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#846199 04/15/21 6:12 pm
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I posted a picture of this clutch on the Triumph board but when fitting it I found that I actually made it for the A65. The Triumph version needs the damper retaining plate moved outboard to clear the sprocket door.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

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Hi

Looks good David, does the outer cover have clearance when the clutch is disengaged!

John

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A basic requirement, I think. Yes, it clears the cover.

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Hi David

Ha ha, well scored. After another look at your photo it would be the actual body plate tang's which would be closest, looks the business. How does the centre x-over to the shaft!
By the way the Suzuki clutch I converted a few years back had minimal clearance with the outer cover, but any clearance is enough.

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Uses stock fat washer and shouldered nut.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

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I posted on this on the triumph board.
Think i may have a snag with the outrigger.
Is there any form of cush drive?

Last edited by NickL; 04/19/21 2:00 am.
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This uses stock Yamaha type cushions between the chainwheel and basket. The B50 design uses stock KTM cushions between the drum and hub as done in the 450 and 525..
The outrigger problem could be solved by making the hub longer and have the outrigger bearing run on the hub rather than the mainshaft. If more space is needed between the back of the clutch and high gear, a little can be gained but not much.

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Is the sprocket basket alloy or steel? I've used an alloy sprocket and shards of anodizing speckled the oil, which was shared with the motor.

I have extra plates and narrow linings in the Firebird clutch now with heavy race springs, but it's still boarder line. You can fit a rear wheel with a cush if necessary. I have both on the 883 and Ben and my brother.


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This one is bare aluminum but the final ones will be hard anodized. Steel would be more expensive. The B50 clutch does not have the double ball bearing on the chainwheel, just a bushing, because there is no room. The KTM has a needle bearing but the hub is shorter and does not have the long taper in the mainshaft. If a new door were made with a bearing then a thrust washer could be used to keep the chainwheel in place instead of spiral rings which take up room on the hub..

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I'll have the engine on my bench in a week or so, i'll do some measuring.
Looks like a nice job David, i prefer chain over belt drives.

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I was able to squeeze a little more room between the hub and door. I measured 2.450" between the end of the mainshaft and the high gear (not the bushing). If the bushing were cut back to the end of the high gear a SCE138 (13/16" x 1-1/16" x 1/2") needle bearing can be built into the door.

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I use a 6204 bearing with the centre machined out to fit the mainshaft.

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Not within the capability of most users. I presume you have a special collet to hold the inner race to grind it?
No room for a 14mm wide bearing, perhaps it would be better to supply a new door with the needle bearing? Probably needs a felt ring to keep dirt away from the bearing.

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The shaft isn't hard enough to run a needle directly, plus the 6204 is the sealed type.
The bush is cut off on the top gear, the bearing can sit back a bit.

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The 5Spd high gear runs needle bearings on the mainshaft, I do not think the 4Spd shaft is any softer but have not checked. Torrington makes inner races with 13/16" I.D., 1.0" O.D. but only 0.765" and 1.015" long. They can be shortened, two can be made from the 1.015" for the 0.438" wide B-167.

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I presume the bearing is a slip fit on the shaft and sealer is put on the I.D.?

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Normally use a drop of 638 on the shaft/bearing inner.
Tried a needle race years ago and it wore the shaft, once again
this is on a sidecar outfit,,,,,,,bloody brutal. Plus the ball race
does allow a little deflection and is sealed. (Well,,, sort of anyway)
Engine breaths into primary.
Could try a 60042rs 12mm as opposed to 14.

https://imgur.com/cSUhbJq
https://imgur.com/a8DiS9r
https://imgur.com/WkKULq9

Last edited by NickL; 04/22/21 10:57 am.
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Are you selling the clutch kit Dave?

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Not this one. I am working on a slightly different design using the KTM Belleville spring and pressure plate.
NickL, they do make thin section ball bearings but in that size they are only 4mm wide. Probably too light even if ganged together. The needle with inner race would have more load capacity than the 6204. Is the breather outlet off the primary also or is the primary breathed into like the later engines? I do not think there would be much leakage past the needles and a felt cover would catch it.

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Originally Posted by DMadigan
Not this one. I am working on a slightly different design using the KTM Belleville spring and pressure plate.
NickL, they do make thin section ball bearings but in that size they are only 4mm wide. Probably too light even if ganged together. The needle with inner race would have more load capacity than the 6204. Is the breather outlet off the primary also or is the primary breathed into like the later engines? I do not think there would be much leakage past the needles and a felt cover would catch it.

6004? https://www.skf.com/au/products/rol...deep-groove-ball-bearings/productid-6004

Available as 2RS version too.

The engine breathes into primary and it does pi$$ out if you don't use a sealed bearing.
The engine is vented to atmosphere but via around a 10mm breather so you still get
a pressure wave in the primary, enough to blow past a bearing.

Last edited by NickL; 04/23/21 12:04 am.
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I am surprised that a 2RS keeps the oil from blowing by. The seals are made for grease, not oil. I made new inner primary cases for the triple with a ball bearing replacing the needle bearing to hold the chainwheel/clutch. The prototype just had a 2RS ball bearing but it would not completely keep the oil from weeping through so I had to add an oil seal running on the spacer between the chainwheel and clutch.
A seal can be put in the door to run against the face of the high gear nut. That might be better than going to a lower capacity bearing.
Another choice is to completely change the clutch design to the one I drew for the B50. The dampers are in the hub, same as the KTM 450, instead of the chainwheel. The clutch drive plates are mounted in the chainwheel and the drive plates mount on a drum. The Belleville spring pulls the drum and pressure plate together for drive. The dampers go between the drum and hub.
Not having the dampers between the chainwheel and basket narrows the clutch by almost 1/2". The double row ball bearing for the chainwheel can be retained.
Just thought of another change, make the high gear longer with a cylindrical end beyond the sprocket nut threads that extends through the door. Then with the ball bearing running on the high gear there is no leak path to the outside. A seal can be put in the high gear, like the five speed version, to seal between the gearbox and primary.

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I can live with a small weep of oil which you get with the 2RS.
It's far more important to have the bearing there.
I normally put an o-ring on the mainshaft between the top gear and the bearing
not ideal but it works, lasts a season anyway. It's just nipped between the two
faces.
The ball race lasted me for a season when i raced, that was with a 900 motor
so i think it'll be ok. They are cheap and easily available just have to set up
and machine a few at a time, ceramic tool and a jig plate.
Getting involved with changing gears etc makes the job of fitting the clutch
way more complicated, the case isn't under any large pressure so oil leak is
very small. If it's just a bolt on unit you'll sell more, if the gearbox has to come
out etc it'll put people off plus it'll cost more.

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I was thinking the extended high gear and door with bearing would be part of the 5 speed gearbox. The clutch would be the same bolt-on replacement in either case. The high gear has a seal in the end so the gear oil and primary oil stay separated.
Going over the original design with the cushions in the chainwheel and the KTM version with the cushions in the hub the latter makes the clutch thinner. The limitation is the distance to the mainshaft under the pressure plate. A little more room can be had if the one race of the ball thrust lifter bearing were part of the lifter rather than a separate part. The lifter would have to be hardened but that should not be a problem. Even without that the clutch is narrower.

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The oil transfer into the primary or g'box is tiny so i don't see that as a problem but
as you say a seal would be nice.
If you are doing the whole 5 speed setup then using an extended top gear is definitely
the way to go, you can make the sleeve compatible with a larger bearing id.
A splined mainshaft is even better as most blokes have trouble with the taper, certainly
on larger motors.
That clutch would be so much better anyway so even as a fitment for a standard bike
without the outrigger it would be a very saleable product. Just producing ones and two's
for racers is not going to earn you much, better to leave those adaptations to the users.
We have a couple of decent 4 spring units just now but i would be interested to know
the sort of money you are talking about for one, they don't last that long and that unit
does look like a very nice job. But then i wouldn't expect anything less from you.

Can you reduce the tooth count on the basket? I'd like to run the box as fast as i can.
say 48-50t?

Last edited by NickL; 04/25/21 1:49 am.
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A B-218 needle (1-5/16" x 1-5/8" x 1/2") will run on the high gear already hardened for the roller RJ009 bearing. The B218 inner race is just smaller than the sprocket spline.
What do they use for a stop for the clutch hub when using a splined mainshaft? Just the run-out of the cutter? Or do they have a step in the shaft?
Yes, the basket teeth can be reduced, a fair amount of room between the plates and chain. I have to figure out what length chain will work.
Of course the big question is what colour it should be.

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You'll have to ask John Hill about the mainshaft spline but i think they just use the run out.
You can set the alignment at the engine sprocket with shims.
78 links should be ok with 48 i think (standard is 80)

Orange would be a suitably horrible colour eh? Don't make it blue or you may upset SRM........

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Last edited by NickL; 04/25/21 4:49 am.
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That calculator only gives approximate centre distance. The A65 has 6.6875" centre distance. Chains are only available in even pitches (half links are unacceptable). With the 28/58 teeth sprockets the calculated chain length is 80.0093 pitches. Calculating teeth down to 50 for the clutch does not result in a chain length close enough for the adjuster to an even link. Changing the engine sprocket teeth to 27 gives a 79.0093 link for a 57 teeth clutch and a 26 teeth engine sprocket gives a 78.0093 link for a 56 teeth clutch. The ratio is going up, not down.
Given how many primary cases have gouges from loose chains it would not be wise to go to a larger engine sprocket.
Here is a print of the longer 5spd high gear compared with the Triumph version. I have to lengthen the roller land width. The gear it was modelled on was an earlier version with narrower rollers. That is the RJ009 which has 0.394" wide rollers.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

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Spline has a circlip from memory, I added a washer for alignment. It's so much easier to remove the clutch centre. No need for massive torque on nut. Apparently the ball ended plunger doesn't fit this but it would be good if one could. Maybe the cam plate pushes it too far in or something? It's virtually impossible to select neutral when stopped. But easy enough when still rolling. Gavin adjusted his to select better in that 1st N area. If and when it comes out sometime I'll have a look, maybe the N indent could be deeper because it goes across it into the next gear. Which is handy in a way. The back cut pulls the gears in when selected.

That bearing can be replaced with one half the width and have a proper seal on the outside. Mine uses the primary for breathing and dust covers do not cut it.

Ratios on this are perfection. Nothing like what Quaif built for A65s with strange ratios worse than stock with 4th and 5th far far apart, worse than the Triumph 5speed even. These help the engine and keep it right in the power. Never lacking for a good gear when following the Aprilia Michael owned for a while, the 4speed had less choices.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


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Dave, i ran a 33 tooth engine for years on my old crate with 82 link pre stretched duplex chains.
I had the alternator housing machined off. I ran a 32 before i used 33 but 33 made chains last longer.

This is the old type cases so no alternator but 28/47 comes out ok. at 6.75in 1.68-1 is good as a ratio.
I may run a t140 29t engine and try as well.

I like the proposed top gear setup, now i see what you mean.

https://imgur.com/K5LQV5W

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That 'box looks bloody lovely!

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I think I use a 16005 bearing and narrow seal which is the same od and fits the 5speeds extension. You can use a spacer machined for the std shaft size and that bearing, and the tube can be pushed back a bit so it has space, and run in the std seal on a stepped section at the back. I also use that bearing outside the alternator. It's narrow but doesn't fail.

Though what a sidecar does who knows. That G/box is like jewelry. How strong it is with a chair I don't know, I thought the std ones were pretty good. I have a Triumph 5speed main shaft in the shed that's snapped in half.


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After talks with Allen, I changed from the stock range of ratios to a wider gearset with 1st at 2.786. I came up with two options for in between. One has a more straight line in the MPH/shift curve, the other drops off more. A disadvantage of the ratios that drop off more is it needs a different cutter for one gearset. The more linear gearset can be cut with one Module cutter set.
I found the Norton also uses a circlip to butt up the clutch hub against.
I think the needle bearing in the door would be the best option. The root of the output sprocket spline is 34.29mm. The high gear seal is 1.1875" (30.16mm) so nothing else fits without grinding the inner race.
BSA racing colours were red/white so red would be an option. When I had the rebuildable sliders hard anodized clear they came out sort of olive drab. That would be an interesting choice.

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This is the hub and drum (tapered shaft version) print
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
I will make a splined version when I have a shaft.
A 16005 bearing has a 25mm ID. Unlikely the high gear extension is that small. The Triumph 5spd high gear uses a 1-1/16" OD needle.
A 47 tooth clutch would be tough to fit. The plate tabs are 5.648" and the pitch circle of a 47 tooth is 5.614". The clutch plates and drum flange would have to be moved outside the chainwheel and there is no room for that.
If a 29 tooth engine sprocket will fit, a 54 tooth chainwheel gives a 78.0544 link chain (0.0204" longer than exact) and 1.862:1 ratio. If you are going to do that then might as well change over to Hyvo chain and cut off another 1/4" of width.

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Hmm, i hadn't even considered a hyvo type chain.
My concern is that they require very good alignment and with
all the bending and flexing that goes on here i wonder how
they would behave and how well they would wear. Also the
wear rate on the clutch drum would be high with 54t, would
53t go?

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If you remember, there used to be a Hyvo chain and sprockets for the original stock clutch back in the day. I do not know how well it worked and have only seen a picture of it.
With the sprocket door bearing there should not be much flexing at the clutch and if you use an outrigger bearing on the crank like what Mark has done everything should stay in alignment fairly well.
If going from 58 teeth to 54 is going to increase the wear rate a 53 is going to increase it more. And a 47, as you originally wanted, would be worse still.
With a 53 tooth you need a 30 tooth engine sprocket.
I got the chain length error backward, with a 29/54 sprocket pair the required length is 78.0544 pitch, a 78 pitch is too short. A 30/53 tooth pair requires 77.918 pitches (78 pitch is 0.03075" too long).
A 53 tooth reduces the radius by 0.298".The cutout for the side plates would be within 0.010" of the clutch plate tabs. Not much meat left.

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Looks like i'll be looking for a larger engine sprocket.
Odd numbers are always better i've been told as far as wear goes.
I may as well just see if i can find a triplex 32t and use an 82 link again
with standard 58t clutch.

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A 29/54 (1.862:1) ratio is not low enough? A 32/58 is 1.8125:1 that is less than a 3% change. At 7500 RPM the clutch speed is 4028 versus 4138 for the 32/58.
I think the odd number of teeth is analogous to a hunting tooth ratio in gears. A 78 pitch chain takes 9 revolutions to come back to the same tooth on a 54 tooth sprocket.
I will have to make 58 tooth chainwheels for people who want to keep the original ratio. Although, people with comical hubs are always complaining about not being able to put a smaller sprocket on the hub and 21 tooth gearbox sprockets need the door opening widened.
For a 20/47 rear sprockets and 26" wheel radius the 29/54 has a top speed of 132 MPH and the 32/58 is 136.

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Dave, if you produce a 58 and i can run a 33 on the engine it gives me 1.757-1
the standard a65 ratio is 28/58 so that's 2.07-1
At 6500 rpm that's 3700 vs 3140 a 500+rpm change = nearly 20% so it's worth while.
It made a difference when i did it before. Anything is better than nothing when it comes
to running these boxes faster. I will see if i can get a t140 sprocket and see if it fits first up.
I may have a triumph crank around somewhere with a sprocket on it, just need to try it.
I don't want to waste your time if you are just going to produce a standard one, i'll just
have to work round it. Just that renold don't do pre stretched chain anymore. We run a 17
on the gearbox output side, can't use a 16 as it fouls the cases. If you do end up making
a 54 then i'll go for that naturally, it'll speed the box up by 400+rpm so, great.

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Making different tooth chainwheels is not a problem. I already blanked out an engine sprocket for the A65XS, have to put it on the rotary to cut the teeth then have the spines cut. A local shop specializes in broaching. If you need one off engine sprockets I can do it. The major cost is heat treating which has a minimum charge but you might be able to get that done locally.

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That's very handy to know Dave, please advise via mail cost of doing a 32
engine straight away. OR a carrier that fits on the a65 spline so i can turn up
piloted sprockets and bolt them on. I can get the heat treatment done here.
The triumph sprocket doesn't fit, the spline is smaller.
No-one around here will do the spline for it, i was looking at turning the centre
out of a standard one and doing it that way.

As an aside 34-57 with 82L looks good...........

Last edited by NickL; 04/28/21 12:10 am.
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Basket, drum and hub
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
I will widen the base of the tab tangs and notch the outer edge. If this were made from steel like for the B50 then just notch the edge.
The roll pins, dampers and plates are KTM 450. Add on top the KTM pressure plate and diaphragm spring. Barnet sells a 20% stronger spring.

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Hy-vo chains are meant to be the thing, from what I've read. The triplex that stays in line seems ok, though when they pull out of line the teeth hit the side plates and it looks like they push them off, then it fails. The original chains seem better riveted, or hold better. The 1200 Laverda triples used the same chain but regina I think. Bens BSA has a new regina that looks good quality. The Laverda may have bigger or better supported shafts.

Last edited by Mark Parker; 05/01/21 2:06 pm.

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That's why when i raced i used a duplex chain, they actually lasted longer as they
stood the flexing better. I couldn't get a crank outrigger in there with a 33t sprocket.

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Paying close attention.

Dave - could you put Newby belt drive teeth on the outside of this basket?

...

Last edited by Semper Gumby; 09/06/21 3:26 pm.
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If I knew what the tooth profile is. For the Norton NRS I had the teeth cut for a Gates GT2 belt but these are a proprietary tooth form so expensive since they have to be sent out.

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Originally Posted by Semper Gumby
Paying close attention.

Dave - could you put Newby belt drive teeth on the outside of this basket?

...

Why???


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (now rebuilt)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

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I love the Newby but I want (probably Need) the Cush drive. If I can have both without having to put on a different rear wheel it would be nice.

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`Why - you get an 8/9 plate clutch, readily available plates, standard or 20% stronger Belleville spring, chainwheel that does not flop around when the pressure plate is lifted.

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Originally Posted by DMadigan
`Why - you get an 8/9 plate clutch, readily available plates, standard or 20% stronger Belleville spring, chainwheel that does not flop around when the pressure plate is lifted.

Yes please with the Newby teeth so I can keep the belt YES!

I can't have the chain because of the way the roller bearing crank floats on the primary side. Until I can get the rebuilder to lock the crank on the primary side I can't have a Chain drive. That is why.

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You can't run it with either a belt or chain if the crank is not located some way.
Belts are no less tolerant of this.

Never seen a primary chain break at a race track, but primary belts....................

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Honda has used HyVo/Morse primary chains for years on bikes that are heavier and more powerful than Brit twins. Also used in every modern US 4x4 truck transfer case...I don't know how they compare in durability to a similar sized roller chain..


79 T140D, 89 Honda 650NT ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons
"I don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"
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Yes Hyvo are great but require very good alignment.
With all the flexing and bending of shafts in these old crates, i doubt they
would do much better than a good roller.

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Yes, I was assuming the mainshaft and crank are parallel and the clutch basket is held to minimum end play..... wink


79 T140D, 89 Honda 650NT ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons
"I don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"
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