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Hi, This brings up question. How much level change is noticeable?

3mm, 10mm?? I have no idea.

The air shock cylinder on my bicycle is pretty small. 10# can be felt. 160# is what I use. Fox brand. I know shock is under great leverage.

There’s a lot of air volume in the fork. So how much oil difference does it take to make a noticeable difference? Do we split hairs?
Don


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How you measure oil volume is an interesting topic. I’d say, depends on what you’re trying to accomplish. Great precision? Abiding by the manufacturer specs? Affecting the way the forks behave deep in the travel, and especially, bottom? I raced for 50 years so I always was worried about the latter, so I always measure oil height, not volume, with a tool that measures and adjusts mm of oil height. And interestingly the 190 cc manufacturer spec for the T140 is not terribly different from the 140mm height I used in the T140–which is like 215 cc.

How much difference in oil height is noticeable? Surprisingly little. For a street bike with reasonably adequate spring rate intended to be ridden on energetically in the twisties you might want to start within the normal range of 5 to 6 inches oil height, 125mm to 150mm. A change of 6mm or 1/4 inch to 10mm or 3/8 or so is very noticeable deep in the travel on a race track where everything is repeatable, street riding less so because the environment is so much more variable. As to effects of relative volumes, less oil—6 inches, say — lets the fork travel farther with a more linear feel, while 5 inches will resist bottoming more and hold the fork up in the travel a bit, while giving a less linear feel.

On the other hand, a bike that is ridden moderately this sort of stuff makes little or no difference.

Glad to hear you got your second vaccination—we just got our seconds this week. Phew.

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.There is no way to trust in the types of tyres that most old bikes use. The better ones are not available everywhere; but there is no comparison with the rubbers used in modern sports bikes; however, the most important difference is the handling and there is no way that one of these old swing arms and forks can hold a curve like a modern equipment can do so that tiny amount that you are referring could work but by no way you can rely on that to make a hot curve at more than 100 or 120 km/h with transit bad black top at a 50º tilt action or more if you are not a race pilot.

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A fork brace would probably improve the front end on my OIF TR6

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Hi Reverb, I agree these forks may never work good like modern forks.

However a $100 of seals & fork oil, careful assembly, will make them work a lot better than from factory.

I’ve observed this many times now.

I followed you fork thread. It may not be be possible to make these forks work like you want them too. Street viewing your roads on google maps & riding your speeds on my roads that replicate yours. My bike/forks cannot go that fast. Certainly not with me riding it. I don’t have modern bike to compare. I’ve briefly ridden modern Bonnie. I don’t think modern Bonnie can do it either, even though better than my bike by a fair amount.
Don


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Phil Pick made a cartridge that improved the standard fork! Problem Phil has drop out of the motorcycle scene. You might try Richard Pecket (P&M), as Phil and Richard worked closely together.

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Hi TR7RVMan;
my response was regarding the 10-20cc amount referred. As you may know, I did all the changes in the 79 bike and I did not see any difference at all. may be I need to buy progressive suspension springs?
Regarding the road here, do not know what road you clicked, but the roads here are good mostly. Similar to what you have there.May be you clicked on some kind of non asphalt road that are mainly in the countryside secondary "roads".
Few years ago I was as a pillion on a sport Yamaha 1000 at around 225km/h! the bike did not move...the curves at 180km/h!
These old bikes sway in the curves in comparison.

-----Mr. Healy: I accept the edited comment however I do not see an edition in the other comment. Thanks

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i have done what i can to improve my 71 OIF front end.
Fitted gaiters to stop the seals wearing out.
Shortened the stroke by 50 mm,
Fitted a later mudguard arrangement which braces the legs.
Fitted kommandos improved dampers, comp RHS, rebound LHS.
Used a lighter spring rate.

other stuff that helps.
Lower handle bars. keeps the weight forward
breadbin fuel tank. keeps the COG down.
Alloy rims. Improves Sprung to unsprung ratio.
Balanced the rear wheel and the front. Before I balanced the rear wheel the bike would sway over corner bumps at higher speeds.
My thoughts.
The standard T140 with high bars, steel rims and a peanut tank carries its fuel load relatively high moving the COG up compared to the breadbin which keeps its weight low in the pannier sides. it has steel rims which do not help the sprung to unsprung suspension ratio.
Even before I modded the forks my bike with big tank , lower bars and ally rims was better handling than my friends T140.

Shortening the forks effectively stiffens the stanchions putting more leg in the tube.

The stock forks are over long, over sprung and poorly damped.
With shorter better damped and softer springs my front end feels a lot better, no issues with the damping duties split between legs.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
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Hi All, Here's a follow up on the forks I just went through. Did 100 mile road test today over my long test route & then some.

Recap. '73 T140. Installed LP Williams phenolic damper rings, genuine Leak proof fork seals, USA version bike so used ,
emgo brand dust wipers. BelRay 5w oil. Has progressive springs of unknown brand, about 3/8" shorter than factory springs. Has Avon Road rider tires. Steel rims.

This is first set I did with progressive springs. The fork responded to damper rings, seals, 5w as expected. Very good.

The spring has a very different feel. Basically the tight coils get used up mainly in sag. The coarse wound coils are stiffer than stock spring. Over all result is the fork follows road quite well. Damping feels good. The stiffer spring reduces dive during braking, but overall has much stiffer/harsher ride than stock springs. For me the fine winding feels too soft, the coarse winding feels too stiff. I'm 160# ready to ride. For rider in the neighborhood of 220# I expect spring would be just right. Has Hagon rear shocks progressive spring. Set to soft spring is too stiff for me. Damping to firm. But again 220# would be good.

This suspension set up, Road rider tires, this is the best handling Triumph I've ever ridden. Not the most comfortable, but it made even me corner better.

So end of day the $100 for parts & oil proved a good value.
Don


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Don, I find the Hagon rears can be vastly improved upon. I’m probably closer to 200lb fully kitted out and find the hagons too harsh on the rear. I’ve just fitted some dial a ride Ikon’s to the oif so waiting to see what these are like, the write ups are very good. (Had them supplied in bare steel with chrome springs so I could paint them like original - dove grey in my case) I have NJB Ultimate shocks on my pre oif A65, they are like night and day compared. Sadly the NJB isn’t available short enough for any oif model.

Shocks work like a team, got one end which is bad and the ride will be crap


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

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Thanks TR7RV man, you convinced me on the Progressive Suspension springs. I’ve never been a huge fan of progressive wound springs, and in fact I think I might have a set under the bench to fit an RD 350 Yamaha, which I understand is the same as the T140. Anyway, I went to buy a set of the originals from Progressive Suspension and they are showing they are back ordered until March 19. https://www.progressivesuspension.com/product/1465/fork-spring-kit That’s ok, since the snow won’t melt til late April, so I’ll try to get a pair of them installed.

Reverb, you’d be surprised at how fast a vintage bike is mid corner on a race track, certainly comparable to modern bikes, for instance at Willow Springs well-ridden Brit bikes are in the mid 1:30s (about 10 seconds off a well ridden modern 600) at a track consisting entirely of vey high speed corners and long, long straights. On track days where the variable is mostly talent you see well ridden vintage bikes passing modern bikes all the time. The big difference seems to be power/acceleration not so much cornering speed. Heck, Mike Hailwood went around Willow in the early 60’s on a Manx in the mid 1:30s when it was little more than a goat trail, and if you had seen that track back then you’d have been impressed. We all ride moderately on the street well within our comfort zones but the actual limits on these older bikes is surprisingly far out there. I’m sorry, don’t mean to ramble here, but I rode a big dirt race at Hopetown in LA in 1972-74 on an up to date CZ and one of the fastest bikes in the open class was—I know it’s hard to believe—a Harley 74 ridden by a truly talented guy, keeping up with the 225 lb Husky and CZ and Maico 400s. This guy rode a lot of TT flat track and it was interesting to see him pounding it out on a motocross style track. My dad raced Harleys in the desert and enduros in the 40s and Brit bikes in the 50s and I always figured — until that day— that those guys went slow on those old heavy bikes. Not true, fast guys always find a way to open the throttle. Motorcycle race speed is very much a function of talent and courage and old bikes definitely can go fast. But LOL, slow guys like me need to improve the suspension!

Thanks John, I haven’t been in touch with Richard Pecket in several years and I’ll try him. Didn’t know Phil Pick made a cartridge insert, I’ll ask about that. The CBR 600 F3 cartridge assembly won’t fit, the 34.5 mm fork tube on the T140 is too small in i.d. for that to work and I’d have to custom build something.

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I agree with Alan on the Hagon shocks.I'm about 170 pounds and the Hagons don't seem to have the best dampening. Not bad but adjustable dampening may help.
Generally speaking when you sit on the bike the suspension should compress about 3/4 inch or so .


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons.."I don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
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I'm no suspension expert and can't comment very much on what the more knowledgeable individuals on here have laid out.
There are however a couple of areas that I find needs to be addressed to make for a nice ride. I noticed that my 71 Bonnie got much better after a considerable mileage, at least as regards response to small bumps and ripples. I used gaiters on it which kept the seals dust free and low friction. Mileage polished the stanchions to a high shine, which must have helped against static friction. The damper O-rings became glass hard as I found out later, and though that may have defeated their purpose somewhat, the loss of friction must have helped responsiveness.
Straight fork legs and clamps is a must as everybody understands, yet so many bikes that comes through my doors are badly compromised in that respect without the owner acknowledging that there's even an issue. Many people will force their fender stays on with a total disregard for binding problems.
On my Trident I arrived at a set of mods that works really well. Firstly I polished the sliding surfaces as well as I have the equipment to do. That is my lathe and 1200 grit emery paper and oil, followed by steel wool and polishing compound. It improved on the surface quite a bit, to the eye and to the touch. Next was a phenolic seal on the dampeners, but it didn't really make a lot of difference, I still had too much stiction. I had Richard Darby modify my damper assemblies which made a great improvement to handling, no bucking or yawing anymore. Didn't improve on the small bump response though, so I finally tossed away the "Leakproofs" and installed Ariete brand seals. That did the trick. My final tweak so far was to use a T120/140 spring in one leg, which gave me a softer ride.
I'm really pleased with my forks now, and as was commented on by Gill, the suspension works as a team. My Hagon rear shocks that had seemed stiff and unresponsive before, now feels just right.
A 50 year old set of rather spindly and unbraced forks (71/72) can't be asked to compete with a modern design, but for what it is, it works amazingly well.

SR

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Hi All, A follow up to the follow up.... Did 60 mile road test today on most of the suspension test route.

Side by side '73 Tiger & '73 Bonnie I did fork work on. Owner of Bonnie is 220#. Belrey 5w oil. Leak Proof seals, phenolic damper rings, progressive wound springs. Owner just loved it. Much more comfortable & more stable on fast curves smooth or bumpy. Unlike me he can ride really fast. Roadrider tires. So in this case anyway the 5w proved very good for 220# rider.

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Hi Stein, Interesting on your leak proof seals. I've never tried Ariete seals.

The left fork leg was dented & binding so had to replace. Getting "good used" proved not good used. However it had leakproof type seal that was not the same seal I'd been using from genuine Leak Proof company in USA. It was very hard & had no markings, but size & shape were same.

Do you have photo of top of leak proof you removed?

I'll pm you my email. If you give me yours I'll send photo
Don


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Don, I can't say if mine where the genuine article or not, but they didn't leak...

Will check my PM.

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I'm sitting on the sidelines, still waiting for Leakproof seals, and a set of Progressive Suspension fork Springs from the Bonneville Shop. The delay is not their fault, in either case, the tracking says my springs have sat in USPS Denver for 5 days....

I am interested in the Ariete seals, I wonder, where does one find them in the US?

Incidentally, I emailed the folks at Leakproof Seals, concerning my buying the thick OEM seal retainer rings, and wondering if I should use those rings, or the ones that come in the package. His response is as follows--either one works, and the seal needs .020 clearance: "Either washer is ok. We supply a washer to properly retain the seal or you can use the ones you purchased. Remember we need about .015 to .020 “float” space between washer and top of seal when installed. Or 1/2 MM. this allows seal to move while being pressurized and still allow forks to work properly. In the ‘70’s our seal was the OEM replacement for your triumph. The design has never changed."

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I feel the need to qualify my inferred criticism of the Leakproof brand fork seals. I rode them for some 6000 miles and they never leaked. On occasion, after some spirited riding on rough roads, they would leave the thinnest of oil films on the stanchions, which I consider a good thing. But however hard I provoked them they never leaked as such, and I believe they would have continued to perform well almost indefinitely.
I usually prefer gaiters on my bikes, even on my 900 Daytona, almost any type of seal will last, but as my Trident is such an original looking bike I chose not to fit them. Standard seals didn't last a season, but to repeat myself, the Leakproofs were just that.

But, whether due to my fitting skills (I don't really believe that) or anything else, I felt the Leakproof seals to offer too much static friction, or stiction as some call it, which wouldn't allow the forks to respond to small bumps, undulations and ripples in the road. As I have explained to Don off-line I'm very particular about these things, and riding modern bikes have spoiled me I guess. Anyway, I found that for me and my expectations, the Ariete brand seals suits me well as they're simply slippier and provides a very nice ride indeed. I don't know much about their longevity yet, they've only been in service for a couple of thousand miles.

Many of you will no doubt have a different experience with Leakproof seals, and they do work really well in keeping the oil in, at the cost of some friction.
Remember, this is my opinion only, I can't serve up any facts at all, so take it for what it is.

SR

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Okay, finally, finally! got all the parts in the mail so I can implement all the help I got through this thread. Unfortunately, I paid for 3 day air, but I got slow 20 days delivery instead--don't you just love USPS?

Anyway, now I have progressive springs (Small P progressive, some no-name springs, NOT the Progressive Suspension progressive springs I thought I was ordering, unfortunately), and I have the Leak Proof name brand seals in their deluxe Pro-Moly low stiction version, and I poured in 190cc of 5 weight oil per TR7RVMan's recommendation, and I put it together with the same attention to detail again--I put it together and tightened the damper rod allens with each fork leg compressed to center them, and with all the pinch bolts loosened on stem, axle, and triple trees, thumped all the joints with a dead blow hammer to help it lose any distortion, put springs and caps in and tightened the left axle clamp, and since this is a T140 D, also tightened the left axle nut, and then bounced it up and down on the brake, then tightened everything else from the bottom up, then installed the fender, which is still at under 1/16 clearance from the slider lugs without distortion. All put together, sitting in the garage bouncing it up and down, it seems much improved on the stiction front--the Leakproof seals, 5 weight fork oil and stiffer springs all have made a big difference.

Two big noticeable changes: (1) the new progressive springs are much stiffer than the sacked out stock springs, and give a lot more ride height, about 1-1/4 inch or 1-1/2 inch sag with the 3/4 inch preload I got with no preload spacers--just from the spring length. The old springs were unacceptably soft. I measured their dimensions, and calculated their rate on this spring rate computer https://www.thespringstore.com/spring-calculator.html (remember to subtract a coil at either end from the count for the inactive end coil, and for the spring material you can use oil tempered or chrome silicon, it doesn't make much difference). The old sacked out springs calculated out to be well under 30 inch /lbs, which is way, way too soft. Too soft and too much sag will bottom, making too soft into too hard in practice. Now I get the full fork travel it was designed to give and I expect the ride to improve a lot. One thing--the new progressive springs have a pronounced step from the soft to the hard rates at about 2-3 inches of compression, and I am not sure I am going to like that. I rummaged around under the work bench and came up with a set of 19-3/4 inch long, 1 inch in diameter, straight rate 40 inch pound (.7) springs off an FZR600, that I may try next--they are exactly the right length and rate I would guess would be perfect for a 400 lb or so street bike. (2) The fork is very free feeling, so free I am wondering if the 5 weight fork oil and 190cc will give enough compression damping and bottoming resistance, and rebound damping, but I will have to ride it a bit to figure that out.

Anyway, thanks everyone who offered advice! I will report back when I have a chance to ride it, in late April after the snow melts in Alaska. Thanks again folks for all the comments and advice, I am eager to ride it again.

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Hi linker48x, One of the things I didn't like about the progressive springs was feeling the transition from close to normal wind. My personal preference is a pretty even compression.

I find it very hard to evaluate fork in garage or lower speed to real life on the road. Road testing in real riding is the only way.

Every time I messed with fork tuning in garage or street in front of my house it didn't work out. In real riding, was too stiff & damping way too slow. But that's just me.

You may find my preference too soft & damping too fast for your tastes. I find the fork very sensitive to oil weight.

Looking forward to hearing your real riding report. I'm sure it will help many others.

The way global warmings going, you could be on road any day now....???
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I have the Ariete seals and let an oil film on the forks if the streets are bumpy.
May be TR7RVMan; remember that more than a year ago we discussed in a thread here these changes. I did these simple changes and I did not obtained any perceptible benefit.
Might be a combination with the swing arm and balanced wheels a better solution.

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We have had a cold late Spring and I have only ridden once so far and it was cold enough—mid 40’s— that it probably affected the ride negatively. The forks still seemed a bit harsh, like I hadn’t solved the stiction problem but the effect of the temp is probably involved. The small p progressive springs hold the bike up in its travel nicely, but seem to have a noticeable transition which may have an effect too.

Also, something I didn’t mention before—these fork tubes were aftermarket repops. I measured them with a micrometer and they were about .002 larger in diameter than stock. Also, instead of having the section of reduced diameter at the bottom like the stock tubes, they are all the same diameter top to bottom. Those two things—the increased diameter and the lack of a length of reduced diameter at the bottom, probably are also contributing to my stiction issues.

Anyway, I’ll report back again when the temps increase a bit towards the high 50s or low 60s. In the meantime, thanks again for all your inputs, guys.

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Tried it again on a warmer day, low 50's, made quite a difference and the forks are much improved. Not so sure about oil level and ultimately what fork springs and oil weight I will end up with, or whether I will change the fork legs for some Made In UK legs, put some sort of cartridge inside these, or mess with the damping orifices, or I will leave well enough alone, but as they are, they work much better than they worked before simply by changing to the Leakprooof brand seals, small p progressive fork springs, and 5 weight oil. Thanks for the help, guys.

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Oh yeah, and the LP Williams piston ring replacements for the o-rings.

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