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Originally Posted by tommy
Also the cases were never blasted. Just cleaned with brake cleaner and soap and water. Could be from the cylinder head, those were bead blasted
Thorough cleaning for bead blasted parts is a must. I'm glad your cases weren't bead blasted. It eliminates that possibility.

How about your oil tank? was it removed and flushed out with gasoline or paint thinner and then with hot soapy water until nothing dirty remained? Oil tanks can accumulate a lot of engine damaging debris over time. They gotta be clean.

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I do remember rinsing with gas and cleaning the oil tank with soapy water. I’m just gonna have to clean and clean then clean again and when I think it’s clean, clean it again like some kind of meth addict.

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Tommy, I applaud your positive attitude and response to opinions and suggestions...it's hard to diagnose engine issues without having 'eyes on' and parts in hand and we all have opinions.
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Overheated rod small ends usually have oil baked on like your one piston dome and ring lands, your pictures don't indicate this. Were the wrist pins nice and silvery as when new or were they discolored from heat...just a follow up question.

How does the top end look? Were the rocker boxes nice and oily inside? How about a picture of combustion chamber side and rocker box side. Not sure about your comment on blued back side (face?) of intake valve. Any possibility of a picture of the valve?

Is your oil tank stock or chopper style aftermarket? When you cleaned the tank were you able to see bare metal all the way to the bottom? Years of accumulated sludge is hard to remove but could be softened and loosened and ingested by a new engine build. Chopper style tanks often don't have the same size oil restriction hole on the oil return side which limits oil supply to the top end hence my questions about 'nice and oily' rocker box internals and condition.

.0048" piston clearance sounds about right and a cleanup hone job wouldn't change that much...would be nice to use torque plates to do this but many many have been done without. The cylinder shop should be familiar with older engines utilizing soft iron rings and use the appropriate stones etc. After cleaning the cylinders with hot soapy water, scrub them clean with paper towels and ATF until there is no indication of black residue of any kind, then do it again with fresh paper towels and ATF. Before this final cleaning make sure the cylinder bolt holes are clean and free of any crud also. Make sure rings are oriented per ring install instructions and that they have the correct end gap and if you have to file the rings be sure and deburr the ends and clean the rings to remove any abrasives from gapping.

I'm still thinking the main bearings are suspect by the condition of the drive side main in the pictures...especially if it was new 300 miles ago.

Did you remove and clean the sludge trap on rebuild?

Tommy, I don't really see any big problem here that a clean rebuild won't solve. The wrong cam followers located as in the picture shows that you need to follow the Triumph Manual more closely on reassembly and you already know the followers need to be either new or reground for use on a new or used cam that they weren't previously mated with.

I think if you had broken this engine in correctly with the stock carbs and settings we wouldn't be having this discussion but due to what appears to be dirt/abrasives damage, I think this engine wouldn't have lived up to your expectations. Now this is just my opinion of course and I'm far from an expert.

Stick with it and you will end up with a nice fun bike with the best looking engine in the business. Mark R.

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The rocker boxes we’re definitely getting oil and the oil feed hole in the tank was 3/32

As far as I can remember the sludge tube was removed and cleaned but I suspect that I probably didn’t clean it good enough. As well as the oil tank.

The wrist pins were still somewhat shiny. No discoloration. Just some wear marks

I just sent out the heads crank lifter and rods to jobscycyle

I’m gonna do the hone myself. I do have a flex hone. Also I noticed that they sell Hastings rings with chrome top ring. Are those ok or better to use all cast

I’ll post more pics.

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Pics

C15E34A4-095B-4CDE-9234-14648DD9275F.jpeg 96A331E6-0AD1-4BAD-A459-8926F638B969.jpeg C3F97B43-F749-4E6C-AF3E-63FB9A6095CE.jpeg 1E9D2DB3-77C6-4882-B1D4-42F27FE3821E.jpeg
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More pics

50BD04EA-40F6-4441-A2A8-A86A6936C899.jpeg 91E45FBD-5683-4366-967A-2681F2DB4F46.jpeg 92430FF9-72A8-44C3-A94E-DE5D01F0CEED.jpeg D68BCEF4-0F6A-4C6F-B648-605E7493BE48.jpeg
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Cam bushing I.d. Are right on spec with that is suggested in the triumph Manuel. When cams are installed into their homes should there be noticeable side to side play.

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Tommy, I can't say I've seen valve adjusters as bad as yours, no way these were new 300 miles ago. Valve tip can be saved by grinding and a lash cap if all else is good. Cams will have some end play.. book calls for .013"-.020", bushings last forever, I see some scratches but think you may be better off to leave them. The Hastings rings with top chrome will no doubt hold up longer when installed in a correctly prepped and true cylinder bore, I have not used them so can only speculate.

I'm going out on a limb here, but it looks like the original rebuild was done with new pistons and rings and a new cam, all else would appear to be to worn/used to have been new. I commented on the drive side main bearing as it looks like an old bearing to me. You didn't say if the bore was straight, true and honed correctly for the new pistons on the rebuild originally. Horse power, efficiency, oil consumption all depend on a good ring seal which depends on a good bore and prep and a good break-in. And of course, a good valve job. Your cylinder spigots look thick which implies to me plenty of good bore left in case a rebore is needed. Like I said, without actually seeing and measuring it's all speculation from my seat.

I don't know your mindset on an old Triumph, is it worth spending money on or is it just an old beater to get running as inexpensively as possible? Since you've sent some parts out to a shop it would appear you're willing to try and get this right, I hope it's a good shop, if so it might be worth your while to have them set up the pistons and rings for you...a second set of experienced eyes wouldn't hurt here. I know it's not rocket science but maybe money well spent?

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I did have the cylinders bored and honed by a reputable shop so im thinking i should be ok with just a quick hone to deglaze the cylinders.

also i did use new bearings when i previously rebuilt the motor.

I think my mistake was not cleaning the motor good enough and using old lifters with the cams. this time around ill make sure i take my time and double check measurements and cleanliness.

I guess ill have to also order valve adjusters, any recommendations?

Last edited by tommy; 04/21/21 10:17 pm.
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The engine has suffered from dirt, but in dirty engines with no other faults the bearings exhibit pronounced wear in a band in the centre of the bearing where the oil hole is. This is where the dirt first comes out into the bearing and causes the damage, your bearing wear is across the full width of the bearing which suggests there are other issues such as low oil pressure caused by incorrect clearances and/or oil issues as well as dirt.


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When prepping parts for a rebuild , cylinder bores can be cleaned / scrubbed with hot soapy water so that a paper towel rubbed on the bore comes away clean.
All oil ways should be rodded through with pipe cleaners and solvent, all moving parts get a triple wash in paraffin/ kerosene/ your solvent of choice or until no more dirt comes off. If you have an ultra sonic cleaner use it. Do not rely on a parts washer to clean parts fit for assembly, they are good for an initial clean but often have dirt in the cleaning solution.
All assembly is ideally done in clean room conditions,clean bench top, all new clean rags, clean hands,clean tools, trimmed nails, closed doors, air misted down to remove dust.
Its easier to replace oil lines than clean them, tanks can be rinsed , brushed / rinsed, repeat till clean.


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What Gavin just said rang a bell for me.
In my late teens growing up in UK I learned my motorcycle engineering from a old road racer of the old school (he raced in the years after WWII against Geoff Duke retc)
When we were building an engine you were not allowed into the garage if you had dirt under your finger nails!
Happy days!

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Shame the factories were never like that though eh?

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Yes--you are right, Nick, the factories were certainly not the cleanest places--- I only had personal experience of Meriden but doubt that the others were any different.

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I agree with Kommando on the oil thing though, the damage to the tappet gear and cams
along with the marking on the ends, signify poor oil presence. Check the relief valve hasn't
stuck open with grit, 'cos there was definitely some present.

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Originally Posted by tommy
What could cause the cams to get hot. Oil pressure was good as far as I can tell? Steady oil coming out of the oil tank return line.

Your Triumph has 2 pumps, feed and return, having a good return does not tell you about the oil pressure on the feedside. You could have had an inverted seal in the timing cover or an OPRV valve stuck open. In both cases the crank is starved of oil as the pump feedside is dumping the oil before it gets to the crank, the oil is plentiful in the sump so the return side shows good flow. So a good return flow does not tell you much, testing the oil pressure is the only way to know the oil is getting to the crank.

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Originally Posted by kommando
Originally Posted by tommy
What could cause the cams to get hot. Oil pressure was good as far as I can tell? Steady oil coming out of the oil tank return line.

Your Triumph has 2 pumps, feed and return, having a good return does not tell you about the oil pressure on the feedside. You could have had an inverted seal in the timing cover or an OPRV valve stuck open. In both cases the crank is starved of oil as the pump feedside is dumping the oil before it gets to the crank, the oil is plentiful in the sump so the return side shows good flow. So a good return flow does not tell you much, testing the oil pressure is the only way to know the oil is getting to the crank.

I’d even say it’s living dangerously to run a Triumph twin without either an indicator, warning light, or gauge for oil pressure.


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Originally Posted by NickL
Shame the factories were never like that though eh?
. Not so much until recently with more precision tolerances...Many races were won by engines disassembled and reassembled out in the open in the pits...But they only had to last the one race...
I figure if the pistons and bores are scratched up a bit, then just run at the higher rpm so the cylinder pressure has less time to escape....


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i found this crack on the stator mounting hole. i filed it a bit to clean up the the casting and see how far down it went. In your opinion, do you guys think it will be fine or have someone weld it and prevent it from spreading?

Im inclined to get it welded but just curious on some peoples opinions

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Last edited by tommy; 04/25/21 12:16 am.
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