Classic British SparesKlempf British PartsBaxter CycleBritBike Sponsor SteadfastCyclesSRM EngineeringLucas Classic MotorcycleHepolite PistonsIndustrial tec supply

Upgrade your membership to: Premium Membership | Gold Membership | Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Welcome to BritBike Forum!
Britbike forum logo
Member Spotlight
Kenny
Kenny
Oklahoma
Posts: 33
Joined: July 2003
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 631
Likes: 3
T
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 631
Likes: 3
I have just filled the crankcase on my 1970 650 engine. I noticed a slight trickle of oil from the lower RH case stud (near the blanking plug). I have removed the nut and put silicon in, that didn't work so I used a copper washer. Today still a trace of oil. Am I missing something? I have looked for a crack but can't see one.


1968 T150/TR6R
1970 TR6C
Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!

Check out British motorcycles for sale: British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 209
Likes: 17
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 209
Likes: 17
You have filled the crankcase with oil - why? Anyway, the area of metal around the screw hole on both the crankcase and timing cover should have had sealant on them (Hylomar or Loctite 518?) that should stop oil getting to the screw. If the mating surfaces are slightly damaged, it is possible to use a gasket on the timing cover, they weren't fitted as standard, but they are available. As a bodge, putting a copper washer under the screw (with a bit of sealant) should work, but it must be annealed first, as copper age hardens.
HTH.

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 631
Likes: 3
T
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 631
Likes: 3
This isn't the timing cover its the lower crankcase securing stud that holds the two halves together. Oil is in there as an initial fill to prime the scavenge line


1968 T150/TR6R
1970 TR6C
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 209
Likes: 17
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 209
Likes: 17
Ah, right, I understand. I guess the same applies as far as the mating surfaces, but I guess you're not about to pull the engine apart to sort that! As well as a copper washer (annealed), you can still get oil "wicking" along the stud threads. Give the stud threads and nut a good de-greasing before using sealant on the stud (and the washer). Hopefully that will do the trick.

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 631
Likes: 3
T
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 631
Likes: 3
I just cleaned everything off and it looks as if the oil MAY be coming from the OPRV. I had put a new fibre washer on it but will wait overnight to see what happens. Another option could be the crankcase drain plug but this is lower that the stud so i don't think so. New oil is hard to trace back.....


1968 T150/TR6R
1970 TR6C
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 759
Likes: 3
B
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
B
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 759
Likes: 3
Google oil leak and talcum powder ;-)


3D TV: A format that lost a format war without even having an opponent.
Bikes: '69 T120 on average (1967 rolling frame and 1971 Bonnie engine) + '56 1/2 T110 on average (58 rolling frame - with 55 iron head engine) + 74 T150 Home model.
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 65
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 65
Hi Tiger_cub. The case stud holes are pretty close to the center joint. I always put a little extra bit of sealant there. I've seen the stud/bore fill with oil & leak a. few times. I take stud out & clean bore, stud threads, washers, nuts, very clean & get bone dry. Coat threads of stud, washers, nuts with Loctite 510 or 574.
Let cure 24 hrs. This works really well on cyl base studs that leak after assembly as well. Clean stud, nut, washer if used. Apply thick coat sealant. Cure 24 hrs.

Either of these works well for the plastic seals on PRV as well. I'd prefer copper seals here, but hard to come by that's thin similar to plastic. Loctite 518 will work also, but not quite as durable.

Loctite 510, 574 is similar. Dries to a hard plastic. Very hard to sperate if used on case halves, but these can take crank case pressures of even the most worn motor. Where pressure will displace Hylomar, this loctite will hold very tight. I've seen it hold high pressures for 20 years, still bone dry.

510 dries to a firm crust, but can be separated without a fight. Probably seals better than Hylomar on cyl halves.

At work we found silicon was not the best for leaking studs, nuts, bolt heads. Loctite 510 or 574 is the sealant of choice for that.

Baby power really works good on clean cases with new oil. I agree new oil is nearly invisible. In the worst case the leak test dye with the special flash light works really well. I hate to use it, but it will show cracks & porous castings etc, like nothing else can. Tip: it can show up really quickly, then spread like oil does. So it takes some careful observation or all you see is dye.

Very well could be pressure relief valve. Sometimes both...
Don

Last edited by TR7RVMan; 04/30/21 7:33 am. Reason: changed sentence

1973 Tiger 750
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,367
Likes: 38
D
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
D
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,367
Likes: 38
You have to fill the crankcase with oil after a rebuild to prime the scavenge oil line? Something learnt for future use, thanks.

Does this also apply if you change the oil pump?

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,650
Likes: 77
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,650
Likes: 77
Originally Posted by Dibnah
You have to fill the crankcase with oil after a rebuild to prime the scavenge oil line? Something learnt for future use, thanks.

Does this also apply if you change the oil pump?

You don’t have to do that at all.

It could be argued that a cupful of oil in the crankcase gets some oil to the rockers a bit sooner, but it really doesn’t matter.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 631
Likes: 3
T
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 631
Likes: 3
I would also say that it helps with splash onto the pistons and rod bearings straight from start up. Why would it be detrimental?


1968 T150/TR6R
1970 TR6C
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,650
Likes: 77
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,650
Likes: 77
Originally Posted by tiger_cub
I would also say that it helps with splash onto the pistons and rod bearings straight from start up. Why would it be detrimental?

Are you asking me? I didn’t say it was detrimental.

What I said was you don’t have to fill the crankcase with oil. And that’s correct: you don’t.
There’s always some oil in the bottom of a new-built engine. I’m sure we all oil the rocker gear before first start and that oil drains down.

The big ends are assembled with oil and get a pressure feed in seconds.

The small end is assembled with oil and I’ve never heard of it suffering from lack of oil at startup.

Possible detriment? Seeing as you ask. Over-oiling new, cold bores could adversely affect ring seating. If you really “fill the crankcase” (and that’s what you said), you would have difficulty starting the engine and it would force oil out in all sorts of unwanted directions.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,367
Likes: 38
D
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
D
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,367
Likes: 38
Perhaps fill and drain? A crankcase full of oil could be a swine to kick over, and risk of damage.

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 65
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 65
Hi All, Probably doesn't matter at end of the day. Factory recommended putting oil in sump even after sump oil change. I never do that, but do add 100cc during tear down. Even an extra 50cc won't make a difference starting motor. You won't feel or know it. I feel it's wise to add 100cc to sump on new build as it gives more oil to cam & rockers sooner. In real life with a stop watch about 50 seconds sooner. I've tested this a few times as I was curious. Does it really matter, to get oil sooner? I don't know. I know it doesn't hurt anything.

In any case no matter how much oil is in crank case, it should never leak from motor studs or PRV. If it does something is not sealed right.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,650
Likes: 77
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,650
Likes: 77
Originally Posted by TR7RVMan
Factory recommended putting oil in sump even after sump oil change.
Don

I cannot find that in the Manual. Point it out to me.

http://www.classicbike.biz/Triumph/Repair/1970s/70-Triumph-Repair-Manual-63-70.pdf


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,112
Likes: 65
K
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
K
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,112
Likes: 65
It might not be in the Manual, but we're not all Manual robots are we? Don't we know it's a good idea to have a cupful of oil in the sump on new startup?

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 65
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 65
Hi, On your link to Manual. Go to section B36 pg. B35 REASSEMBLY

Last paragraph just above the page # B35. Add 1/4 cup to crank case. That's 59cc.

However early model year '69 & later motors had shorter scavenge suction tube, I find on those I drain out about 100cc on later bike. So I do 100cc on those.

'73 T140 Manual still states 1/4 cup. I still add 100cc. The extra 41cc is my own idea.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,112
Likes: 65
K
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
K
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,112
Likes: 65
Don is very precise! That is his way, which is good. Reality is just a fair bit of oil down both an exhaust and inlet rockerbox will help with follower/cam lubing and priming the scavenge pump/and sending a little to the rockers. A cup of oil total will be plenty, into the boxes say 15 minutes before starting the engine. I think 200ml total would be plenty. More importantly make sure the crank is filled/primed with oil, using a pumped oil can into the end of the crank before fitting the timing cover.

You should also chase the oil from the tank all the way to the pump, so there is minimal delay for pumped oil to reach the crank. Failure to do this can result in many years wear in just a few moments. Well worth the trouble!

You do want a puddle surrounding the scavenge pipe, it will soon be cleared by the pump to the rockers and tank (good idea once seeing oil returning to hold your finger on the return pipe for maybe a minute to encourage oil through the rockers).

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 65
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 65
Hi All, I stand corrected. Manual doesn't say add to motor sump after oil change. Just during assembly.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,650
Likes: 77
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,650
Likes: 77
Originally Posted by koan58
Don is very precise! That is his way, which is good. Reality is just a fair bit of oil down both an exhaust and inlet rockerbox will help with follower/cam lubing and priming the scavenge pump/and sending a little to the rockers. A cup of oil total will be plenty, into the boxes say 15 minutes before starting the engine. I think 200ml total would be plenty. More importantly make sure the crank is filled/primed with oil, using a pumped oil can into the end of the crank before fitting the timing cover.

You should also chase the oil from the tank all the way to the pump, so there is minimal delay for pumped oil to reach the crank. Failure to do this can result in many years wear in just a few moments. Well worth the trouble!

You do want a puddle surrounding the scavenge pipe, it will soon be cleared by the pump to the rockers and tank (good idea once seeing oil returning to hold your finger on the return pipe for maybe a minute to encourage oil through the rockers).

After a rebuild, I make sure the feed side of the pump is actually pumping oil when the crankshaft is turned.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,650
Likes: 77
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,650
Likes: 77
Originally Posted by TR7RVMan
Hi, On your link to Manual. Go to section B36 pg. B35 REASSEMBLY

Last paragraph just above the page # B35. Add 1/4 cup to crank case. That's 59cc.

However early model year '69 & later motors had shorter scavenge suction tube, I find on those I drain out about 100cc on later bike. So I do 100cc on those.

'73 T140 Manual still states 1/4 cup. I still add 100cc. The extra 41cc is my own idea.
Don

Thanks. I’d have found that if (big “if”) I was following the Manual during a rebuild.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 65
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 65
Hi All, Important to have a free flowing discussion on these bikes. Question everything, bust myths, kick it around & mull it over.
The point is to have a better bike. Together we are more than by ourselves. These forms have increased my skills & knowledge immensely. I thank you all for that.
There is no room for insults as that doesn’t help anyone.
Always feel free to question me, disagree, explain myself or whatever.
The goal is to have fun with these bikes & keep them on the road best we can.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,650
Likes: 77
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,650
Likes: 77
Originally Posted by TR7RVMan
There is no room for insults

Son of a hamster!

Your mother smells of elderberries!


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 799
Likes: 165
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 799
Likes: 165
Morgan, 2 more words to add to the filters.


1970 T120R - 'Anton'
1970 Commando - 'Bruno'
1967 T120R - 'Caesar'
1968 Lightning - 'Dora'
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 631
Likes: 3
T
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 631
Likes: 3
Just to be clear, I only put a small amount of oil in the crankcase (as well as other places) to aid on start up. I am still current chasing the leak but it could be gearbox related I now think.


1968 T150/TR6R
1970 TR6C
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 631
Likes: 3
T
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 631
Likes: 3
I just removed the gearbox covers and found some sharp points on the mating surfaces. They have spent about 40 years in someone' scrap pile so have been knocked around a bit. Note to self - always check before assembly... Lets see how this goes.


1968 T150/TR6R
1970 TR6C
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  John Healy 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Job CycleBritish Cycle SupplyMorries PlaceKlempf British PartsPodtronicVintage MagazineBSA Unit SinglesBritBike SponsorBritish Tools & FastenersBritBike SponsorBritBike Sponsor






© 1996-2021 britbike.com
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5