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A lot of you guys must have fitted one, if so what improvement in the clutch did you find or not in other words are they worth a shout with a hard to free clutch to deal with before every ride (using the cable tie trick at present ) frown

Thanks Dave


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The alloy pressure plate won’t fix plates sticking together.

But you’ll find that the lift should be marginally lighter and you should have less drag as the plate will lift equally and not flex. This is more so with the SRM plate which has the radial thrust bearing setup incorporated into it.


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Originally Posted by Allan G
The alloy pressure plate won’t fix plates sticking together.

But you’ll find that the lift should be marginally lighter and you should have less drag as the plate will lift equally and not flex. This is more so with the SRM plate which has the radial thrust bearing setup incorporated into it.

The clutch is pretty light thanks for that Alan saves me a few bob smile but still leaves me with a horrible sticking clutch.Having undergone a complete recent clutch re-build rollers,clutch hub, thrust washer,cush rubbers,etc have tried various different oils Halfords Morris you name it nothing seems to work,smashed 3rd gear mainshaft now fixed but i think it was down to the clutch not freeing frown Getting a little paranoid over this now is it something i'm missing on just simple adjustment that i'm getting all wrong.Pressure plate is pulling nice and square having free play in the push rod slackened cable at the lever right off i'm then turning the hub adjuster in until the plates just start to lift and then backing off 1 full turn, then adjusting lever free play 3mm not sure what else to do frown It's really bugging me because out of the 4 bikes i have the Bonnie give me the biggest smile

any guidance appreciated guys

Cheers Dave


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Originally Posted by Dave Lid
Having undergone a complete recent clutch re-build rollers,clutch hub, thrust washer,cush rubbers,etc

No mention of new friction plates though which should significantly reduce the sticking problem.

If you want to spend some money then I'd suggest you buy a 7-plate (Hyde or Aerco) kit or a new set of standard friction plates.

https://www.triumph-spares.co.uk/7-plate-clutch-conv-hyd-bpt19
https://chris-knight-mcs.co.uk/clutch-plates/7-plate-clutch-conversion-triumph-twin-cylinder-models

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I rather like the MAP No-Drag plate set. You get fresh steel plates as well for about the same $.

Pretty cured my A65 of slipping at least. Dont have an issue with sticking.

http://www.mapcycle.com/categories/...pac-tri-bsa-ii-s-spec-no-drag-12pcs.html

Ray


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Dave,
I wonder if your sticking clutch problem is that same as I have found recently on my Daytona - gearbox oil on the clutch plates? !

I had recently overhauled my primary drive with 'new everything', but I found that after a few miles on the clock the clutch plates would not separate properly after the usual start up drill, even though I was using ATF in the chain case (nice distinctive red colour). The bike would often stall the first time it was put into gear, but after that it was OK. I got so fed up with this problem that eventually I had all the clutch apart and found that the plates were coated with gearbox oil (golden colour, not ATF). This was cleaned off by soaking the plates overnight in paraffin, but how did it get there and what to do next before I put it all back?

I reckoned the only way this oil was getting inside the clutch was down the clutch push rod drill way in the main shaft; this was because the the brass bush at the other end was rather worn. The clutch push rod is a loose fit in the drill way itself, so to avoid having the gearbox apart at the start of the riding season I turned up a small brass "top hat" sleeve for the main shaft hole to go around push rod at the clutch end. This is a push fit in the main shaft and a reamed fit on the push rod and thus does not allow much oil to pass. The clutch separates first time every time and it has fixed the problem until I can replace the bush at the other end.


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Thanks for the replies
On that note it's new set of plates then, although all were well within spec and not warped crazy How long do i leave them soaking in oil before installing tis a wet designed clutch innit.

Cheers Dave


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Originally Posted by Dave Lid
How long do i leave them soaking in oil before installing tis a wet designed clutch innit.

You shouldn't need to soak them for any length of time in my opinion unless instructions say otherwise, just smear with oil and fit them as the oil is there to lubricate the primary chain.

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Dave,
The clutch does not really run in oil: as LAB says the oil is just for the primary chain. Note that the later machines with the self-levelling primary breather system barely have 50cc of oil in the chain case, just enough to wet the chain, so the clutch is mostly dry with just the odd trace getting on the plates. The point is was making earlier about oil getting inside the clutch/on the plates was that lots of oil - especially gearbox oil - will really stick them together and should be removed as much as possible to avoid this problem.


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Just had the gearbox out to replace 3rd gear Stanier8F what was noted the clutch plates were bone dry with very little oil in the primary,inspection of the rotor cover i found it badly distorted with a crack around the lower fixing hole i think i may have been leaking oil around that area,iv'e now replaced with a new cover and used silicon instead of the gasket.Picking the new stock plates up tomorrow morning and just going to smear oil on them LAB iv'e made a dip stick with 1/2" notched as a marker for the primary case as suggested by Don in a previous post i can easily do regular checks on the oil level through the top inspection hole.

Thanks Dave


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+1 to LAB and Stanier,

It is essentially a dry clutch. There is always a possibility of initially filling with too much oil, especially if your Manual advises 350ml.

This will likely cause slip and drag until the level falls to the naturally equilibrated level (with ~150ml remaining).
This volume equates to the level at which the chain under the clutch only just dips into the oil bath.

You won’t be able to control this level, it does it automatically (varies a little depending on use, see TR7RVMan’s posts) but it will always remain low. No harm in monitoring it though.

I do suspect that if, for whatever reason (too much oil, low spring pressure just 2 possibilities) the slipping between friction and plain plates can cause an over-heated oil surface on the friction plates. This then reduces their effective friction, and its all down hill from there.
The ultra-smooth surface of the friction pads then have no avenue for release from the plain plates (air must be allowed in to permit separation), especially if there is cold, thick oil surrounding them.

You might try rubbing your friction plates with an abrasive, I wouldn’t recommend it as the abrasive particles will be left in the surfaces, and will potentially find their way into the engine. A light rub with a fine file might do it, but replacement is the best option.

If you choose to replace, then it’s a judgement call whether to replace with standard plates or one of the 7-plate systems. I’ve only used standard, satisfactorily, but mine’s only a 650.
The 7-plates have good reports, so maybe worth trying. No absolute answer, suck it and see!

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The 7 plate setup makes for a nicer clutch plus it uses surflex plates
which are still the best.
If the clutch sticks when first stated just use a cable tie on the lever when you park it,
that's all we used to do when racing running R30 and breathing into primary. Used to
slip a bit until warm but no sticking problems.
Some blokes reckon ATF is better but my road bikes just use 20-50 in the primary
(engines breath into primary) and i don't get sticking problems.

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I could never understand the logic of soaking friction plates in oil. Friction plates need friction to operate. Oil reduces friction. Seems counter productive. When I used to ride a lot, every year, I would remove every thing in the primary for cleaning. The friction plates got blasted with parts cleaner, wiped off then hung out in the sun to dry. The metal plates got cleaned then a light touch with a palm sander with 180 grit sandpaper to clean off any glazing. Cleaned again. The palm sander puts very light swirl marks on the metal. I think it improves grip. Never had a problem with sticking, even after sitting all winter. If there was any slippage I knew the clutch was not adjusted correctly.


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Roughing the plain plates is not the way to go. If you're gonna do that, why not just file radial grooves in the plain plates?
Then the inserts can lock into the grooves. Great, no slip!
But useless too, as a clutch.
Proper clutch action requires decent components assembled properly. Simples.

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I have never figured out how the needle roller in the pressure plate works.
Seems to me that the rollers must be slipping rather than rolling most of the time.
"Bemused from New Jersey"

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You can see the swirls but you can't feel them. They are microscopic. I have always used Barnett clutches. They last for years. You do your way, I'll do mine.


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“I have never figured out how the needle roller in the pressure plate works.
Seems to me that the rollers must be slipping rather than rolling most of the time.”

In actual fact the rollers are doing nothing most of the time. It’s only when the clutch is slipping that the bearing is doing any work ie relative motion between hub and basket.
This only happens when the clutch is pulled, say between gear changes.

There was an old fashioned theory that holding the clutch at a stop would wear the pushrod, this is nonsense. All the old stories derive from over-tight cable adjustment.

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Unless the needles and races are tapered only one point along its length can not be skidding if they are actually kept in radial alignment. The cages have clearance to the needles so they might actually move in short linear paths around the circle. Just a guess.
The load around the bearing is usually not even so the rollers could be cocked off the race and only the end is rolling along the surface.
Look at the chainwheel thrust needle in a triple and you usually find the rollers and race are fretted which I would guess is from the rollers skidding.

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...there is no any needle roller in the pressure plate. May be you are talking about a Triple clutch?

I have the MAP plates and never stick; no matter if you do not use the bikes for weeks. You do not need to disengage it.
Then your other problem could be that the pushrod is not doing the job the right way.
And may be add that you have there too much oil.
Other point is that if you have indentations in the basket, the plates cannot separate right.

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Consider this.
The clutch shock absorber and pressure plate are both connected to the mainshaft. The clutch pushrod resides inside the mainshaft. Is it unreasonable to suppose that the rod will rotate with the mainshaft? When releasing the clutch, a force is applied to the rod at the RH end and then on to the clutch plate. I find it likely that the rod won't suddenly come to a halt from this force, as it's a point contact only at either end. Besides, the rod is unlikely to come to rest in the dead center of the shaft with nothing but air around it. I believe it will be pushed to one side and even bend a bit, which will tend to aid continued rotation with the mainshaft.

I believe that in a standard clutch the rod will continue to spin at almost the same speed as the shaft with little to no slip between the pressure plate and the pushrod.

A radial roller bearing won't likely see no rolling motion at all, as the relative movement happens at the point contacts between the release mechanism and the rod, and the rod and the "top hat" plunger, which I believe will have far less friction than the radial bearing. To my mind the radial roller "solution" falls into the bells and whistles category. It looks nice until you realize what's really going on.

The "Top Hat" plunger may be nice though as it will tend to aid the pressure plate in lifting squarely. It's something I have considered trying, but I find that with quality plates and new springs, the standard clutch usually works very well.

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Originally Posted by reverb
...there is no any needle roller in the pressure plate. May be you are talking about a Triple clutch?

No, it's the needle roller that's part of some pressure plate 'upgrade' kits.

http://shop.srmclassicbikes.com/product/bsatriumph-3-spring-models-pressure-plate-kit

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...hi L.A.B; just seeing.

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Having now fitted new stock clutch plates,i'm pleased to inform you all the Bonnie is now officially off the naughty step thumbsup Having set up from the Works Manual just a little bit unsure when truing the pressure plate up is correct to leave the pins flush with the nuts or must they be backed off even,the clutch has adjusted up ok
Thanks for all advice guys much obliged

Dave


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Hi Dave, Good!!! What a fight!

What brand plates did you use? Where did you get them. We need to know what works in real life.

Did you reuse steel plates?

Don't stress on wobble. No need to split hairs. You want to get it close as you can, but I've seen many with a surprising amount of wobble & they released fine. Tip. mark spring nuts 1,2,3. Use a wire as a pointer screwed to case. Looking down you can see high spot. Compare that to the numbered nuts. I find it saves time & gives better results.

Often you get it prefect, then it just changes a little. Fool around with it & then let it go. Doesn't have to be perfect. When you pull clutch lever you want to pressure plate to move & see how it frees plates. If you measured lift, you'd want .115-.120" ish. That seems to work well. If all is original lever, perch, ball cam. & a good cable that's not stretchy & all is adjusted well the lift just works out.

Regarding spring tension & wobble. The thickness of all the plates determines spring nut position. New Triumph plates gave about 1.400" stack height. All 12 plates together. If you have that dome of nut flush with end of stud gives correct tension. If stack is thinner than 1.400 go deeper with nuts by the difference.

Adjusting wobble going deeper or outwards with nuts. With 650 springs I tend to go deeper with 1 or 2 nuts. 750 springs are so strong I'll often split the difference. One nut will not be touched.

I can say this with 100% confidence, when all is correct the steel pressure plate works perfectly good. It releases just fine.

With Hyde 7 plate the friction circle is larger than best for steel plate. In that case MAP cycle plate is only one in world I've found to match the pad circle on Hyde. It is also desirable with Aerco 7plate. However the original steel works quite well with Areco as friction pad ID is smaller. All the other alloy plates have similar, but most are smaller diameter than steel plates. In some ways a step backwards. The only advantage is pressure face is wider, but that doesn't seem to matter with stock plates. The open face of some alloy looks really neat. I've not found any difference between operation with open or closed face pressure plate. Sometimes I think the possible flex of steel plate can give smoother take off at friction point.

I have larger diameter alloy Britech ( no longer made so far as I can tell) for use with Hyde plates. I now have Aerco plates but since I had the larger diameter alloy, I'm using it. If I didn't I would just use the steel one. I've done back to back road tests of 100 miles each. The steel works perfectly with Aerco. If feel the least desirable is smaller diameter alloy with Hyde. Still friend of mine is using that & it works fine. So again it doesn't matter too much. I have several friends using steel with Hyde. It works fine. However it does indeed wear the top few frictions unevenly. It does not grip quite as tight with same spring tension as the larger diameter alloy.

End of day, good is good. Why did you original plates stick is a mystery that yet is to be solved. I don't know it will be. So variable. Obviously there is an answer, but so far we don't seem to know it.
Don


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Well those could be one of those things where you ask yourself what was the last thing I did? I see you replaced the clutch basket. There are occasions where the width of the "key-way" clutch tab slots taper inward as they approach the back of the basket. This prevents the plates from moving freely in-and-out leading you to make it feel that the plates are sticking together. We have a plate made in the US that has a history of sticking, no feel like they are welded together. It requires you to physically pry the plates apart with a lever. But, will they transmit torque. I doubt seriously if this is your problem. I would check the ability of the plates to move freely, both friction and plain, in their respective slots.

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