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Gordon Gray
Gordon Gray
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Hi TR7RV man. I forget what to call you for short. This is my first time here, and as chance would have it, you described my last problem perfectly. A slipping clutch that is not discernible in any other way will make the bike very hard to kick start even by Igor. It is very hard to believe but it is true, and it caused me so many difficulties, including falling on my head and breaking stuff.


Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
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Hi by our, Thanks for bringing that up. Odd how one often doesn’t feel or perceive clutch slipping.

My hunch is they slip slows flywheel during compression. This can lead to kicking back as well.

This is actually what lead me to measuring stack height of plates & coming up with way to set spring tension on used plates, or ones slightly thinner than factory on new play which is not uncommon. Trial & error is too much work.
Don


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Hi, Regarding kicker not engaging piñon first attempt, that is pretty much normal depending on where gears stop. Usually a 2nd or 3rd stab on lever will engage. Triumph changed the short tooth on crescent gear to improve, but still happens. Every 650, 750 twin I’ve ridden much does this. Only a few times I had to put in gear & rotate trans. Scared me each time... I though something bad happened.

I don’t think there’s cure.

I’ve never ridden 500 with the internal ratchet. I doubt they do that.??
Don


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Don, I think you are absolutely right. If you can not get that mass of flywheel turning you are done. Pack a lunch. Now what causes that slipping to start and be undiscovered is another question. Someone once suggested that you needed to adjust that primary adjustment each year after the bike is put back in service. I can not see why. The lump of metal should not have changed just sitting there. Bloody lump of metal has been the bane of my existence. I will never become a good enough mechanic to deal with all its issues. If you can get it rolling it does not take much at all to get it rolling. In other words it should not take much at all, just a swinging down push. If it takes more something is wrong.

Last edited by btour; 03/10/21 9:51 pm.

Bob, Lifetime bike: '71 T120R, bought in '71 at Ken Heanes, England.
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Ha, A Triumph is not a big twin, try kicking an old Iron head Sportster.....I'm a lightweight and can put my full weight on the kicker and it barely moves as the compression leaks down.
I need to rise up in a jump with my knee cocked then come down with weight on the right leg while straightening the leg..


You've just described perfectly the technique I use on my T140. I can stand on the kickstarter and eventually it will creep down a little. A really energetic, hefty jab with all my body weight behind it will start it first time. Some Triumphs have a lot more compression than others.


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Hi All, How many of you clock the kicker to horizontal before kicking?

It really works! I know on paper you loose the 2nd compression stroke. If fact that is correct. However the additional rpm from the greater leverage more than makes up for it.

I’ve started several motors after bore, hone, rings job. They certainly turn over with more friction than broken in motor, but not that much. I’ll say not very much.

I’ve started 10.5 cr Triumuph. Kicks hard but doable. I’ve started hundreds of Iron head Sportsters. First year Super glide with short kicker lever. That one got me!! Old 74s & 45s are actually easy starting. I mean before Electra Glides.

Triumphs are great starters. If owner has problems, they haven’t learned the drill or somethings wrong. Mike’s case I don’t know. Hope he will reply with an update.

I’m only 5’-7” 155#. I’m too much a pip squeak to start bike with stand folded. I’ll keep bike on side or center stand. I just have to. Even clocking kicker to horizontal it’s very risky for me to drop bike during starting. I’ve seen a few drop bike. Truth be told 100% of guys in my riding group start bike on stand. 90-95% of what I see in club rides start on stand.

I know it can damage stand. In most cases it works fine. I’ve covered 37 k on this bike & 30k on the former Triumph. Stands held up ok.
What if Mike put wood under tires & used center stand? Or just used center stand no wood & try it?

If clutch was slipping so bad it can’t turn over, they kicker would be at bottom without passing compression, that would show clutch issue. Mike seems to state it won’t kick through at all.
Don


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Kicking from horizontal pedal position was in Pre-Unit manuals.


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Hi Mike,
I'm going to make an assumption that your kicker isn't 'locking up' since you say when you pull the plugs it kicks through ok. Even a 10.5-1 cr 750 kitted 650 is an easy kick start if it has an aftermarket late closing intake cam, easier starting than a 9-1cr stock 650 with stock cams...intake cam closing makes a big difference in kick starting rpm's effort. Your T140 intake cam, if timed as designed, is a pretty late closing cam so should be an easy kicker but if advanced for better midrange or by mistake would make the kick start effort higher, noticeably so in my experience but this is kind of a long shot and the T140 isn't a high compression engine but with a new bore it would require a bit more effort.

The locked up kicker may also be something that is mitigated by not having compression to force the issue once you've pulled the plugs...just a thought that was rattling around in my head from 50 year old experiences that may or may not have any basis in reality but thought I'd throw that out. Mark R.

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Originally Posted by TR7RVMan
Hi All, How many of you clock the kicker to horizontal before kicking?

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I shall be trying this, thanks Don. Perhaps also allows for checking that the kickstart mechanism hasn't locked up? The "lock-up" is a swine when it happens.

With the ignition off, can't most engines be turned over slowly by standing on the kickstart? The gases creeping past the rings.

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Hi Dibnah, Yes, but I find it’s very slow. I’ve felt this kicking slowly many times setting points. Didn’t want bother removing plugs. Then accurately align cam with rear wheel. I do that in valve adjustment sometimes as well.
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I agree with Tim, except that I would nudge it backwards just a bit in first gear, then neutral, then try. Just another suggestion. Good luck!

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