Classic British SparesKlempf British PartsBaxter CycleBritBike Sponsor SteadfastCyclesSRM EngineeringLucas Classic MotorcycleHepolite PistonsIndustrial tec supply

Upgrade your membership to: Premium Membership | Gold Membership | Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Welcome to BritBike Forum!
Britbike forum logo
Member Spotlight
BeezaBryan
BeezaBryan
Derbyshire UK
Posts: 3,501
Joined: April 2006
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 172
Likes: 9
BAinLA Offline OP
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 172
Likes: 9
I sent a letter off to an address I found on a free website for a guy with the same name as the original owner (1972-1995) 2500 miles (~4000 Km.) away from his last known address shown on the last registration card. Fingers crossed for a couple weeks now. I asked if it had the upgraded transmission. The address site stated that he is now 75 years old.

Today I got a long E-mail reply!! He says that when the bike (1972 TR6RV) was just out of warranty, he shifted into 2nd going around a corner and the gear broke and locked up the transmission. Here is some of what what he said in the E-mail;

"There is a bit of a story to the upgrade:
While I was still living in Laramie, Wyoming, and when the Triumph was just out of warranty, the transmission failed. I had just returned to Laramie after a trip to Denver, Colorado; and while rounding a corner just 1/2 block from my apartment, I shifted into 2nd gear; the gear broke, and the transmission locked (fortunately at low speed). After sliding to a stop, I held the clutch open while I pushed the bike home. The guys at Frontier Cycles were very helpful in convincing Triumph to cover the upgrade kit under warranty (but not the labor to install it). The upgrade kit consisted of first, second and third speed gears (each a bit thicker than the original gears) which were drop in replacements. The wrinkle was that Triumph had changed ownership during that time, and their part numbering system was changed. There was a kit number for the upgrade which we kept hearing was on backorder. The backorder situation continued for (as I recall) about 21 months. It was only when the owner of Frontier Cycles was at a motorcycle rally in Texas that he bumped into a Vice President of Triumph Motorcycles, and told him the story of the backorder. Well, it turns out, that all the parts had been on the shelf in California all the time; just not stocked as a kit. The Vice President gave his business card to the owner of Frontier Cycles, and told him to call the warehouse again; and that if he was told again that the kit was on backorder that he should tell them what the Vice President had said. This time the phone call was put on hold for a few minutes and sure enough, all the parts were there; and were shipped that same day. I installed the upgrade kit, and rode the bike a fair number of miles after that (i.e. in Wyoming, Colorado, then in San Diego and Ventura County California)."

He adds; "An interesting side note:
A professor of Mechanical Engineering at the University of Wyoming talked me out of the broken gear, and used it for his classes as an example of a weak gear design. He said it was a "classic" gear failure."


What a break for me. I've been driving very carefully and wondering if it would finally break just as I was leaned way over on a mountain road, 500 foot cliff on the outside. Well, I'm still going to be careful because any transmission can fail, especially one that has had a lot of water in there as this one had.

Anyway, I'm totally jazzed to hear this and to have this connection to the original owner (who sold it to a co-worker who let it sit outside until I rescued it last year).
Brian *Should I post this in my reso thread too?*

Last edited by BAinLA; 03/21/21 1:59 pm.

"There goes that old fool on his piece of junk"
1972 TR6RV
2 members like this: Chip H, jimmymckenna
Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!

Check out British motorcycles for sale: British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,373
Likes: 37
D
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
D
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,373
Likes: 37
I had the same experience 30 years ago. Seems to me I had to switch to thinner shift forks also. Many happy miles since. Nicest shifting Triumph I've ever owned. Smooth and a very short throw.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 172
Likes: 9
BAinLA Offline OP
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 172
Likes: 9
Originally Posted by desco
I had the same experience 30 years ago. Seems to me I had to switch to thinner shift forks also. Many happy miles since. Nicest shifting Triumph I've ever owned. Smooth and a very short throw.

I agree 100%. I have been riding it for 800 miles and I still marvel at how good the shifts are.

I'm sure he had all of the kit parts installed, I have his handwritten list from that period which shows Layshaft 1st gear selector fork etc. I just didn't know if he ever got them installed. Now I know for sure!

Did you go down when yours failed? -Brian

Last edited by BAinLA; 03/21/21 12:43 am.

"There goes that old fool on his piece of junk"
1972 TR6RV
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,373
Likes: 37
D
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
D
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,373
Likes: 37
Go down, no. Fishtail short stop. Not far from home, 20 miles or so, stuck out the thumb and got home to get the truck. Anyone who owns a Triumph should also own a truck and a thumb. Lived in Orange Co. Ca. at the time. No matter where I live most people are happy to pick up someone with his thumb out next to a broken down Triumph. And most people go out of their way to take me all the way home.

Last edited by desco; 03/21/21 1:36 am. Reason: addition

1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,158
Likes: 133
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,158
Likes: 133
Mine broke the lay shaft a few months back, clean break between fourth and high gear. Upon inspection it appeared that the upgrade had been half done. There was scarring inside the inner cover which indicated that the infamous first-gear dog had exploded, but the dog in there was the newer one.
Turned out the high rear bearing on the main shaft was falling apart, but I got away with just a new lay shaft, complete with 4th and high gears, and the new bearing and high gear for the main shaft. Everything else was up to new standards.
My '72 Trident gearbox is still a mystery. It's an October of '72 five speed and might have come from the factory built to '73 standards.


Knowledge speaks. Wisdom listens.

72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 209
Likes: 17
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 209
Likes: 17
Hello DavidP,
Sounds like your gearbox had all of the CP1000 upgrades done back in the day. The improved layshaft with circlip location of the high gear came into production late in the '73 model year, it was never part of an upgrade kit. Likewise, the mainshaft high gear has to be changed to the later one, as the bearing for the early type was supposed to be paired with the gear, and has been unavailable for eons anyway. Keep your fingers crossed on the Trident, but for the sake of a gasket and mainshaft lockwasher, I'd be having a look. I just did a quick strip/check of two 5 speed converted pre-unit boxes, and one of them was missing the circlip that locates the layshaft 1st gear dog - you just never do know what people will do in ignorance!

Last edited by TinkererToo; 03/21/21 1:33 pm. Reason: clarity
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 172
Likes: 9
BAinLA Offline OP
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 172
Likes: 9
Originally Posted by DavidP
Mine broke the lay shaft a few months back, clean break between fourth and high gear. Upon inspection it appeared that the upgrade had been half done. There was scarring inside the inner cover which indicated that the infamous first-gear dog had exploded, but the dog in there was the newer one.
Turned out the high rear bearing on the main shaft was falling apart, but I got away with just a new lay shaft, complete with 4th and high gears, and the new bearing and high gear for the main shaft. Everything else was up to new standards.
My '72 Trident gearbox is still a mystery. It's an October of '72 five speed and might have come from the factory built to '73 standards.

Do you suppose the early (first) failure somehow damaged the layshaft? Do these layshafts just break from "normal" use ( not dumping the clutch to get wheel spin or wheelies, improper shifts Etc.) This is my first 5-speed and I am a sponge for info on it. Thx -Brian


"There goes that old fool on his piece of junk"
1972 TR6RV
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,158
Likes: 133
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,158
Likes: 133
Originally Posted by BAinLA
Do you suppose the early (first) failure somehow damaged the layshaft? Do these layshafts just break from "normal" use ( not dumping the clutch to get wheel spin or wheelies, improper shifts Etc.) This is my first 5-speed and I am a sponge for info on it. Thx -Brian
I have no idea about that. I did find a couple of loose rollers in the MS high gear bearing. The high gear itself was the early part number. Maybe they replaced the bearing with the new part because it's the only one available? Just because the two parts are, "incompatible," doesn't mean that someone won't use them together.
I'm guessing that the worn high gear bearing caused enough slop to stress the lay shaft at that point.
I was just returning from a nice ride, about 80 miles. There was no indication of trouble when, BINK, I had only top gear available. The gearbox made no horrible sound when trying to select other gears, it just failed to propel the machine in any gear but top, which doesn't involve the lay shaft.
At least I got fixed with only $500 worth of parts instead of replacing everything.


Knowledge speaks. Wisdom listens.

72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 164
Likes: 5
D
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
D
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 164
Likes: 5
Originally Posted by BAinLA
Originally Posted by DavidP
Mine broke the lay shaft a few months back, clean break between fourth and high gear. Upon inspection it appeared that the upgrade had been half done. There was scarring inside the inner cover which indicated that the infamous first-gear dog had exploded, but the dog in there was the newer one.
Turned out the high rear bearing on the main shaft was falling apart, but I got away with just a new lay shaft, complete with 4th and high gears, and the new bearing and high gear for the main shaft. Everything else was up to new standards.
My '72 Trident gearbox is still a mystery. It's an October of '72 five speed and might have come from the factory built to '73 standards.

Do you suppose the early (first) failure somehow damaged the layshaft? Do these layshafts just break from "normal" use ( not dumping the clutch to get wheel spin or wheelies, improper shifts Etc.) This is my first 5-speed and I am a sponge for info on it. Thx -Brian

Just suffered a 3rd gear mainshaft broken tooth with a damaged needle roller closed layshaft bearing (due to PO i assume)

Having not been ridden for a few months and having recently finished a clutch re-build very surprised to find hardly any oil in the primary chain case and plates dry,is 150mm oil enough confused
The motor doesn't leak oil and the crankcase breather holes were clear,i think it will be a few twitchy months before i get confident with the bike again.


Always remember there are 3 kinds of people in this world,those that can count & those that can't.
T140V 1974
GT750 1974
GT550 1974
TL1000 97s
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,373
Likes: 37
D
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
D
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,373
Likes: 37
35 years ago, when I first bought my 72, I too was concerned about the small amount of oil in the primary. When I filled the primary with the proscribed amount of oil (the shop Manual is wrong) it would soon be sucked into the crank case and pumped back to the oil tank which then over flowed. I'd take the cover off and there was very little oil left. Drove me nuts for months. Finally talked to my parts guy and he said not worry. There is mist of oil that comes through the unsealed main bearing and that's what kept the chain lubed. To prove it to myself I again took the cover off and hung a piece of cardboard about an inch away from all the moving parts. Fired the bike up and sure enough with in less than minute the cardboard was dripping oil. Put it all back together and have not thought about it since.

Last edited by desco; 03/28/21 2:57 pm.

1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
1 member likes this: MarksterTT
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 209
Likes: 17
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 209
Likes: 17
FWIW the Triumph clutch is actually a dry clutch that doesn't mind a bit of oil. Any oil in the primary chaincase is purely for lubricating the chain. Remember that the earlier primaries did not have the oil blowing through the main bearing, and providing the whole thing wasn't leaking, it worked fine

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 164
Likes: 5
D
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
D
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 164
Likes: 5
Originally Posted by desco
35 years ago, when I first bought my 72, I too was concerned about the small amount of oil in the primary. When I filled the primary with the proscribed amount of oil (the shop manual is wrong) it would soon be sucked into the crank case and pumped back to the oil tank which then over flowed. I'd take the cover off and there was very little oil left. Drove me nuts for months. Finally talked to my parts guy and he said not worry. There is mist of oil that comes through the unsealed main bearing and that's what kept the chain lubed. To prove it to myself I again took the cover off and hung a piece of cardboard about an inch away from all the moving parts. Fired the bike up and sure enough with in less than minute the cardboard was dripping oil. Put it all back together and have not thought about it since.

Ok Desco but i still generally like to see a fair chunk of the oil i put in as to what's drained down, trust me there was very little come out the primary and ain't these suppose to be self leveling frown


Always remember there are 3 kinds of people in this world,those that can count & those that can't.
T140V 1974
GT750 1974
GT550 1974
TL1000 97s
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,373
Likes: 37
D
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
D
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,373
Likes: 37
I usually get a couple of tablespoons or so. In 35 years that bike has seen five western states, Baja California Mexico and mainland Mexico. All on two tablespoons of oil. In all those years no one has been able to explain how the oil gets up to the three little holes to drain back into the crank case. Or what self leveling means and what that level should be. You can worry about it or go for a ride.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 65
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 65
Hi All, I started really paying attention to this about 7 years ago.

The level is very interesting. Open highway riding at 60+ will lower level. City & low speed riding will raise level. A good 1/2"+ more than normal...

You can very reliably check primary oil with a dip stick through filler hole. Stick rod, screw driver or the like down hole behind chain. You'll feel your way to bottom of chain case. Very easy to do & not a fight or fiddle. Average, more common level will be 1/2. I've checked this many times on many bikes. That is a good average. 1/4" lower from high speed riding not a problem.

Half inch is about 150cc or so. However only about 135 cc can be drained. About 15cc will remain due to the webs for screw holes the gasket traps some to cover side as well. So I measure what is drained & add what I took out.

Higher speeds like 55-65+ will lower oil level in about 10-15 miles. But it doesn't fill nearly as fast in slow or city riding. Often 20+ miles.

Here's an interesting oddity. Running bike on side stand will lower reservoir oil very quickly. A few seconds even. I will often NOT shut off motor for quick business restroom brake. Oil will drop in my frame a good 2" in 15-30 seconds. Putting bike on center stand it raises slightly like 1/2 as motor sump empties in 15-20 seconds. But again takes a good 10+ miles to get the remaining oil back if frame. Center stand is not option on soft dirt side of road.

Please do this experiment. Ride bike until heat soaked. Pull over, put on side stand, remove oil cap on frame, look in with flash light & tell me what you see level do? Do it quickly.

I always check oil level hot after ride. Keep it at bottom of threads of filler neck hot, more or less.... But.... I've learned sometimes it's down an inch or less don't add unless next ride will be some hundred or more miles. Suppose it's an inch down. Next week I go for 60-100 mile ride. Check as usual. Now level is even or only 1/4" below. Needless to say over filling means overflowing hot & a mess to clean.

I used to drain primary from chain adjuster plug. Now I have 9" long piece of 1/4 brass or aluminum tube & length of 1/4" clear hose. Both from Ace Hardware. I stick tube down filler hole to bottom. Suck hose & start siphon. Siphon oil into baby bottle marked oz & cc. Even with hot oil doesn't suck that fast, but works quite well. Very simple. I have another "new oil" baby bottle to fill with. You know exactly how much to put in. Simple & safe. No more over filling or over flowing of frame. Tip, stick a long piece of bailing wire into hose so it keeps its shape & will be easy to keep in bottle without knocking it over.
Don


1973 Tiger 750

Moderated by  John Healy 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Job CycleBritish Cycle SupplyMorries PlaceKlempf British PartsPodtronicVintage MagazineBSA Unit SinglesBritBike SponsorBritish Tools & FastenersBritBike SponsorBritBike Sponsor






© 1996-2021 britbike.com
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5