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to see what would shake loose. Took the old '72 Tiger 5-spd on the freeway to Angel's Crest Hwy but when I got to the long uphill section of freeway I started to notice a bad pinging at part throttle. Lately this just happened at low RPM when starting off. Now it was much worse so I pulled off to set the points back a little. Opened the cover and discovered the pillar bolts had both worked loose. Note to self; get some new lock washers on there. So I retarded the timing by eye (whacked it with a screwdriver to move it about 1/4 inch) and drove on. Seems nice but a little down on power. Start up Angel's Crest and notice that the speedometer plate with the numbers painted on it has vibrated loose and is now rotating around the case. Ok, so no speedometer or odometer, time to order a new one or figure out how to open this original Smiths unit without destroying it completely.
Nice trip up into the mountains taking the twisties faster and faster as I was caught up in the traffic of Ferraris, Corvettes and motorcycles. Had one guy on a super-bike blast right by me in my lane and a BMW (car) passed me with much of his car in my lane as he went by, so that was enough. After that I really gave the ol' K-70s a workout and was scraping the pegs on both sides. Keeping up with most of these idiots. Finally, I decided that this old heap did not have the suspension for anything like this and in any case this is still a shake-down so I slowed down and drove the rest of the way spirited but not dangerously. Actually there was a little rain coming down too and I don't remember these K70s being that great on the wet stuff (or dry for that matter).
Three hour ride and I have no idea (edit; 85 miles) how far, but I thought my $200 Tiger performed well. Just rambling on a sunny Sunday in Calif. -BA

Last edited by BAinLA; 04/12/21 2:27 am.

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It must have been a good day for it. I too went for a shakedown run. Mine only took five minutes, though.
I need to raise the needles in the carbs, and examine the clutch mechanism. It runs much better with half choke, and the clutch only disengages at the very end of the travel. At least it doesn't slip! And, wonder of wonders, it starts first kick.
Back on the bench for more work. If this bike is going to the Three State ride, I better figure it out soon.


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Ok, got the speedometer apart and I see where the problem is. 2 little posts that look like an interference fit into the holes on the face. Now I need to figure out how to repair these so that they can withstand life on a paint shaker.

011.JPG 012.JPG 013.JPG

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Yeah. nice day. A little sprinkle in the mountains but by noon it was sunny in the valley here. I notice that I sometimes need to set a little choke on mine too but I think it is a matter of worn slide and bore (21,500 miles on it), not any adjustment or clog.


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http://www.foreignspeedoinc.com/contact
K 70s look right but Avon Road Riders feel right. Much better grip and control.


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Originally Posted by desco
http://www.foreignspeedoinc.com/contact
K 70s look right but Avon Road Riders feel right. Much better grip and control.

Thanks, I may have to check them (foreignspeed) out if I can't get this face reattached properly. I might try drilling the post area out and using a self-tapping scree with a flat head (or filed flat).

I heard a lot about that Avon tire and may go with them when these wear out. So far though, I am impressed. In the '70s we always went with Avons and maybe I don't ride as hard as, but these K70s seem OK.


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You might want to look at this book: Magnetic Speedometer Repair by Graham Blighe. It focuses on Smiths instruments. I've not actually used it to repair a clock, but it seems pretty thorough.

It's available here: https://www.lulu.com/en/us/shop/gra...r-repair/paperback/product-145wzrzm.html


-Tony

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$200? That's good value!
Frost and salt on UK roads frown

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Hi BAinLA. Great ride!! I love that highway & down (or up) 39. All those highways are just great. Once well sorted these bikes can do the miles & in the heat of summer too.

A long all day ride, but Big Bear Lake is a super fun ride. Take the pavement between the ski resorts at Snow Summit. Many miles of fun easy dirt roads above the ski area. Easy for street bike or even most cars. The views coming down into the valley on way home are stunning! I usually take 330 off 210. The ultimate is take 18 (Waterman) off 210. San Bernardino. Keep eye on fuel level. These bikes suck the gas. Figure only 40mpg. Sadly I don't get down your way much anymore.

You have so many great riding areas there. All year long!

I've done back to back rides on exact same roads same bike version '73 T140 with modern K70 & Road Riders. The difference is really a lot.
Road Rider has decidedly more grip on corners. Allows even me to carry higher speeds on twisty roads. Also the Road Rides are much less prone to follow & give bike the wiggles on rain grooves. Especially the wide deep ones. A very big improvement on the grooves. To me K70 was better feeling on dirt/gravel roads. K70 is decent in rain. I've ridden many miles in rain with K70 even on freeways at speed. I've never ridden Road Rider in rain. I try to avoid scraping the pegs... Scares the pants off me.

Normally pillar bolts didn't have lock washers. Just one or 2 (stacked) flat washers depending on version. If you are running points I'd recommend 36b. About 3/64" off pointer. If you have primary cover with 3 screw access for timing pointer the hash mark on rotor will be 3/64" closer to front wheel from pointer & 3000.

If you install EI & still have ping, run it at 36B. I like to check EI at 4000 even though you'll see it stop advancing at about 3500. EI is better, but can still ping.

What ever happens don't let bike ping at all. I know take off if it's hot & lugs it will give a little ping, that's ok, but while underway if you hear ping at all, down shift & rev motor higher. 50-60 mph is the killer zone in high gear. You let it ping at all, it will hole a piston very quickly. A few things you can do. Any brand of electronic ignition is huge help as full advance is 3500 instead of 2000. Lower compression pistons is also a solution. 2 plug head can work also. The heat of summer & our 91 octane is a piston killer. You can still melt piston with EI as bike will ping in our heat if you lug it. Mixture too lean is a killer as well.

I know a few guys that got the repro Emgo speedos. Look the same but don't say Smiths. They have worked & lasted good. A fraction of the cost of speedo/tach overhaul. If bike is all original the Smiths word is something worth spending $$ on to many. Just throwing the new repro option in the mix.

Do web search. Someone did a very nice tutorial on how they overhauled their Triumph speedo. Luckily on our bikes the rubber cup covers most the chrome ring.
Don

Last edited by TR7RVMan; 04/12/21 6:30 am. Reason: changed sentences

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Originally Posted by 2ndchildhood
You might want to look at this book: Magnetic Speedometer Repair by Graham Blighe. It focuses on Smiths instruments. I've not actually used it to repair a clock, but it seems pretty thorough.

It's available here: https://www.lulu.com/en/us/shop/gra...r-repair/paperback/product-145wzrzm.html

Thanks. I think I have it figured out though. I removed the little plastic rivet and now I see that I can use a screw to attach the faceplate. I'll need a new lens though since I broke this one in my haste. -Brian


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Originally Posted by TR7RVMan
Hi BAinLA. Great ride!! I love that highway & down (or up) 39. All those highways are just great. Once well sorted these bikes can do the miles & in the heat of summer too.

A long all day ride, but Big Bear Lake is a super fun ride. Take the pavement between the ski resorts at Snow Summit. Many miles of fun easy dirt roads above the ski area. Easy for street bike or even most cars. The views coming down into the valley on way home are stunning! I usually take 330 off 210. The ultimate is take 18 (Waterman) off 210. San Bernardino. Keep eye on fuel level. These bikes suck the gas. Figure only 40mpg. Sadly I don't get down your way much anymore.

You have so many great riding areas there. All year long!

I've done back to back rides on exact same roads same bike version '73 T140 with modern K70 & Road Riders. The difference is really a lot.
Road Rider has decidedly more grip on corners. Allows even me to carry higher speeds on twisty roads. Also the Road Rides are much less prone to follow & give bike the wiggles on rain grooves. Especially the wide deep ones. A very big improvement on the grooves. To me K70 was better feeling on dirt/gravel roads. K70 is decent in rain. I've ridden many miles in rain with K70 even on freeways at speed. I've never ridden Road Rider in rain. I try to avoid scraping the pegs... Scares the pants off me.

Normally pillar bolts didn't have lock washers. Just one or 2 (stacked) flat washers depending on version. If you are running points I'd recommend 36b. About 3/64" off pointer. If you have primary cover with 3 screw access for timing pointer the hash mark on rotor will be 3/64" closer to front wheel from pointer & 3000.

If you install EI & still have ping, run it at 36B. I like to check EI at 4000 even though you'll see it stop advancing at about 3500. EI is better, but can still ping.

What ever happens don't let bike ping at all. I know take off if it's hot & lugs it will give a little ping, that's ok, but while underway if you hear ping at all, down shift & rev motor higher. 50-60 mph is the killer zone in high gear. You let it ping at all, it will hole a piston very quickly. A few things you can do. Any brand of electronic ignition is huge help as full advance is 3500 instead of 2000. Lower compression pistons is also a solution. 2 plug head can work also. The heat of summer & our 91 octane is a piston killer. You can still melt piston with EI as bike will ping in our heat if you lug it. Mixture too lean is a killer as well.

I know a few guys that got the repro Emgo speedos. Look the same but don't say Smiths. They have worked & lasted good. A fraction of the cost of speedo/tach overhaul. If bike is all original the Smiths word is something worth spending $$ on to many. Just throwing the new repro option in the mix.

Do web search. Someone did a very nice tutorial on how they overhauled their Triumph speedo. Luckily on our bikes the rubber cup covers most the chrome ring.
Don


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Hi Don, I set the timing on all my vehicles with a timing light. I set this bike to the line scribed into the rotor. I may back it off 2°. I may also send my endoscope into the cylinders to check for carbon. Also it DOES seem to run lean unless I give it a little choke (worn bore and slide).I remember timing my 441s (early 1970s) with a stick down the spark plug hole. You ever do that?

I checked and the pegs don't look scraped. Something else scrapped, maybe the center stand?

This speedo problem looks easy. I just need to find the right screws to re-attach the face, then order a new lens (or use the one from my old tach that was replaced).

Yeah, great rides around here! Looking forward to going up the coastal Rt.1, you know, after I get the motorcycle enhancement to my AAA. It's $41 extra I just learned. I thought it was included all this time. -Brian

I stopped at a gas station at the base of the mountain to stretch out my legs after riding for 2 hours and this guy pulls up in a Mercedes sports car and after a hot blonde gets out to go to the store, starts making small talk about my bike. The guy is so much like Arnold Schwarzenegger I had to look twice. Same accent, very similar face. He tells me he bought a Triumph Rocket 3 from a guy who bought it but was too scared to ride it, literally. It had 500 miles on it. He says it will do 85 in 3d etc etc. He was really jazzed about that bike. I think I'll stick with my little tiger for now! -BA


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Would knock sensors work on a Triumph twin? Cheap enough to buy, would probably need a programmable ignition system to get the full benefit, but even driving a flashing LED would create a warning.

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Originally Posted by Dibnah
Would knock sensors work on a Triumph twin? Cheap enough to buy, would probably need a programmable ignition system to get the full benefit, but even driving a flashing LED would create a warning.
Would be great if they had one. I'll check around but for now my knock sensors are part of my head (my ears).


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Hi BAinLA, Back in the day we had some alcohol race bikes. Rule was double all jet sizes. That would bring you really close. Thinking of our E10 &other difference in California fuel I find 5% more jet may be needed. It seems on all I tune it ends up between sizes... So I to the richer side. John Healy made a tuning guide which I find very helpful. Making the grip in 1/8s compensating for cable slack bars pointing straight. Print the needed pages. Take in on road tests. Do several & digest the guide & feel for backing off throttle. Choke doesn't have effect until the slide is raised to expose choke plug. Experiment with that. I personally keep choke as I'll occasionally need to start bike at 25-32f. It doesn't actually help firing of motor, but reduces stalling & dying after start up & prevents stumbling while underway cold. I like the look of the lever also.


https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...2/1481956877861/Amal+MK2+Carb+Manual.pdf

I've a fair amount of experience with worn slides/bore. The main effect is at idle & just off idle. Turning throttle slowly as possible from idle, heat soaked motor. If it dies or wants to die, that's from wear. Good will raise rpm smoothly no matter how slowly you turn grip. Also once you get feel for it, while riding slowly in the twisty roads you'll back throttle to idle & very slowly rolling on. The motor does a tiny stumble as it dies for a tiny instant. Will do this in slow traffic as well. Much worse in heat of summer. I bet now you'll notice this on next road test. Find a road test route that tests all stages of carburation. Stick to the route for tuning. That makes feeling changes much easier as you memorize feel. I do main jet by going too big until it 8 strokes. Ah ah ah ah misfire. Backing throttle will take it away. More throttle brings it right back. Kind of scary on your first feel of it. I then go smaller size at a time until 8 stroking goes away.

I'm probably start with moving needle full up now. Lean at this position is a piston killer. The needle wears a groove where you ride most often. You'll see that. This makes rich spot. The needle jet wears also from needle moving in it. Really you should have at least new needle before tuning. AMAL now makes a 1065 needle jet if you need a little more fuel on straight part of needle. A worn needle jet can give similar effect. I've done that worn jet, new needle a few times.

You will be shocked at how little throttle you are usually riding at. Needle is still well on straight part so clip position is not even in effect. Again marking grip will tell you that. Slide cutaway is a more costly experiment... Snap throttle is the main test, but actual riding you can feel it as well. On my bike I found it ran better overall with 3 instead of normal 3.5 cutaway. I have .106 & 1065 needle jets. I probably have a $100 worth of jets now from tuning carbs. Very time consuming & takes some practice. Forget Mikuni or SU carb experience you may have. They have full tapered needles & tune differently. AMAL Concentric is it's own thing. New premier has looks same, but has many changes. I may need different slide, jets that original did. Float level is very different.

Looks like Premier castings are on back order from supplier, so AMAL has back ordered carbs. Some still in stock in USA. Tiger carbs may be more available in USA?

What float are you using? The original hollow plastic is a fire hazard as our fuel softens the plastic allowing flooding & fires. I had that on my bike. If you can't find new, worth cost of new stay up float & needle kit, needle & a few jets. At your mileage carb should be very worn, but you can nurse it along until new can be found. You can learn to ride around the dying off idle by raising idle speed. Cheat idle mixture slightly lean. Never open throttle slowly off idle. I rode nearly a year like that. Took me time to learn all this. Then carbs were on back order. I've covered 10k miles on my premier now. Just check for wear. Slide & bore have zero wear!! Needle & needle jet have expected amount of wear for 10k miles. About time to replace now. Not horrible though.

I ended up tuning my old carb using used slides, new needle & needle jet, new main jets until I found best combination. I then ordered carb from AMAL direct as they would build to my request. I wanted new banjos & top as well. Generic carbs are often not correct for what may want. Sellers seem more willing to make changes no charge these days. Old banjos & tops can usually be swapped over to new premier.

Yes I have my "dip stick" timing tools from the old days... Haven't used them in years, but I have '64 Cub awaiting me to get it running. That takes dip stick.

Knock sensor would be nice. Vacuum advance like cars have would be nice. Vacuum advance to electronic cell to computer EI would be nice. None of that is going to happen. I don't want dual plug heads. I finally through in the towel & put 7.1 Harris pistons in 650s & 7.4 in T140s. You'd think it would reduce power greatly. In real riding it doesn't. You need octane we don't have for 9.0 pistons to take advantage of the compression ratio. I don't have any fight left in me. I just use lower compression pistons. Allows me to take the long rides to mountains & through valley in 110+f heat with no issues. No more race gas needed. A mechanic at Rabers lived in Scotts valley area near Santa Cruz. Commuted to work on later 60s Bonnie over the pass hwy 17 to San Jose. Got tired of the ping & having to use 3rd & rev motor so high. Installed 7.1 as an experiment. Never looked back. Neither do I. Just makes bike more fun to ride for me. There are other ways to stop ping & add power if that's what you want. Sounds like you may want that?? Thing is these bikes are just different from modern to ride. Primitive & so much fun!
Don


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Megasquirt sell knock sensors "for experimental purposes"

http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/knock.htm

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Don, thanks for that. Actually I am very pleased with the carb as-is. Starts 1st or second kick every time, idles pretty well (with air screw all the way in) immediately after cold start I can drive easy or hard with no misses (choke closed 80% depending on the weather, gradually opened as it warms up). Mid throttle and full is perfect. The pinging was due to the points being loose and moving around. I sometimes find that suddenly rolling on the power it bogs if I don't have the choke closed a little. It is a balancing act because I don't want to run rich either. I'm going to look inside there and see if I am accumulating carbon deposits.
The float I have is a regular stock type. I guess I should upgrade. I can't remember exactly what I put in this carb last year, I think it was a new needle jet that really made the big difference. I bought a slide but it wouldn't fit the bore at all. Also, the carb gasket kit I ordered just had the skinny "o"-ring so I had to go with the gasket on there. But really, I am very happy indeed with the performance of this ancient carb. I seem to get ~48 MPG driving like a sane person, but I just can't seem to be able to tame my right wrist.
If it turns out that I have a load of carbon in there I have some GM "Top Engine Cleaner" (outlawed YEARS ago) that I will spray in there with the engine running and gas-out my neighbors.
I didn't realize that this pinging was a common problem on these bikes but I am inclined to just retard the spark a bit if I have to rather than install 7-1 pistons. I think it has new rings (I see the notes from the Orig. owner) so I'd rather leave it if I can. Thanks again, Brian


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Looks like carbon for sure;

[img]https://i.imgur.com/1dWdo0i.mp4[/img]


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Avoid that spray cleaner. It's made for water cooled V8s. As long as the float floats it's OK. If that new slide was a correct one and it did not fit, your carb maybe has been sleeved already. I used to send brand new carbs out to be sleeved. Better running and last for ever. Oh, for the good old days when I had money.


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If that bike idles with the screw all the way in there is something wrong with it.
http://www.jba.bc.ca/Bushmans%20Carb%20Tuning.html


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Originally Posted by desco
Avoid that spray cleaner. It's made for water cooled V8s. As long as the float floats it's OK. If that new slide was a correct one and it did not fit, your carb maybe has been sleeved already. I used to send brand new carbs out to be sleeved. Better running and last for ever. Oh, for the good old days when I had money.

Thanks for the tip on that cleaner. I'll save it for my '69 GMC if it ever needs it.

That really puzzled me, why a brand new AMAL slide would not fit. You might be onto something. I'll send another email to the original owner who I tracked down recently.

Yeah, I know that air screw shouldn't be in all the way, but it runs so nice like that! I'm pretty much done messing with the thing anyway. I must have had it off the bike 4 or 5 times already. The real hard part of that is getting that little rubber connector to the airbox to fit over the carb and the airbox. (Tiger, one carb to the center of box).


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Run it without an air cleaner till you get it right. It will not hurt anything. When you have it off 40 or 50 times you'll have something to bitch about.


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Pull the carb cap. Look at the top of carb body. If it's been sleeved there will be a seam between the carb body and the sleeve. The sleeve will be a different color. Look at the slide. Who ever did the work should have stamped some info inside the slide. Name, cut away number. If you have the idle air screw all the way in, that's as rich as it can get. If you need to run with the choke on, that's too rich.


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desco, I'll have a look the next time its apart. Yeah, I should have just run it with the air filter off but I guess I'm an optimist. Each time I was so sure I had it right! I expected it to work for years. I'm learning. -Brian


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Originally Posted by TR7RVMan
What ever happens don't let bike ping at all....You let it ping at all, it will hole a piston very quickly
Running race gas helps a lot BA. The pinging vanishes! You can buy it at the pump from the Alliance station on Chesebro Rd just off the 101. It's 103 unleaded. I use it all the time and fill a 5 gallon can whenever I am by there.

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