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Found on the front end of my T160...? 

I happened to be working on the '78 Bonneville which is right next to the Trident and when I took the front wheel off the Bonneville to remove the brake caliper, I looked over to the Trident to compare, just to do it... 
 
That is when I discovered this odd bit on the right side of the assembly. 

Looks to be a speedometer drive used by other manufacturers.  The stock speedo drive and cable are in place on the rear of this T160 and working. 

It appears that a PO had also swapped out two of the cap securing nuts with the taller , shouldered nuts to accommodate the drive or whatever it is...

Any clues as to what this is...?  No mention of it in the parts manual

Thanks,
Rob



[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]


[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]


[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]

Last edited by Robert Dentico; 04/12/21 2:00 am. Reason: Title

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Robert-- that is truly a strange one.
IMHO the speedo drive should not be there.
It looks as though the DPO thought that the space needed a spacer--so provided one from his spares box!
No spacer is needed at that point.
I happen to have one of my T160s on the lift at the moment so a few minutes ago I took a couple of photos----one on each side of the wheel.
These are shown below.
Pretty self explanatory I think but in case they are not the one with the nut showing on the spindle is on the primary side (the side with the disc for the disc brake).
I strongly suggest that you investigate what is going on with that front wheel that you have---that strange spacer may be hiding other strange things--and you can't take chances with wheels and brakes.
HTH

T160 Front Wheel (Drive Side).jpg T160 Front Wheel (Timing Side).jpg
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Thanks Tridentman for taking a peek at yours. Yeah, imagine my surprise to see that friggin' thing, I did a double take and then a triple take before investigating... not actually believing what I was seeing.

I think you are correct, the DPO was just filling a space that, possibly unbeknownst to him, did not need to be filled. Crazy. The primary side on mine looks exactly like yours so that is a good start.

When I get through with the Bonneville I'll pull the front wheel and plan on at least wheel bearings when I take it down.

Thanks much, I appreciate you.
Rob


"They told me I was gonna have to work for a livin' but all I wanna do is Ride" - Jackson Browne

Current:
'75 T-160 Trident, '78 T-140 V Bonneville, '72, T120R Bonneville, '71 T100R Daytona, '13 Electra Glide, a garage Full of Guzzis, '88 Honda Hawk GT, '84 RZ350 KR, '78 Yamaha XS650, 1969 Dalesman Trials etc. and a '73 MGB for good measure... smile
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Originally Posted by Robert Dentico
I think you are correct, the DPO was just filling a space that, possibly unbeknownst to him, did not need to be filled.

Not only does it seem a lot of trouble to go to (shouldered nuts!) for an unnecessary "spacer" as it should've been obvious to whoever did it that the hub can't move along the axle, also the outer 37-1237 dust shield (13) rotates with the wheel with no protruding axle shoulder (or bearing inner race) for a spacer to locate against without removing the dust shield (as it is flanged so would crush and either cause the wheel to bind or lock) so perhaps there's more to it?

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

https://www.feked.com/triumph-bsa-f...idth-and-conical-hubs-circa-1957-83.html

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Originally Posted by L.A.B.
Not only does it seem a lot of trouble to go to... perhaps there's more to it?

An incredible thing to do in my estimation. No idea what the thought process was there.

I'll get to the bottom of it, hopefully nothing was damaged. The Trident rolled well, no hint of a dragging wheel. Scary to think about really.

So I'll order the complete axle's worth of bearings and dust shields and get after it.

rd__


"They told me I was gonna have to work for a livin' but all I wanna do is Ride" - Jackson Browne

Current:
'75 T-160 Trident, '78 T-140 V Bonneville, '72, T120R Bonneville, '71 T100R Daytona, '13 Electra Glide, a garage Full of Guzzis, '88 Honda Hawk GT, '84 RZ350 KR, '78 Yamaha XS650, 1969 Dalesman Trials etc. and a '73 MGB for good measure... smile
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Originally Posted by Robert Dentico
Originally Posted by L.A.B.
Not only does it seem a lot of trouble to go to... perhaps there's more to it?

An incredible thing to do in my estimation. No idea what the thought process was there.

I'll get to the bottom of it, hopefully nothing was damaged.

Is there a drive spindle?
If so, does it rotate? In which direction and what is the ratio?

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Originally Posted by L.A.B.
Is there a drive spindle?
If so, does it rotate? In which direction and what is the ratio?

There is not a drive in the barrel of it, I had intended to mention that on the first post and just forgot.

The wheel spins freely and no binding with the hub thingy.

Best,
Rob


"They told me I was gonna have to work for a livin' but all I wanna do is Ride" - Jackson Browne

Current:
'75 T-160 Trident, '78 T-140 V Bonneville, '72, T120R Bonneville, '71 T100R Daytona, '13 Electra Glide, a garage Full of Guzzis, '88 Honda Hawk GT, '84 RZ350 KR, '78 Yamaha XS650, 1969 Dalesman Trials etc. and a '73 MGB for good measure... smile
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Well after a short hiatus from the Trident while I sorted out the Bonneville I finally got back to this front wheel issue...

This is the oddest thing I have ever seen, someone went to a great deal of trouble to insert this "Spacer" into the front wheel and it appears to have all the workings of a functional speedo hub as seen on other makes.  There is no speedo drive though, the boss where a cable would attach is blank.

Thinking that I need a replacement hub.  

Check this out.

[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]

[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]

Note the hole drilled for the speedo lug...

[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]

[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]

There is No circlip groove in the hub...

[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]

Oddly enough, even though the ID appears to have been machined to eliminate the circlip groove, the dimension allows for the bearing to fit properly and the dust cap to be a pressed fit.  Without the circlip installed though I would not be able to install the bearings and axle assembly. 
 
[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]

[Linked Image from imagizer.imageshack.com]

As luck would have it, I purchased new bearings, dust caps and grease retainers when I refurbed the Bonneville front wheel. 
So, I guess I will be able to practice wheel lacing too, as soon as I find a hub. 

Best,
Rob 


"They told me I was gonna have to work for a livin' but all I wanna do is Ride" - Jackson Browne

Current:
'75 T-160 Trident, '78 T-140 V Bonneville, '72, T120R Bonneville, '71 T100R Daytona, '13 Electra Glide, a garage Full of Guzzis, '88 Honda Hawk GT, '84 RZ350 KR, '78 Yamaha XS650, 1969 Dalesman Trials etc. and a '73 MGB for good measure... smile
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Ahh, I do believe I know what happened here...  No idea why on Earth someone would do this. 
 
After looking closer to Tridentman's reference photo that he posted it dawned on me that a PO had machined the right hand bearing boss of the hub down enough to face off the area with the circlip recess....!  What the hey...? 

That at least explains the fact that the ID is still correct, only the circlip groove is gone.  The top of the circlip is ~ 0.125" below the top surface of the bearing boos area.

The following is based on two measurements of both this hub and I am using the '78 T140V hub as reference.  Only because they look the same, not entirely certain that is a good reference.  

Trident hub       ~ 0.628"
Bonneville hub = 0.784"
A difference of ~ 0.156" which would have taken the circlip groove. 

I would appreciate a check on the Actual measurement of that bearing boss from someone with a Trident hub.  The face of that boss to the base of the hub. 

Again, new hub coming up. 

Thank you,
Rob


"They told me I was gonna have to work for a livin' but all I wanna do is Ride" - Jackson Browne

Current:
'75 T-160 Trident, '78 T-140 V Bonneville, '72, T120R Bonneville, '71 T100R Daytona, '13 Electra Glide, a garage Full of Guzzis, '88 Honda Hawk GT, '84 RZ350 KR, '78 Yamaha XS650, 1969 Dalesman Trials etc. and a '73 MGB for good measure... smile
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Originally Posted by Robert Dentico
Ahh, I do believe I know what happened here...  No idea why on Earth someone would do this. 
 
After looking closer to Tridentman's reference photo that he posted it dawned on me that a PO had machined the right hand bearing boss of the hub down enough to face off the area with the circlip recess....!  What the hey...? 

That at least explains the fact that the ID is still correct, only the circlip groove is gone.  The top of the circlip is ~ 0.125" below the top surface of the bearing boos area.

The following is based on two measurements of both this hub and I am using the '78 T140V hub as reference.  Only because they look the same, not entirely certain that is a good reference.  

Trident hub       ~ 0.628"
Bonneville hub = 0.784"
A difference of ~ 0.156" which would have taken the circlip groove.


Yes, I think you're correct.

The T140V RH front hub section is the same as the T160 (37-4127)*. I measured the ID at 1.850" and the circlip groove diameter would be more than that (approx. 1.885") so if the circlip groove isn't there then the boss must have been machined down.  

*(late T140 part was 37-7059 but will replace 37-4127)


Originally Posted by Robert Dentico
I would appreciate a check on the Actual measurement of that bearing boss from someone with a Trident hub.  The face of that boss to the base of the hub.

Without removing the wheel and RH disc from my T160 then I can only give you the dimension from the face of the boss to the bolt face of the disc, which is 0.532" but it certainly looks as if the boss has been machined down.  

Originally Posted by Robert Dentico
Again, new hub coming up.

Half a hub perhaps...however, the flimsy sheet metal circlip only retains the dust cover, so I suggest you fit the dust cover (with Loctite or adhesive sealant if it isn't a reasonably tight fit) and leave it at that.

https://www.britishmotorcycleparts.co.nz/37-4127-hub-half-rh-front-triumph-disc

Last edited by L.A.B.; 04/12/21 3:02 pm.
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It appears someone intended to put a modern front wheel speedometer drive on. The circlip is not critical on that side because the wheel is held laterally by the shouldered axle and nut on the other side. The circlip keeps the bearing from walking out so you could put a new spacer on the axle to replace the speedometer drive and spacer.
If you are using sealed bearings the dust shield is not needed or you could open up the hole in the dust shield for the new spacer. Or, you could make a disc to fit against the bearing outer race and put in a larger snap ring. The new bore appears to be 47mm so a Smalley VHM-47 or EH-47 would work.
Much cheaper than replacing the hub.

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Originally Posted by DMadigan
The circlip keeps the bearing from walking out so you could put a new spacer on the axle to replace the speedometer drive and spacer.

If you are using sealed bearings the dust shield is not needed or you could open up the hole in the dust shield for the new spacer. Or, you could make a disc to fit against the bearing outer race and put in a larger snap ring.

There never was a "spacer" on the RH side. The hub locates on the left-hand (disc) side as you say and the RH fork slider is located to the axle by the two axle cap studs, therefore, no need for any additional spacer.

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Yes, there never was a spacer on the right side but there originally was a snap ring to keep the bearing in the hub. The suggestion of using a spacer was another way to keep the bearing from walking out of the hub without the snap ring. I thought that was clear as an alternative to replacing the hub.

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Originally Posted by DMadigan
Yes, there never was a spacer on the right side but there originally was a snap ring to keep the bearing in the hub. The suggestion of using a spacer was another way to keep the bearing from walking out of the hub without the snap ring.
I thought that was clear as an alternative to replacing the hub.

I'm doubtful anything is required to "keep the bearing in the hub" for one thing, there is no bearing spacer tube inside the front hub so the bearing could just as easily move inwards as outwards edit as the RH bearing is knocked outwards from the LH side after fitting until it seats against the dust seal using the axle shoulder (T160 manual, section F16) so a spacer would seem to be fixing a non-existent problem in my opinion.

Last edited by L.A.B.; 04/13/21 3:39 pm.
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If nothing is required to keep the bearing in the hub then there is no need for the circlip. the T140 directions are similar, Section F12:
"To remove the right hand bearing, spring out the circlip and insert the wheel spindle from the left hand side and drive the bearing out complete with inner and outer grease retaining plates"
Is there no shoulder in the hub to keep the bearing from moving inward? Without a shoulder there is nothing to keep the inner grease retaining plate from sliding inward. I am fairly certain it is not a press fit in the hub.

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Originally Posted by DMadigan
If nothing is required to keep the bearing in the hub then there is no need for the circlip.


Well, the T160 rear hub does have a spacer on each side and also has a spacer tube, the hub is located by the LH bearing and threaded lock ring so the RH bearing in the rear hub cannot move, however, the hub still has the thin circlip which can only be retaining the dust seal.


Originally Posted by DMadigan
the T140 directions are similar, Section F12:
"To remove the right hand bearing, spring out the circlip and insert the wheel spindle from the left hand side and drive the bearing out complete with inner and outer grease retaining plates"

That's removal not fitting.


Originally Posted by DMadigan
Is there no shoulder in the hub to keep the bearing from moving inward?

I believe so but neither the bearing nor the grease retainer locate against it (see the following).

Edit: Or I/we could be wrong?

[Linked Image from i.ebayimg.com]
http://www.mapcycle.com/uncategorized/37-7059-hub-rh-half-front.html
[Linked Image from mapcycle.com]


Originally Posted by DMadigan
Without a shoulder there is nothing to keep the inner grease retaining plate from sliding inward I am fairly certain it is not a press fit in the hub.

The RH bearing inner 'grease retainer' is the same part as the outer 'dust seal' (37-1237...'2') so must also be a press fit.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

The directions in the T160 manual section F16 for fitting the RH bearing are as follows:

"To refit the bearings first insert the right grease retainer, bearing and outer dust cap,...
...Refit the spring circlip and insert the shouldered end of the wheel spindle from the left and using it as a drift to drive the bearing and grease retainer until they come up to the circlip.
" although in actual fact that would be grease retainer, bearing and dust cap.

Therefore the grease retainer and RH bearing do not locate against the inner shoulder.

As I see it, the inner shoulder (Edit: if there is one?) prevents the grease retainer from being inserted too far and falling into the hollow hub.

Grease retainer, bearing and dust cap, therefore, are inserted further than necessary, the circlip is installed then the shouldered end of the axle/spindle is used to knock the retainer, bearing and dust cap outwards away from the shoulder until the assembly locates against the circlip.

Last edited by L.A.B.; 04/13/21 7:52 pm.
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what inner shoulder ?
i dont see a shoulder on the right side hub ,
is this how they were all made ?
[Linked Image from mapcycle.com]
if so , its all held by light press fit , grease retainers and bearing ,
and only pushed in Far Enough to fit the outer circlip ...
seems like a ham-fisted owner could punch 3 or 4 bearings inside the
hub before running out of room .

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Originally Posted by quinten
what inner shoulder ?
i dont see a shoulder on the right side hub ,
is this how they were all made ?

if so , its all held by light press fit , grease retainers and bearing ,
and only pushed in Far Enough to fit the outer circlip ...
seems like a ham-fisted owner could punch 3 or 4 bearings inside the
hub before running out of room .

Yes, I should have looked for examples before I posted.

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An odd setup, to me at least, sorry. I do not remember that from when I rebuilt the wheels for my OIFR3. Hubs usually have a fixed bearing and a floating but the floating bearing is usually retained on either the I.D. or O.D. whilst the other is retained on both.
So what you seem to be saying is there is no reason for Robert to replace the hub half, the circlip is only there to have something to push the bearing and retainers against. He could just use a spacer as a temporary stop when installing the parts then remove it.

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Originally Posted by DMadigan
So what you seem to be saying is there is no reason for Robert to replace the hub half, the circlip is only there to have something to push the bearing and retainers against.

To me, the function of the circlip seems to be to retain the dust cap, however, if Robert wants to fit a spacer just for peace of mind as there's no circlip then I can't see it doing any harm as long as it doesn't place any side-loading on the inner race (as there's no bearing spacer tube) and would be a lot less trouble (and expense) than replacing the hub or RH section.

If there wasn't a shoulder in the RH hub section then I don't know the reason for the change of part number (from 37-4127 to 37-7059) although the late hub had sealed bearings and only the dust cap, not the grease retainer.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

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Maybe the cir-clip was more useful during manufacturer ?
the grease seals and bearing dropped in from the inside before the hub halves were joined
and the circlip acted as a stop ?

i would have expected a shoulder on the inside , or at least a second cir-clip .

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Originally Posted by DMadigan
Without a shoulder there is nothing to keep the inner grease retaining plate from sliding inward. I am fairly certain it is not a press fit in the hub.

I replaced the bearings, dust caps and grease retainer, no drama. There was a trial and error when setting the right side parts due to the amount of room for the dust caps and bearing Without driving the inner cap too far and falling into the hub due to the machined hub.

My concern also was whether the axle spacing would come out correct however, that was confirmed when assembling all the parts and tightening the lockring and locknut which establishes the correct distance. All good. I am so relived to have resolved this, it could have been a real mess. Well, it was but it worked out.

Installed into the lower legs, the spacing is perfect, axle ends are where they should be, rotor centered in the caliper. Happy with the fix.

Thanks all,
Rob


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Current:
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Originally Posted by quinten
i would have expected a shoulder on the inside , or at least a second cir-clip .
Like on the conical hub? Which uses one on the inside of the RH bearing and on the outside of the LH.
I suspect that the retaining clip on the disc hub is just there to locate the bearing. I always have to heat the hub to drive bearings in. Not a really tight interference fit, but if the bearing can move about axially the hub is worn out.

As for the mystery drive, I suspect that somebody tried to use a different speedo and the drive stripped out, just like our rear wheel drives do.
Or maybe it got serviced at a UJM shop and the mechanic put it there because everything else he works on has a drive there?


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