade.

None of these things caused any visible damage.

That’s in a 650 with E3134 profile nitrided cams.


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Mark. L #848333 05/07/21 12:48 pm
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The very best oil for a British motorcycle engine is whatever you just took out very regularly.
The golden rule with BSA's is
Change the oil
Change the oil again
Then change the oil because you can not remeber if you changed the oil.
We had a member with a bugered timing side bush that would not hold oil pressure lower than 2000 rpm.
He put another 80,000 on that bottom end before he sold the bike still with the same buggered botom end
How did he do it ?
well he changed the oil every time he ran the bike then when he had a couple of gallons of "slightly used oil " he put that in his truck .
Even the cheapest cut back supermarket oil bought now days is better than what was used in the engine when it was new .

In modern times , BSA engines wear more from oil starved starts because the bike has not been run for the last 6 months than they do from using the "wrong" oil.
I mostly run my bike on Lawnmower oil as I get it really cheap so can happily change it after every rally , should enough stay in the engine to require changing.
Have had lots of members that worked for local government, botanical gardens, trucking companies that all use deisel oil cause they could "borrow" it from work for free at lunch time .
Again their bikes did not blow up cause they used the wrong oil .


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Mark. L #848359 05/07/21 10:35 pm
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Nothing wrong with diesel oil. Diesels are low revving and generally have plain bearings and mild cams
In fact its perfect for old bangers. Widely used around here.
But, its best if you start with a cleaned out engine, and have a filter in the system
or all that old goop will be circulating ...

Aircraft engines are big slow revving machines with large clearances.
Plain bearings and mild cams. Remind anyone of anything ?
The last piston rebore I did was to 5 to 6 thou clearance - old single.
Whereas the H*nda I did a while back required 0 thou clearance - anything more and the piston slap was horrid.
Chalk and cheese, chalk and cheese.

I've got a boxful of old dommie cams.
I'd say some of them could have used an oil with more zinc in it. !
(I don't know the history of them).(But the fact they are no longer in bikes says something ?)

And as someone who tried the latest synthetic in their old dinosaur commented
"its comforting to know that its leaving the most expensive puddles in the carpark".

triton thrasher #848360 05/07/21 10:40 pm
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Originally Posted by triton thrasher
El Cheapo no-rating 20W/50 oil, used for breaking in, which became very thin and runny by 300 miles. Looked like it was no longer a multigrade.


Didn't Alan Goldwater (USA NOC club) damage his Commando on a hot day someplace with GTX 20w/50.
And had the oil analysed. Despite having done less than 1000 miles, the oil was described as well past its usefulness.
Burnt even.
Norton (factory) subsequently changed the oil recommendation to 40 wt in the manual.

Oil (quality) is just something you take for granted.
Until it isn't ...

Rohan #848369 05/08/21 12:24 am
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"Aircraft engines are big slow revving machines with large clearances.
Plain bearings and mild cams. Remind anyone of anything ?"

Even a BSA M20 rev's harder than most aero engines by about two times.

There is just no real comparison between aero engines and old British bike engines as far as JASO ratings and the function of ZDDP is concerned.

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Rohan #848380 05/08/21 3:28 am
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Originally Posted by Rohan
I've got a boxful of old dommie cams.
I'd say some of them could have used an oil with more zinc in it. !
(I don't know the history of them).(But the fact they are no longer in bikes says something ?)

And as someone who tried the latest synthetic in their old dinosaur commented
"its comforting to know that its leaving the most expensive puddles in the carpark".
Perhaps that's why the AccessNorton oil tests were so focused on film strength on the cams. Apparently a "stage 3" Norton doesn't include better cams and followers.
I find it odd that they found the conventional VR1 to be acceptable, while failing the synthetic.


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triton thrasher #848384 05/08/21 3:51 am
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Originally Posted by triton thrasher
I’ve used Lucas 20W/50 synthetic in my 650, without any problems, although the clutch does not share the engine oil.

No sign of it destroying the tappets.

If you like reading about oil in old bike engines:
https://www.accessnorton.com/Oil-Tests/NortonOil.php

I kind of wanted to stay out of oil threads but if one is interested in what oils may or may not work in your British bike you should really check out this oil test done by Jim Comstock for his Norton Commando...you can skip the discussion and just check out the test results, graphs and tables. If TT's site doesn't give you both, then just search best norton oil and you'll get it.

Jim's testing was somewhat of an eye opener in regards to some oil brands, the almost immediate failure of straight Aeroshell 100 was a surprise and probably partly explains why I saw so many wasted cams and lifters in Lycoming aircraft engines. But then his tests of the Aeroshell Sport plus synthetic for the 4 cylinder Rotax was just the opposite and recommended. What was also very interesting was the use of additives such as BG MOA...some oils it really helped such as Mobil 1 v-twin 20w-50, greatly increasing the oils load carrying capability and reducing the oils frictional and load heat. Seems to have made a good oil a great oil but in other cases, the same additive reduced a good oils numbers by a very marked degree. He tried a couple other additives as 'well.

What I learned from Jim's testing and additives was that by just blindly adding an additive to any oil could just as easily hurt or help the oils qualities. Without testing you'd never know.

I won't spoil Jim's personal choice for his Norton but when you read his tests you'll have a good idea how most available oils, some M/C some not, some for wet clutches and some not, stack up to each other. It did change my mind. Mark R.

Mark. L #848385 05/08/21 4:22 am
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The perpetual problem with all oil testing in use is,,,,,,
Oil formulations change on a daily basis so what was bees knees last year is just marginal this year & unsuitable next year .
At one time Mobil ! was bees knees and now it is on the bad list.
Also times change
We no longer ride our bikes to & from work then out & about in the evening which always included some sort of race, wheelies or other such silly things we used to do.
On top of that radical high lift cams and compression ratios just short of diesel engines are long long gone .( Mr Parker excluded )
Oils designed for recreational engines or occasional use engines will be better suited than any oil for a quad cam over square engine that red lines at 20,000 rpm and idles at 5,000 with a high volume high pressure oil pump feeding 100 oil jets carefully sized to inject the exact right amount of oil to each journal .

And again, the time the oil is in the bike is far more important that what oil was used in the first place.


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MarksterTT #848392 05/08/21 9:04 am
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Originally Posted by MarksterTT
Originally Posted by triton thrasher
I’ve used Lucas 20W/50 synthetic in my 650, without any problems, although the clutch does not share the engine oil.

No sign of it destroying the tappets.

If you like reading about oil in old bike engines:
https://www.accessnorton.com/Oil-Tests/NortonOil.php

I kind of wanted to stay out of oil threads but if one is interested in what oils may or may not work in your British bike you should really check out this oil test done by Jim Comstock for his Norton Commando...you can skip the discussion and just check out the test results, graphs and tables. If TT's site doesn't give you both, then just search best norton oil and you'll get it.


After reading the Accessnorton article, I switched to the type highest up his scale, that I could conveniently order in the U.K.

That’s Royal Purple HPS 20W/50 fully synthetic. Someone would be bound to ask, If I didn’t say!


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BSA_WM20 #848393 05/08/21 9:15 am
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Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
The perpetual problem with all oil testing in use is,,,,,,
Oil formulations change on a daily basis so what was bees knees last year is just marginal this year & unsuitable next year .
At one time Mobil ! was bees knees and now it is on the bad list.
Also times change
We no longer ride our bikes to & from work then out & about in the evening which always included some sort of race, wheelies or other such silly things we used to do.
On top of that radical high lift cams and compression ratios just short of diesel engines are long long gone .( Mr Parker excluded )
Oils designed for recreational engines or occasional use engines will be better suited than any oil for a quad cam over square engine that red lines at 20,000 rpm and idles at 5,000 with a high volume high pressure oil pump feeding 100 oil jets carefully sized to inject the exact right amount of oil to each journal .

And again, the time the oil is in the bike is far more important that what oil was used in the first place.
Now this statement makes more sense than oil scar tests for real life applications...


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Mark. L #848403 05/08/21 1:40 pm
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Aero engine max rpm: I previously looked at using Avgas in a Brit single; piston speed and flame front speed being key factors. Most Lycomings aero engines rev up to about 3500rpm at take off. Most petrol aero engines drive the prop directly, which means that the speed of the prop tip restricts engine rpm.

The " Best Oils For the Norton Commando " webpage refers to a straight 60 oil; I'm surprised that would flow effectively through the bearings from cold.

Would a modern diesel engine oil safely clean the sludge trap on a Triumph?

Mark. L #848411 05/08/21 2:53 pm
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No.
Look at an oil flow cut away.


Motorcycle Oil Flow Diagrams
http://www.motobrit.com/motc2/mpages/tech/tech-oil.php


It looks to be settled to use what you have on a clean, broken in engine.
Unknowns , including breaking up crap in the trap, allow bad stuff to go into bearing surfaces to their premature demise.

I have only blown apart 2 lycomings in my A+P school days, and the Hobbs meter and service book tells the absolute service tale to the operator.
The thing that impressed me was the case mating surfaces were oil tight with grease and a cotton thread "gasket".
The lycomings also had a toggled oil pump that circulated oil before starting, never starting a dry engine.

Just food for thought.

Last edited by Chip H; 05/08/21 5:02 pm. Reason: Link + bloviating.
BSA_WM20 #848413 05/08/21 3:04 pm
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Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
The perpetual problem with all oil testing in use is,,,,,,
Oil formulations change on a daily basis so what was bees knees last year is just marginal this year & unsuitable next year .
At one time Mobil ! was bees knees and now it is on the bad list.
Also times change
We no longer ride our bikes to & from work then out & about in the evening which always included some sort of race, wheelies or other such silly things we used to do.
On top of that radical high lift cams and compression ratios just short of diesel engines are long long gone .( Mr Parker excluded )
Oils designed for recreational engines or occasional use engines will be better suited than any oil for a quad cam over square engine that red lines at 20,000 rpm and idles at 5,000 with a high volume high pressure oil pump feeding 100 oil jets carefully sized to inject the exact right amount of oil to each journal .

And again, the time the oil is in the bike is far more important that what oil was used in the first place.


Yes and no, if you looked at J.C.'s tests, you'll see that some of the oils created a lot of heat and some had very low load carrying capability from brand new and weren't even recommended for a pedestrian low comp. Commando. Engines such as T140's tend to be susceptible to detonation so an oil that runs much hotter than another may be a poor choice for this engine in a hot climate or on high speed cruise. J.C. does comment on the oils he tested and does recommend some that may be to hot running for an air cooled engine but fine in OHC water cooled etc.

Dibnah #848414 05/08/21 3:06 pm
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Originally Posted by Dibnah
The " Best Oils For the Norton Commando " webpage refers to a straight 60 oil; I'm surprised that would flow effectively through the bearings from cold.

Some places are not cold.

Quote
Would a modern diesel engine oil safely clean the sludge trap on a Triumph?

Baffling question.


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Dibnah #848417 05/08/21 3:17 pm
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Originally Posted by Dibnah
Aero engine max rpm: I previously looked at using Avgas in a Brit single; piston speed and flame front speed being key factors. Most Lycomings aero engines rev up to about 3500rpm at take off. Most petrol aero engines drive the prop directly, which means that the speed of the prop tip restricts engine rpm.

The " Best Oils For the Norton Commando " webpage refers to a straight 60 oil; I'm surprised that would flow effectively through the bearings from cold.

Would a modern diesel engine oil safely clean the sludge trap on a Triumph?

Typo? Direct drive lycomings max rpm for most 2,750, a lot of homebuilders will turn them 3,000 rpm with fixed pitch prop to get a little more rpm/hp for take off/climb. Like running a bike with a one speed transmission...all compromise.

Mixture of 100LL with pump hi test is my go to break-in fuel, a little lead on the valves and a greater detonation margin doesn't hurt...my opinion of course.

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MarksterTT #848422 05/08/21 4:16 pm
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Originally Posted by MarksterTT
Typo? Direct drive lycomings max rpm for most 2,750, a lot of homebuilders will turn them 3,000 rpm with fixed pitch prop to get a little more rpm/hp for take off/climb. Like running a bike with a one speed transmission...all compromise.

I don't know what current trends are, but back when my friend was racing the formula one planes were turning 4,000 rpm or maybe a little over. All the temps would be in the red during a race yet the engines lived. Obviously we're not discussing standard airplanes or engines here but may be worth noting, especially when folks are trying to suggest it is an apples to oranges comparison between old British bikes and airplane engines.

Funny how we're now discussing aviation fuel and whether it is good or not. Most of my motorcycle rebuilds are done in my hangar so it is likely that they'll see some 100LL at first startup. Like you, I like a little extra knock protection but beyond that 100LL just makes a mess out of engines so I don't run it long. One thing is certain, car and bike guys all think it is a magic elixir and the airplane guys all look for ways to run car gas...

Dibnah #848424 05/08/21 4:39 pm
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Originally Posted by Dibnah
Would a modern diesel engine oil safely clean the sludge trap on a Triumph?

Safely? No. Would I expect that any modern detergent type oil would have a cleansing action and potentially cause trouble? Yes.

Since this is an oil thread, perhaps we should discuss why the sludge trap exists. When these engines were designed, non-detergent oils were standard fare, which meant that contaminates would not remain in suspension in the oil. The solution was to create a sludge trap that would essentially centrifuge out the contaminates. You'd just need to clean it occasionally, which is what people still do. I would be very wary of running a detergent or dispersant oil in an engine with unknown history or one that had run mineral oil for a long time. You could be asking for trouble.

So how does this fit with oil? Back to my previous statements regarding zinc or lack thereof in certain oils. My belief that while it certainly helps, it is just one (cheap) way of getting the job done. These British bike engines were designed in an era when mineral oil was common, which wouldn't have had zinc. How many failures do we read/hear about from 50 or 60 years ago? Seems everyone just complains about modern oils and how bad they are and how we need something special or else these engines won't survive. What is the actual failure rate then and now? Would we even be able to prove any of that with the various oils and operation/maintenance practices that everyone employs? I think you'd end up with more questions than answers.

Does anyone know what the British motorcycle manufacturers were using for oil in the brand new bikes they were building/delivering in the 1960s and 1970s? That might give some hints on what the manufacturer thought was necessary both for run in and as a minimum standard.

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