Classic British SparesKlempf British PartsBaxter CycleBritBike Sponsor SteadfastCyclesSRM EngineeringLucas Classic MotorcycleHepolite PistonsIndustrial tec supply

Upgrade your membership to: Premium Membership | Gold Membership | Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Welcome to BritBike Forum!
Britbike forum logo
Member Spotlight
demonfonzarelli
demonfonzarelli
Southern Ontario, Canada
Posts: 23
Joined: September 2004
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#844528 03/29/21 9:59 pm
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
T
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
Hello Forum

I took my '69 Thunderbolt out for a long ride this weekend. I hooked up with some AMCA members for a ride. Went with a 79 Guzzi, a 61 Panhead, a Knucklehead rat bike, and an awesome CBX. I rode about 120 Miles on Fri. Stayed with my son, Rode probably 100-120 miles on the ride, and another 120 Sunday to get home. Say 360 total miles.

I left the house with a full tank of oil. Toward the end of the ride I checked and oil was at the L mark. Hmmm. I bought a gallon, added a couple quarts, and strapped the rest to the bike. Upon returning Sunday checked and it was back on the L mark. So I lost about a gallon of oil. Where did it go?

I looked up a thread from Jan '14

Regarding the breather: On the second attempt at joining the cases the camshaft was in a bind. The third attempt I was careful to line up the cam and the breather disk and made sure the cam rotated freely. Still.

I don't think it is burning it. That much oil through the engine would be billowing clouds of smoke. And there are none. Plugs look pretty good, a bit sooty but it runs rich at idle. Exhaust tips are sooty but not greasy.

When I park there are no puddles, a drip or two, that's it. One would think it would be dripping everywhere, but it 's not.

Today I pulled the primary cover and there is definitely oil in the primary, but not much. So there is a crank oil seal issue there, at least.
I drained the sump. This is all the oil from both primary and sump.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

I don't know if this picture will show it, but there is evidence of oil on the right side muffler. Left much cleaner, but not spotless, there are a few streaks on the top.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

The only thing I have found so far, was the bolt that secures the oil return manifold to the case was a bit loose. I found that Sunday morning and tightened it. And still lost two quarts on the 120 mile ride home.

Where does a gallon of oil go, without leaving much trace?

Somewhere between running, and running well, I suppose.

I finally got around to better background than my junky garage. Here are a few pics.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!

Check out British motorcycles for sale: British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,034
Likes: 56
K
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
K
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,034
Likes: 56
“I left the house with a full tank of oil. Toward the end of the ride I checked and oil was at the L mark. Hmmm. I bought a gallon, added a couple quarts, and strapped the rest to the bike.”

So when the oil is at the L mark, you can still get another 4 pints in the tank?
Does that bring the level to H?

I wonder if you may be over-filling the tank?

1 member likes this: Allan G
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
T
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
"So when the oil is at the L mark, you can still get another 4 pints in the tank?
Does that bring the level to H?"

Yes, about two quarts from L to the 4 mark, perhaps a bit over. 5 indicates H.

I know to check when returning rather than cold. I suspect it wet sumps a bit when left alone for a couple weeks or so.

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,027
Likes: 90
Q
Britbike forum member
Online Happy
Britbike forum member
Q
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,027
Likes: 90
you can drip lots of oil
without thinking it ever amounts to much .,
not saying its a case drippedge here .
but
my Fuzzy Math says
1 drop of oil evey 28 ft
adds up to a quart in about 100 miles .

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,034
Likes: 56
K
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
K
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,034
Likes: 56
Quinten, I was curious as to how you came to the drop every 28ft, so I went through the fuzzy maths.
A quart in 100 miles equates to 1135ml/100 X 5280ft
=2.1 X 10E-3 ml/ft

So in 28ft, 28 X 2.1 X 10E-3 = 5.88 X 10E-2 ml

I've done this in Imperial gallons, so dividing by 1.201 to get to US gallons presumably used here:

28ft loses 5.88/1.201 X 10E-2 =0.0525 ml

That's about a twentieth of a ml. Is that what you estimated as "a drop" in the first place?

Whatever, 4 pints seems a lot to lose in that distance.

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 13,804
Likes: 95
Well'ard Rocker
Offline
Well'ard Rocker
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 13,804
Likes: 95
Every oil leak I've ever had on an old Brit (and there have been a lot of them) have ALWAYS left a stream of oil somewhere on the bike.

When you're going down the road at 50 + MPH, oil doesn't just "drip down" off the engine or oil tank or out of the crank breather and disappear onto the road. The wind and slipstream is going to make it coat the whole arse-end of your bike.

Two quarts of oil in 120 miles is (to use a highly technical term, derived from Whitworth/Lucas units) a sh!tpotful of oil. Anytime I've lost even half of that, the rear half of the bike, the tire, the rear wheel, etc, is streaming oil like a B-17 radial engine with five MG-151 20mm shells through it on a mission over Europe.

Typically, if the engine is overfilled (and you look like you're aware of that issue and prevented it), the excess oil will come out of the breather behind the drive sprocket, and it goes everywhere. If it were coming out of the oil manifold, your rear tire would be soaked in it, you wouldn't even be able to keep it on the road.

I don't know the answer, but it's way beyond my rather extensive BSA oil-leaking experience ....

Lannis


"Why do you wear that thing, Dobby?" "This, sir? 'Tis a mark of the house-elf’s enslavement, sir."
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,027
Likes: 90
Q
Britbike forum member
Online Happy
Britbike forum member
Q
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,027
Likes: 90
the "drip" volume was just pulled off the google , very fuzzy
18927.1 liquid drops per quart ... the liquid wasn't specified ...
so I did drops per inch ... or rather one quart of drops in 100 miles
this could very well be the wrong approach
because the velocity of the dripper was not taken into account
so done differently ,
60 miles an hour is 88 feet per second .
at one drop per second @ 60mph traveled distance
would be about 315 miles to drip 18927 drops .
( this is 3 times over my original estimate ).

I doubt that all the missing oil here is down to leaks ..
i wasnt trying to make that case .
as lannis said , leaks leave evidence .

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,723
Likes: 132
G
Britbike forum member
Online Content
Britbike forum member
G
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,723
Likes: 132
Rings or guides. have someone follow you, accelerate hard in 3rd then shut the throttle. If its guides then a puff of smoke will be seen when the throttle is closed. The leaky manifold wont have helped, that would give the streaks on the RHS silencer. Check the manifold is true and flat next opportunity, a half inch flat 2nd cut file drawn across the brass will show high spots.
Most likely its exhaust guides, if the carb has been set up over rich it may have washed the bores to accelerate ring wear.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 7,859
Likes: 122
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 7,859
Likes: 122
It's likely you have the wrong dipstick for your oil tank, there are 3 in total different types and each one showing different levels, one for the B25/B44 models and a different one for A65/A50. The 3rd type was a compromise and included markings to suit both bikes.

Its likely you have the wrong type and are over filling the tank, it'll be fine whilst your pottering about but anything spirited and you will start to find the level drop to the L mark.... Wierdly it never seems to drop any lower.... but that could be I topped it up again before it had chance to.

Least this was my experience...


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
T
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
Thank you for thoughts.

I wiped it down a bit yesterday. The underside was wet. Swingarm, and the frame had oil on them, but just a film. The rear rim had a film, but oil is not getting on the tire in enough quantity to effect traction, I couldn't really find any evidence of oil on rubber. The undersides of the exhaust were coated.

Clearly, Ol is leaking out of the engine. The impression I get is that the loss is happening at speed, and turbulence or whatever is whipping it out and away. Otherwise it would be dripping at idle or while setting.

Regarding wet sumping: Overnight, this much oil slipped past the pump.
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

1. I'm going to inspect the oil return manifold and make sure all is well there. It bugs me the bolt was loose, note to add a dab of blue on assembly.

2. Then I'm going to power wash the underside. Take it for rides and pay more attention to where it's leaking from.

But,,,, Ol, no that's not miss-spelt. Here in Oklahoma and Texas, what most folks call oil, is properly pronounced ol.

Anyway Ol is also entering the primary. Ol is goin' %#&[email protected] everywhere, but leaving no puddles.

3. I fiddled with the primary crank oil seal quite a bit as I assembled the cases three times to get it right. It's likely I damaged the seal on installation. OR I have case pressure issues. Either way I need to order a crank ol seal, or two.

While I'm looking for leaks and waiting on parts, what do I do with the primary?

Do I disassemble the clutch basket to clean the plates, flush out the 40 weight, and reassemble with ATF? Or just put it back together, put fresh ol in tank and a bit in the primary? Can I get away with limited riding to troubleshooting and attend Fandango.

Texas, Fandango is coming up April 9th, I'm planning to put it in the show, and hopefully participate on rides Sunday.

What damage am I doing to the clutch by running 40 Wt Ol.?
Should I plan on replacing clutch plates?

Finally, assuming I go that far, I'm thinking seriously about accessing the final drive sprocket and replace with a larger one. It's pretty damn buzzy at sustained 65 MPH.

First I gotta figure out where all that ol's goin'. St. Greta please forgive my ecological sins.

Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
T
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
Allan

It hadn't occurred to me to question the accuracy of the measuring device.

This is the dipstick from '69 Thunderbolt Oil Tank that I have.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 7,859
Likes: 122
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 7,859
Likes: 122
Hi Tracey,

I apologise as my post may have been a little misleading, or at least not accurate for an A65... after reading the attached service sheet, you must not use the upper mark on the unit singles.

DipStick Markings.jpg (69.17 KB, 171 downloads)

Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 417
Likes: 164
S
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 417
Likes: 164
Originally Posted by Tracey Spear
I don't think it is burning it. That much oil through the engine would be billowing clouds of smoke. And there are none. Plugs look pretty good, a bit sooty but it runs rich at idle. Exhaust tips are sooty but not greasy.

Where does a gallon of oil go, without leaving much trace?
I recently got a badly neglected Trident survivor fence queen and did enough repair to make it a useable bike (no top end work). It runs really well and is satisfying to ride. But, it is an absolute OIL HOG.. It gulps down a quart every 130 miles or so. It has the typical leaks from the rocker boxes but it doesn't leave a slick when parked, even for a month or two.

After 1200 miles or so (9 or 10 quarts of oil), I checked the plugs expecting to find lots of crusty black buildup but no, they were light brown and relatively clean. The exhausts are a sooty black.

Fellow riders on modern bikes have mentioned (complained about) burning oil fumes. On British bike rides, I have made a point of asking others to watch for smoke. Nobody reported anything abnormal.

So, I suppose your bike could be burning the oil, mine sure seems to be. I will probably just ride it that way for the time being.

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,532
Likes: 95
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,532
Likes: 95
Some thoughts on your oil consumption/leakage issues:-
- check the oil manifold has the right 'O' rings fitted, I believe some members recommend 'X' rings in this area for a better seal, I don't know the dimensions but hopefully someone will chime in.
- the overnight oil drain volume doesn't look too bad but if you're finding its ending up in the primary try parking it on the center stand rater than side stand. This will delay any drainage into the primary for a few days.
- If the clutch isn't slipping then its probably fine with the straight 40 oil you are using. Check the API grade on the can, anything lower than API SG is probably OK.
- Seems to be anyone's guess where all the oil is going. If its leaking externally an old but messy trick is to clean the engine and underside and then coat the engine with talc, hopefully any leaks will become more apparent after a couple of miles.
- if its not leaking externally then its got to be rings or guides, maybe you could try straight 50 or even 60 for a short while and see if this helps.
- check the oil pump return, it could be that the the pump is worn and not scavenging enough oil from the sump or the return pipe is somehow blocked. Is there an oil filter fitted?


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
T
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
Well, comparing the picture of the dipstick from my bike to the service sheet, it appears I have a short dipstick.

Wife's been accusing me of that for years.

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,379
Likes: 119
N
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
N
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,379
Likes: 119
Fit a bigger tank, job done!


My one used a fair bit of oil (about a pint every 500 miles or so.
It didn't smoke but was burning it i knew. The pistons were badly
corroded around the top ring grooves when i rebuilt it but i thought
i'd get away with a set of rings. (it had sat for years)
It did around 15k miles like that and i was given a set of pistons so
i put them in and it's not used any oil since.
When you get crankcase compression it will puff it out of the breather
as well as burn it, it adds up especially if ridden hard.

Last edited by NickL; 03/31/21 1:26 am.
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
T
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
Hello Forum

I am happy to report that I may have found one of the sources of my external ol leakage. Upon removing the ol return manifold I found the return passage that feeds the head and tank missing an O ring. That and the loose manifold bolt I discovered could account for a lot of the loss.

I did not fit the manifold to the case prior to mounting the engine in the frame. I had one hellofa time puzzling that thing in there. It is likely that by the time I did, that O ring had gone missing and I overlooked it.

I should be able to take it out tomorrow to check for obvious leaks. It will be a while before I attempt another spirited ride. I plan on taking it to The Texas Fandango in April 9-11. Since AMCA events were mostly cancelled last year, the club has ask everyone to get them out of hiding and put their bike in the show. They want the biggest collection of antique motorcycles in Texas. There are rides scheduled for Sunday. It would be fun to participate.

I've never been to such an event, or shown a bike, even though I didn't build it for show, it will be fun to see how it does. I recon a fair amount of cleaning and polishing are in order.

That still doesn't address the ol in the primary. Sigh... one problem at a time...

Thanks Y'all

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 7,859
Likes: 122
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 7,859
Likes: 122
Sorry if I have missed something in a previous post, but are you sure the oil in the primary is engine oil and not just oil for the primary chain?


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
T
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
Yes sir, I put ATF in the primary on assembly. Most definitely 40wt in there now.

Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
T
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
Well forum, the saga continues...

I took it out today for, what someone above referred to as, a spirited ride. I rode about 50 miles.
The good news is it appears the oil manifold is no longer leaking.
The bad news is the left side of the bike was coated in ol, I lost about a pint, perhaps more.
Upon return I found oil seeping from the inner timing cover here:
Am I correct to assume this means the timing oil seal is to blame?
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Here:
Not much to be done with these until I can jack up the engine.
Save that for winter....
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

And spewing all over the place from here:
Any tips on renewing the cap gasket?
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,034
Likes: 56
K
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
K
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,034
Likes: 56
I can’t make out what we’re looking at in the first pic.
A larger pic from the same perspective would make it clear.
If its leaking out of the timing side, why is it coating the left side of the bike?

If its spewing from the oil filler cap, I’d suggest there’s too much oil in the tank to start with. Possibly the oil tank breather to atmosphere is blocked as well.

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,379
Likes: 119
N
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
N
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,379
Likes: 119
That doesn't look like an official/original bung in that oil gallery.
They were normally a hex head plug arrangement that sat flush.
I would think someone has wound a cut down allen bolt in there.
You'll need to jack the motor up to get at it.

1 member likes this: Allan G
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,723
Likes: 132
G
Britbike forum member
Online Content
Britbike forum member
G
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,723
Likes: 132
The oil on the LHS is probably coming from the breather , the exit for this is via the camshaft timing disc then out through a hole above the gearbox sprocket . This is often a sign of excess crankcase compression caused by worn, broken or badly seated piston rings.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
T
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
I apologize forum, I've led you all astray. Major typo. It was the Right side, Timing side of the motorcycle that was coated in oil. There was very little on the Left side, Drive side.

The hole is the bottom of the timing inner case.

Yes, will have to jack up engine to address the plugs. But hope to wait till riding season is over. Why are they even there? They are not accessible?

As for overfilling, As mentioned above discussing the dipstick, 5H is high mark for A65. I confess I did not have a suitable measuring container, I intended to measure out 5 pints then compare to dipstick. I opted to fill to just under 5H with fresh ol on the center stand. I just wanted to take it out to check for leaks after addressing the oil manifold. I recon need to confirm whether the dipstick is accurate.

Upon return from spirited ride I could clearly tell oil seeped from around the tank cap, down the outside of the tank an onto the exhaust or dribbled down the feed line, and then wind blown all over creation. The Right rear foot peg was clearly sprayed.

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,379
Likes: 119
N
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
N
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,379
Likes: 119
The plugs are there as that's how they drilled the galleries.
The one at the front is the main pressure gallery and will pi$$
oil out if it isn't sealed properly and you will loose the main
oil pressure line. Do the job now, just my 2c.

Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
T
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
Yea, I hear ya Nick. I think your analogy is pretty accurate, at least at whatever RPM I'm running at 65-70+ MPH. At least that's what evidence suggest. I thought to, at least, check the plugs with some needle nose pliers, if easily turned, I will definitely have to address sooner rather than end of season.

For now I need to spend the next few days cleaning, polishing, and preparing for display at Fandango. I will decide whether to participate in the vintage bike rides on Sunday after I check on those plugs tomorrow. If those are supposed to be flush, then one of them is not far from falling out.

Thanks for explaining their purpose. Rather obvious once pointed out.

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,379
Likes: 119
N
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
N
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,379
Likes: 119
The plugs are normally 1/8 bsp or similar and have no head on them, they just sit flush with the case.
If as suspected an allen bolt has been wound in, then you'll just have to try tightening them, it won't go
in flush. You will probably end up re-drilling/tapping the holes for a suitable plug maybe 1/8 npt. or 3/8 unf.

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 7,859
Likes: 122
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 7,859
Likes: 122
Aren’t they a raper plug Nick? The ones in my oif are.

Weirdly I ordered some off Amazon, they weren’t deep enough and bottomed out before they tightened up. The ones from SRM were longer and dimensionally correct so I don’t know where they get them from???

It looks like Traceys plugs have been fitted with some PTFE tape also, or at least the uppermost one does. The correct plug with a thin smear of loctite thread seal on the threads won’t go a miss.

Tracey. With the oil tank, are you 100% it’s coming from the cap? The cap has a cork ring which can be picked out with a pick or a screw driver. And a new one popped in to place. However I’d also take the seat off, check that A, that oil isn’t coming out of the breather on the tank and B the triangular strap that’s welded to the tank hasn’t split along the welded seam as they are known to do this.

The little hole in the inner timing cover is a tell-tale hole, that’s supposed to be there. It lets you know that either the points oil seal is leaking or there is gearbox oil passing the kickstart shaft, or gearbox oil coming past the clutch actuating setup (push rod, etc) if it’s coming past the latter then there’s probably too much oil in there. Other wise is a seal for the idler gear or the bush for the kickstart quadrant is well worn.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,723
Likes: 132
G
Britbike forum member
Online Content
Britbike forum member
G
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,723
Likes: 132
Hi Tracy,
In the interest of research I looked through your previous posts. You have come a long way and stuck with it, well done.its been quite a ride.
I think you should forget about entering your bike in the show, there will be more shows in the future.
You appear to have two failed oil seals, the one behind the points and the one behind the engine sprocket, more importantly you need to properly seal the oil way drilling plugs. access to the plugs will mean removing exh pipes , motor mounts and jacking / lifting the motor to get access. The factory sealed these plugs with some sort of loctite originally, to get this to work the oil ways will need to be emptied and cleaned so the sealer goo has a chance of working. To replace the points seal the timing needs disturbed and the points AR mech, or EI rotor will have to be removed.To replace the crank drive side seal the whole primary side has to come off. At this point I would consider lifting the whole motor out so I could do the work on the bench.
All this is a fair bit of work, chin up , its only time and a little money. not something to be rushed because of a show.
if it was just the oil seals I would be happy leaving the motor in the frame, the oilway plugs are a different matter, Ive never attempted to fiddle with them with the motor in the frame, maybe jacking will be easier than complete removal. Certainly strip the primary with the motor in place, the rear brake and chain make removing the major nuts easier and anything you can do to lighten the lump will make life easier if you do decide to lift out the motor. hing in there.
PS Are you absolutely certain you have motor oil in the primary? ATF loses its red colour rapidly, is there definetly more oil in there than there should be?

Last edited by gavin eisler; 04/02/21 10:53 am.

71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
1 member likes this: Allan G
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
T
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
Originally Posted by Allan G
Tracey. With the oil tank, are you 100% it’s coming from the cap? The cap has a cork ring which can be picked out with a pick or a screw driver. And a new one popped in to place. However I’d also take the seat off, check that A, that oil isn’t coming out of the breather on the tank and B the triangular strap that’s welded to the tank hasn’t split along the welded seam as they are known to do this.

Allan: Yes, oil was clearly coming out around the cap and running down. The outside of the tank was soaked, There was even some running down the side cover. And I can tell when tightening the cap there is little resistance that would provide a seal.

My cap is not quite as you describe. The gasket is neither cork nor rubberish. Rather it is some sort of fiber material much like gasket material, only thicker.
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Since I have the later short dipstick, perhaps BSA changed the cap seal material?

Doesn't really matter, that's an easy fix.

The tank is another matter.
The triangular tab you mentioned did break off the tank. So the tank was rattling around. There is no evidence of crack or oil loss at the seam or out of the tank vent.

Eventually that tank will need to come out for repair. As a temporary repair I took a piece of oil line, sliced it open lengthwise, and with a little trimming formed a bumper around the edge of the tank. The tab broke with a bit of a lip, which hooked the rubber bumper. When tightened this configuration pulled the tank quite snugly against the frame rubbers. Seems better than banging around inside the frame.

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 11,142
Likes: 103
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 11,142
Likes: 103
You need the proper cork gasket for the cap, its a lot wider than the one in you pic.

Here's the larger version for the petrol cap.

[Linked Image from picclickimg.com]

Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
T
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
Gavin:
Thank you for spending your time in research. It has been quite a ride, still is.... I've gone from a Honda CL70, to a'79 Bonnie, to a '74 Commando, to a 30 some odd year layoff to rear offspring. The last of which is self sufficient, and now I have this 51 year old BSA that I have completely disassembled and put back together thanks to this forum.

My intention, at some point, is to post pictures and a little history about the project, Until then I'm still sorting out the difference between running, and running well. I have a fair amount of mechanical aptitude, but no formal training. I have never rebuilt an engine. I took my time and sought help when needed, which was a LOT. Most of that help came from this forum. This project would not have come this far without the resources available here.
I made mistakes, it took three attempts at every major assembly to get it right. Which is probably why the crank seals are crap. I have learned a lot, obsessed about every detail, and been bitten by the bug. My next project on my bench is a 1979 Indian moped.

As for The Texas Fandango? Well show might be too strong, how about display. Since, I think, all of the AMCA events were cancelled last year. The Cherokee Chapter is Hosting Fandango, and has ask all members to get their bikes out of the garage, and put them on display. They want to assemble the largest collection of vintage/antique motorcycles in Texas. I didn't restore this bike to show. My plan was, and still is, to ride it. Cosmetically, it's period correct enough for John Q to admire. That and, where I am, the vintage category is dominated by Harley Davidson and Indian. So British style and all that chrome kinda stand out.

It's a huge swap meet, I have 3 Honda 305 Dreams, I'd like to find someone willing to show them some love. I'm keeping an eye out for a '69 or later T100R project donor. Not for restore but platform for a custom.

Attendance is expected to be high.
There's gonna be flat track races, vintage choppers, vintage bike rides, women too young wearing shorts too tight. Texas BBQ. Hell yea I'm goin'

Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
T
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
Originally Posted by gavin eisler
You appear to have two failed oil seals, the one behind the points and the one behind the engine sprocket, more importantly you need to properly seal the oil way drilling plugs. access to the plugs will mean removing exh pipes , motor mounts and jacking / lifting the motor to get access. The factory sealed these plugs with some sort of loctite originally, to get this to work the oil ways will need to be emptied and cleaned so the sealer goo has a chance of working. To replace the points seal the timing needs disturbed and the points AR mech, or EI rotor will have to be removed.To replace the crank drive side seal the whole primary side has to come off. At this point I would consider lifting the whole motor out so I could do the work on the bench......

PS Are you absolutely certain you have motor oil in the primary? ATF loses its red colour rapidly, is there definetly more oil in there than there should be?

Thank you Gavin, you have nicely summed up and confirmed what I've been mentally coming around to. It is what it is.
I'd like to see if I can get away with jacking the engine up in the frame. With the exhaust off the release valve can come out and make cleaning those ports easier. The reality of getting to the rear mounts may change that plan.

The amount of fluid in the primary was about right, I'm guessing. I'm calling it 40wt based on odor and feel. It doesn't feel or smell like ATF.

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,532
Likes: 95
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,532
Likes: 95
Just wondering about the oil loss from the tank filler cap, maybe one explanation is that the tank is overfilled?

I'm not sure what the engine oil capacity is for a 69 A65, the workshop manuals for earlier bikes claim between 5 and 5 1/2 pints depending on which Manual you look at. This amount of oil seems excessive and more than what I put in my 68 firebird after an oil change even considering any remaining oil in the engine.

One quick fix for the filler cap sealing ring would be to remove the existing seal (which you have already done) and then fill the area in the filler cap with a thick layer of silicone and gently refit the old seal and let it dry. Hopefully, the old seal will then have sufficient thickness from the silicone backing to form a proper seal with the tank.

You can make your own filler cap seal using a sheet of fuel resistant cork/nitrile rubber, see This Link for a UK seller, I'm sure you can get it your side of the pond as well.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
T
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 221
Likes: 7
Well..... It seems I'm going to have to make a parts list, timing and drive ol seals, larger drive sprocket, an oil tank cap gasket won't add much to the order.

Since the clutch basket will need to come out. I'm probably going to access and replace the final drive sprocket with one larger. Somewhere on the forum I've seen members recommend going from 27 to 28 teeth. All that from fuzzy memory, the numbers may be off. Regardless the underlying concept is to gear it up a bit to reduce RPM and vibration at highway speeds. Seems to have plenty of torque.

I can order up parts while I get my head in the right place for such a task. If I have the parts, and get busy, I ought to be able to knock all these corrections out in a day, perhaps a weekend. The riding season is early.

Minor setback. Interesting how one needs to thrash these old beast somewhat for such issues to surface. Removing the entire primary is a pain in the, but I can clean and inspect all the plates. The kick return spring is a pain in the... Oh well, I recon that's the price you pay. I can think of far worse problems an old neophyte bike builder might encounter.

Regarding overfilling: The A65 Service Manuel I've been using for reference list 5 pints. The dipstick has a 5H mark that is, according to the service sheet posted previously, supposed to apply to A65.
The only thing left is to drain the tank, measure out 5 pints, pour that in, and see where that shows on the dipstick. Of all my problems, that's the least and easiest to address.

I'd like to be able to close the thread in a few weeks with a report of a spirited ride without hemorrhaging ol all over God's creation.

Y'all take care, ride safe.

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,723
Likes: 132
G
Britbike forum member
Online Content
Britbike forum member
G
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,723
Likes: 132
Yo Tracy, the A65 can only take a 21 tooth gearbox sprocket as a max without difficulty, a stock 650 with std rear sprocket will not pull a 22 without running out of pech ,std, was either 19 or usually 20, sometimes lower for off road work or sidecar, if you have steep hills and twisties stay at 20, if you want to make progress on straight roads 21 might be better.i hesitate to say this , a 21 will give you more relaxed cruising at 65 but it will not pull through the wind at higher speeds. I just googled Oklahoma roads, lots of straight lines, fit a 21 with low bars.

A jubilee clip to hold the kickstart spring retaining washer while you wrestle the spring on takes some of the sting out,

The oil capacity is total, not the volume of the oil tank, its very diff to drain all the oil, i would fill with 4.5 pints then top up if needed after a run.

Check your oil tank breather is not plugged ,you have insects that like open ended pipes, oil froth neats space dont overfill, even with a bad cap seal you should not see much spew, I have made decent seals from thick leather at a push, grease it up with bacon fat.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Allan G, Jon W. Whitley 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Job CycleBritish Cycle SupplyMorries PlaceKlempf British PartsPodtronicVintage MagazineBSA Unit SinglesBritBike SponsorBritish Tools & FastenersBritBike SponsorBritBike Sponsor






© 1996-2021 britbike.com
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5